The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

[Thunderrr-mental]

You need to read Revelation 13 those names are only for anyone who takes Mark of the Beast.

Maybe you read all of this, you may then understand everyone is elected untill unelected 🙂

Revelation 3:5
Verse Concepts
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It says all names are in the book of life until erased 🙂


Exodus 32:31-33
Then Moses returned to the Lord, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!” The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book

This spells it out completely the names are in until blotted out

Psalm 69:27-28
Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Again all names are in untill blotted out

Again all life is in untill blotted out


And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

All life is in the book of life untill removed


And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

All life is in the book of life untill removed

Luke 10:20
Verse Concepts
Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

All names are in the book of life

Until blotted out





Daniel 12:1
Verse Concepts
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

All names that haven't been removed

Again it speaks about only the life that has been kept in the book of life which is all those who have given to his life




Philippians 4:3
Verse Concepts
Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Again it speaks about those who haven't been removed .

Revelation 3:5
Verse Concepts
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Again all names are.in the book of life untill removed

Revelation 21:27
Verse Concepts
and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


Again only those names who have not been removed

Exodus 32:31-33
Then Moses returned to the Lord, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!” The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book


Again all names are in untill blotted out

Psalm 69:27-28
Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Again all life is in untill blotted out

Revelation 13:8
Verse Concepts
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Again all life is in until blotted out

Revelation 17:8
Verse Concepts
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Again all life is in until blotted out



Psalm 56:8
Verse Concepts
You have taken account of my wanderings;
Put my tears in Your bottle.
Are they not in Your book?


Again all names are in until blotted out

Psalm 139:16
Verse Concepts
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

Every life has been alloted an amount of time therefore all life.is.in until blotted out

Malachi 3:16
Verse Concepts
Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, and the Lord gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the Lord and who esteem His name.

All life is in until blotted out.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Maybe you read all of this, you may then understand everyone is elected untill unelected 🙂

Revelation 3:5
Verse Concepts
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It says all names are in the book of life until erased 🙂


Exodus 32:31-33
Then Moses returned to the Lord, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!” The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book

This spells it out completely the names are in until blotted out

Psalm 69:27-28
Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Again all names are in untill blotted out

Again all life is in untill blotted out


And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

All life is in the book of life untill removed


And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

All life is in the book of life untill removed

Luke 10:20
Verse Concepts
Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

All names are in the book of life

Until blotted out





Daniel 12:1
Verse Concepts
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

All names that haven't been removed

Again it speaks about only the life that has been kept in the book of life which is all those who have given to his life




Philippians 4:3
Verse Concepts
Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Again it speaks about those who haven't been removed .

Revelation 3:5
Verse Concepts
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Again all names are.in the book of life untill removed

Revelation 21:27
Verse Concepts
and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


Again only those names who have not been removed

Exodus 32:31-33
Then Moses returned to the Lord, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!” The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book


Again all names are in untill blotted out

Psalm 69:27-28
Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Again all life is in untill blotted out

Revelation 13:8
Verse Concepts
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Again all life is in until blotted out

Revelation 17:8
Verse Concepts
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Again all life is in until blotted out



Psalm 56:8
Verse Concepts
You have taken account of my wanderings;
Put my tears in Your bottle.
Are they not in Your book?


Again all names are in until blotted out

Psalm 139:16
Verse Concepts
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

Every life has been alloted an amount of time therefore all life.is.in until blotted out

Malachi 3:16
Verse Concepts
Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, and the Lord gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the Lord and who esteem His name.

All life is in until blotted out.

I am aware of the other verses which is why I made my post about Revelation 13 because it shows us something unlike the others.

 

[Cameron143]

I know, it's quite possible the residents sent you of track tho 😋

There's some things you shouldn't try to understand 🙂

I know it's your good intension to want to understand and reason with understanding, to gain trust in people which can be a good approach,

But in doing so you can end up becoming what you associate with 🙂

You don't get it.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I am aware of the other verses which is why I made my post about Revelation 13 because it shows us something unlike the others.

Ok but im not sure this should be denied by anyone once they've seen it, and had time to contemplate on it.

It means everyone is elected until unelected

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It means everyone is in the book of life until blotted out.

It also means his life exists is in all men fallen and saved.

Then whilst where here

Maybe we can see the life of all mankind was created in one man in heaven first, his life the spiritual heavenly life of all mankind created in one man Adam in heaven first, before earth 🙂


Genesis 1:27-28

New International Version



27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.

Also whist where here maybe we can see why every man is given knowledge and choice first, in the hope they surrender to the knowledge they have been given beforehand

Not out of choice but out of believing 🙂
.it's all about the surrender

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You don't get it.

I did get the wit of what you said 🙂

I just wanted you to know I was being witty to welcoming you back to planet earth 🙂

As we are to be in the earth but not of the earth.

It so easy to go of to button moon with that one 😋

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Just curious…. Where did you ever see a post where Selah said there was a “distinction“ between the elect and those “saved by free choice”?

