The doctrine of election and reprobation

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K

kaylagrl

Guest
#181
#181
MarkWilliams said:
Great verses, but there are many others which say that one cannot lose his salvation. Only God knows who will and who won't, we may be sure of our own but we can never be sure of others. If we clearly see the fruits of the Holy Spirit working in our lives, then we can conclude that we are on the narrow path that leads to eternal life.
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You cannot lose your salvation,but you can walk away. Let me give you an example.

We had a pastor and wife that pastored my home church. Great people. They came in to a church spit and got the church back on its feet. We saw new people come to church,people were saved.We were close friends with them. Wonderful preaching,old time preaching. I moved to the US and kept in touch by FB. A few months ago I noticed she seemed to be upset and depressed.When I asked her if I could pray for her she broke down and told me her husband had had an affair with a worship leader. She is 30 he is 55. Not only did he have an affair he told his wife that he didn't see a problem,that he could satisfy them both sexually.

I knew this pastor on a personal level.I was very close to them when they pastored the church as I was in ministry at that time. For someone to tell me that he was never saved in the first place is complete nonsense. The man chose to walk away from God's grace. Everyone who knows the man is utterly shocked. I've never seen him hug another woman other than his wife. I was in their home,often. And I know he was saved. Salvation is a free gift and you can refuse it,you can know the truth and walk away. The parable of the sower and the seeds proves that point.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#182
#182
kaylagrl said:
You cannot lose your salvation,but you can walk away. Let me give you an example.

We had a pastor and wife that pastored my home church. Great people. They came in to a church spit and got the church back on its feet. We saw new people come to church,people were saved.We were close friends with them. Wonderful preaching,old time preaching. I moved to the US and kept in touch by FB. A few months ago I noticed she seemed to be upset and depressed.When I asked her if I could pray for her she broke down and told me her husband had had an affair with a worship leader. She is 30 he is 55. Not only did he have an affair he told his wife that he didn't see a problem,that he could satisfy them both sexually.

I knew this pastor on a personal level.I was very close to them when they pastored the church as I was in ministry at that time. For someone to tell me that he was never saved in the first place is complete nonsense. The man chose to walk away from God's grace. Everyone who knows the man is utterly shocked. I've never seen him hug another woman other than his wife. I was in their home,often. And I know he was saved. Salvation is a free gift and you can refuse it,you can know the truth and walk away. The parable of the sower and the seeds proves that point.
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let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

If he was saved, he still is saved, although the chastening he must be getting from God must be pretty severe. especially as a man who has been given the office of pastor.

Saved people are not exempt from falling into sins,
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#183
#183
MarkWilliams said:
Thanks for those verses, the Calvinist would just as quickly point out verses that support his views. I don't think that either view would damn a person or cause them to lost their salvation, so it may one of those issues where we can agree to disagree and still remain Gods children
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The Bible says "choose you this day" choose shows that you have a choice.

Joshua -But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”


John-If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.



John- ... the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him ...


If we cannot know who will be saved and God already knows there is no reason to evangelize. God knows so why bother? Why bother even having church? Or missions? The people that are suppose to come will so why bother ourselves about it.

The Bible says that God wants no one to perish.

2 Peter-The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

1 Tim- This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.



We have a choice ...

Rom 10-[I}f you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Matt. -Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Matt.-And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#184
#184
eternally-gratefull said:
let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

If he was saved, he still is saved, although the chastening he must be getting from God must be pretty severe. especially as a man who has been given the office of pastor.

Saved people are not exempt from falling into sins,
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My point was that he has walked away from God's grace. Not to point out what a sinner he is. Right now he is sleeping with a woman he isn't married to. So if the Lord come back tonight you're saying he would go to heaven? He has turned his back on God,walked away from the ministry,his wife and family.
 
A

adhidw

Member
#185
May 20, 2016
66
3
8
#185
7seasrekeyed said:
well if someone does not agree with you, they become 'some of us' who have a problem?

I don't believe you are in postition to state millions of people have a problem because they do not believe in Calvinism

God does not 'make' a child run across the road and get run over by a car
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Since we admit as christian , and don't agree with the words of God /the bible , surely the problem began emerge , it is ok to not agree with me , just take any you don't agree with ,and give your scriptural breathed wisdom that can help me to learn, i so thankful to you.

There is nothing to do with any ism, i didn't even pertain about any ism there.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#186
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#186
We don't know who will be saved, but the Bible says that God know all things. He know the beginning from the end, He has a book with he names of His elect from the foundation of the world.
It's true we don't know who God's elect are so we must share the Gospel with everyone. The harvest is great but the laborers are few, maybe because the laborers think they don't need to labor as God will do all the work.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#187
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#187
kaylagrl said:
You cannot lose your salvation,but you can walk away. Let me give you an example.

We had a pastor and wife that pastored my home church. Great people. They came in to a church spit and got the church back on its feet. We saw new people come to church,people were saved.We were close friends with them. Wonderful preaching,old time preaching. I moved to the US and kept in touch by FB. A few months ago I noticed she seemed to be upset and depressed.When I asked her if I could pray for her she broke down and told me her husband had had an affair with a worship leader. She is 30 he is 55. Not only did he have an affair he told his wife that he didn't see a problem,that he could satisfy them both sexually.