I've seen you thumb up Selah's other posts in the past for as long as she has been here. I don't know if you're either another account of hers or a a friend, but I'm not surprised that you are like her. If you're going to act like she hasn't posted a distinction, just like she has, then I'm not going to bother pointing out all the posts here and in the other thread.

It's really weird that both of you think denying the distinction she made won't be seen by other people on here and the other thread. Christians shouldn't try to deceive other people, especially when the evidence of such posts are all here.


🍓

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

‘What??!? Paul was definitely NOT willing. He had an official letter in his pocket giving him permission to persecute and take Christians captive.

You're talking out of context and therefore replying with an answer that doesn't fit the discussion. Read the posts over again. I'm not going to let you misdirect the discussion. You're as dishonest as she is.


🍓

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Yes, you most definitely have, even down to the capital letters for IS.

No she hasn't. And now I know you're not honest either.

It's one thing when things go well that people can act Christianly, but when under pressure does the real person come out. I'm really surprised that you and Selah would act this way when God calls us to treat this in a more godly manner.

Selah (which is probably you as well) was wrong to state that distinction. But instead of being humble and repentant, she/you denied, deflected, and falsely accused as if other people can't read the false claims she/you have made.

What is the point of being Christian if you're not going to submit to the Holy Spirit in obedience to Him in ALL things?


🍓

 

[BeeBlessed]

@2ndTimeIsTheCharm …. (audible sigh). I am so sorry that you believe that by defending or reacting positively to someone’s post, I must actually BE that person. Good grief! So…. Are you Niki? (I don‘t really believe you are. You two have distinctly different writing styles. I just want to point out the ridiculousness of such an accusation.) And, by the way, I’ve reacted positively to many of your posts in the past.

Yes, Selah and I are friends and sisters in Christ, and have been for more than twenty years. That’s just about the only thing you have right regarding my reactions to her posts. She and I have been blessed to be able to study together almost every day for the entire span of our friendship. When we have disagreed (and we have), we’ve simply prayed and dug into the scripture for greater understanding. Regarding election, we are in agreement.

I think the problem in this thread, and the other that you and Niki have referred to, is a misunderstanding of the word “distinction.” All of God’s elect are equal in His sight, no matter how they were drawn to him. They are His church.

This entire thread was begun as a gossipy attempt to assassinate the character of a fellow believer. Every accusation you and Niki have made here is something you both are guilty of. In fact, EVERY person in the flesh has at times made false accusations because of misunderstandings. It’s a common sin, and I’m sure I’ve done it myself. It’s too easy to misinterpret tone in someone else’s writing. And it’s all too easy to mischaracterize someone’s understanding of scripture—because, frankly, most people don’t express themselves very well in writing—and/or they don’t take the time to read well.

I pray that we all put this foolishness to rest and continue to serve the Lord as we’ve been blessed. May our Father be blessed by our behavior in Him. That’s the only way we will convince anyone else that we are in Him.

 

[BeeBlessed]

(Aside). I wonder why it is that even Christian people want to believe the worst of each other—especially considering that we all come to the Lord at our worst.

 

[selahsays]

Good morning, Thunder.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Good morning, Thunder. View attachment 263358

Good morning selah 🙂.

Thanks for making me smile again as always 🙂

☕☕☕☕💎💎💎💎

 

[selahsays]

(Aside). I wonder why it is that even Christian people want to believe the worst of each other—especially considering that we all come to the Lord at our worst.

See ya at the gym in a few. Let’s pump some iron, girl!

 

[selahsays]

Good morning selah 🙂.

Thanks for making me smile again as always 🙂 View attachment 263359

☕☕☕☕💎💎💎💎

Luvs ya!

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Luvs ya! View attachment 263362

chuckles ❤️

 

[Evmur]

I don't know. This thread evolved out of another wherein someone said that the elect are chosen by God and have no choice in salvation and the rest of us poor beggars are free to choose. When I asked for proof scriptures, I was given a mashup of unrealted verses that supposedly indicated that belief.

If you do re-find that site, I would be interested to take a look.

Thanks for your input...there are some very strange beliefs out there and they keep popping up.

Only in the Sovereign Grace stream of theology is the doctrine of the WIDER MERCY possible. God can save who He wants, when He wants, and how He wants.

I keep saying

Something has been taken out of the gospel and is missing, it is there a clear as your nose in the bible. What has been taken out of the gospel by both Calvin and Arminius and before them by Luther and before Luther by Augustine is the MILLENNIUM.

The Millennium IS the Kingdom of God, we are told to go preach [announce] the Kingdom of God. Instead we preach Heaven or hell, but the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth we do not preach. Jesus said "all power in heaven and on earth is given unto Me ... go ye therefore and announce the good news to every creature"

Now when we preach Heaven and Hell we are preaching ethereal, mysticism. Nobody knows or can imagine what these might be, real though they are. But everyone can know what Heaven on Earth would be like. That's why we are accused of preaching " pie in the sky in the sweet bye and bye"

The Kingdom of Heaven on Earth IS coming, and the kingdom's great King is coming. The Millennium IS coming.

Now the church no doubt is the heavenly part, our destiny and longtime home is certainly in Heaven. THAT'S what is predestined, that's what our election is unto. It is not unto salvation per se but unto the higher calling.

others can still be saved. There is still an earth to gain and there will be a NEW Heavens and a NEW Earth. And they will be united in Christ.

The meek [sayeth Jesus] shall inherit the earth.

This Gospel will turn the world upside down.

 

[homwardbound]

not sure what you mean by 'God has chosen all to be saved'?

2 Peter 3:9

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

The Lord is not slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to be lost, ...

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Only in the Sovereign Grace stream of theology is the doctrine of the WIDER MERCY possible. God can save who He wants, when He wants, and how He wants.

I keep saying

Something has been taken out of the gospel and is missing, it is there a clear as your nose in the bible. What has been taken out of the gospel by both Calvin and Arminius and before them by Luther and before Luther by Augustine is the MILLENNIUM.

The Millennium IS the Kingdom of God, we are told to go preach [announce] the Kingdom of God. Instead we preach Heaven or hell, but the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth we do not preach. Jesus said "all power in heaven and on earth is given unto Me ... go ye therefore and announce the good news to every creature"

Now when we preach Heaven and Hell we are preaching ethereal, mysticism. Nobody knows or can imagine what these might be, real though they are. But everyone can know what Heaven on Earth would be like. That's why we are accused of preaching " pie in the sky in the sweet bye and bye"

The Kingdom of Heaven on Earth IS coming, and the kingdom's great King is coming. The Millennium IS coming.

Now the church no doubt is the heavenly part, our destiny and longtime home is certainly in Heaven. THAT'S what is predestined, that's what our election is unto. It is not unto salvation per se but unto the higher calling.

others can still be saved. There is still an earth to gain and there will be a NEW Heavens and a NEW Earth. And they will be united in Christ.

The meek [sayeth Jesus] shall inherit the earth.

This Gospel will turn the world upside down.

I'm not sure but I have strong feeling thats what missing the most is the fact The Gospel is mostly about people's individual walks for most part. And for a lot of part people who have reached a high level of maturity in faith, or a high level of righteousness.

For most the bible it spoken by ministers people who have achieve a fast amount of knowledge from God, that one to many people expect other people to live up to there standards.

I really believe that what is missing above all is not seeing each person individual experience and encounter With
God as unique to them , as Gods voice speaks to all,.both saved and unsaved.

I believe one to many people forget this and try to be the person there reading which is a minister for most part, I think we all have to respect our place and standing before God first most, this seems to be missing alot


Mostly the bible Is about ministers proclaiming to each individual.

I feal one must be ordained by God himself to be a minister.

But obviously we can proclaim and minister to each other, buts it not with the same authority, obviously that ministers ordained by the lord have, and we have to respect that.



But however in the case of marriage one can be the father figure kind of like a loving husband and father, so it's kind of like being a minister as such,

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.

I believe the scriptures teach that there are far more of the elect than those who are not (Hosea 1:10) Isaiah 10::22).(Heb 11:12-16)

Jacob, who is surnamed Israel represents "spiritual Israel" (Isaiah 45:4)

The scriptures do teach that it is God's choice, not mankind's choice, who is to be saved eternally (Eph 1:4) (Eph 2:1-9) (John 6:37) (Heb 2:13) (John 10:27-29)

Accepting Christ as their Savor is a choice that only the, spiritually, born again person can make, for the natural man, before he has been born spiritually, will not, and indeed, can not accept anything of a spiritual nature, thinking them to be foolishness.(1 Cor 2:14).

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I believe the scriptures teach that there are far more of the elect than those who are not (Hosea 1:10) Isaiah 10::22).(Heb 11:12-16)

Jacob, who is surnamed Israel represents "spiritual Israel" (Isaiah 45:4)

The scriptures do teach that it is God's choice, not mankind's choice, who is to be saved eternally (Eph 1:4) (Eph 2:1-9) (John 6:37) (Heb 2:13) (John 10:27-29)

Accepting Christ as their Savor is a choice that only the, spiritually, born again person can make, for the natural man, before he has been born spiritually, will not, and indeed, can not accept anything of a spiritual nature, thinking them to be foolishness.(1 Cor 2:14).

Yes I agree with what your saying for most part.

Although one very important aspect is missing.

Is that each individual is given the choice inwardly,.

Scripture proclaims the lord your Gods voice speaks to all.

Directly to the heart, so the word is planted as a seed and a choice, and all knowledge and time is alloted by God to each individual.

But most importantly only certain amount of time is alloted to each individually,.which really very important to dwell on and appreciate the meaning of that.

Because with such an alloted amount of time has to be a time of being elected to be saved to.



So does each person only believe each choice, by surrendering to the choice given


Where as you could say we still have to choose, which really is just another way of saying you must surrender.

I can't see anyone choosing anything with out a choice being given to anyone in the first place.

So why should choosing hold more water to surrendering, it makes no sense, seeing as scripture proclaims God will help you to choose


As it goes none is perfect so there for the choice has to be tried in all I would say.

But ultimatly choosing choice over surrendering to choice seems seems overlooked to me.