I knew this pastor on a personal level.I was very close to them when they pastored the church as I was in ministry at that time. For someone to tell me that he was never saved in the first place is complete nonsense. The man chose to walk away from God's grace. Everyone who knows the man is utterly shocked. I've never seen him hug another woman other than his wife. I was in their home,often. And I know he was saved. Salvation is a free gift and you can refuse it,you can know the truth and walk away. The parable of the sower and the seeds proves that point.
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Did the pastor repent and come back to serving the Lord or did he remain in his sin
 
Bladerunner

Bladerunner

Senior Member
#188
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
#188
kaylagrl said:
You cannot lose your salvation,but you can walk away. Let me give you an example.

We had a pastor and wife that pastored my home church. Great people. They came in to a church spit and got the church back on its feet. We saw new people come to church,people were saved.We were close friends with them. Wonderful preaching,old time preaching. I moved to the US and kept in touch by FB. A few months ago I noticed she seemed to be upset and depressed.When I asked her if I could pray for her she broke down and told me her husband had had an affair with a worship leader. She is 30 he is 55. Not only did he have an affair he told his wife that he didn't see a problem,that he could satisfy them both sexually.

I knew this pastor on a personal level.I was very close to them when they pastored the church as I was in ministry at that time. For someone to tell me that he was never saved in the first place is complete nonsense. The man chose to walk away from God's grace. Everyone who knows the man is utterly shocked. I've never seen him hug another woman other than his wife. I was in their home,often. And I know he was saved. Salvation is a free gift and you can refuse it,you can know the truth and walk away. The parable of the sower and the seeds proves that point.
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then that makes GOD a LIAR... for He will not lose any His father has given him?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#189
#189
kaylagrl said:
My point was that he has walked away from God's grace. Not to point out what a sinner he is. Right now he is sleeping with a woman he isn't married to. So if the Lord come back tonight you're saying he would go to heaven? He has turned his back on God,walked away from the ministry,his wife and family.
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If he is saved, you think God will turn his back on him because he is faithless?

God said he sealed us until the day of redemption, which means he would still be sealed. God did not say he sealed him until he cheated on his wife.

I will not judge him one way or the other, i am not God, i can only share what the word says.

All i am saying is just because he was a pastor does not mean he was saved, in the same taken, just because he is sinning does not mean he is not saved, we all sin, and thus if he lost his salvation have not we all?
 
M

MarkWilliams

Active member
#190
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#190
The Bible says the he who endures to the end shall be saved, so I think that means that a professing Christian must remain faithful to God until the end of his life. I would say that if a person professes to be saved, then turns around and commits adultery, that he was never saved in the first place.
There's no way that a person who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them could commit such a sin.
 
G

garee

Banned
#191
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#191
kaylagrl said:
You cannot lose your salvation,but you can walk away. Let me give you an example.

We had a pastor and wife that pastored my home church. Great people. They came in to a church spit and got the church back on its feet. We saw new people come to church,people were saved.We were close friends with them. Wonderful preaching,old time preaching. I moved to the US and kept in touch by FB. A few months ago I noticed she seemed to be upset and depressed.When I asked her if I could pray for her she broke down and told me her husband had had an affair with a worship leader. She is 30 he is 55. Not only did he have an affair he told his wife that he didn't see a problem,that he could satisfy them both sexually.

I knew this pastor on a personal level.I was very close to them when they pastored the church as I was in ministry at that time. For someone to tell me that he was never saved in the first place is complete nonsense. The man chose to walk away from God's grace. Everyone who knows the man is utterly shocked. I've never seen him hug another woman other than his wife. I was in their home,often. And I know he was saved. Salvation is a free gift and you can refuse it,you can know the truth and walk away. The parable of the sower and the seeds proves that point.
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Can't walk away from salvation the redemption of ones soul.(the better things spoken) Christ cannot deny Himself even if we do deny Him in unbelief .

The couple fits the Hebrew 6 pattern. Not the better things that accompany salvation for those who have been given a new spirit .it will rise on the last day

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak Hebrew 6
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#192
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
#192
MarkWilliams said:
The Bible says the he who endures to the end shall be saved, so I think that means that a professing Christian must remain faithful to God until the end of his life. I would say that if a person professes to be saved, then turns around and commits adultery, that he was never saved in the first place.
There's no way that a person who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them could commit such a sin.
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What about David? He had the Holy Spirit, yet committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah killed.

What about the guy in 1 Cor 5? And some of the Corinthians who were committing fornication (1 Cor 5)?

Having the gift of the Holy Spirit does not mean Christians cannot, or will not sin, sometimes egregiously.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#193
#193
adhidw said:
Since we admit as christian , and don't agree with the words of God /the bible , surely the problem began emerge , it is ok to not agree with me , just take any you don't agree with ,and give your scriptural breathed wisdom that can help me to learn, i so thankful to you.

There is nothing to do with any ism, i didn't even pertain about any ism there.
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I reiterate what I said the first time

of course it is ok to disagree with you

Calvinism is an ism
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#194
#194
MarkWilliams said:
The Bible says the he who endures to the end shall be saved, so I think that means that a professing Christian must remain faithful to God until the end of his life. I would say that if a person professes to be saved, then turns around and commits adultery, that he was never saved in the first place.
There's no way that a person who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them could commit such a sin.
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That is talking about those who are alive in the tribulation period, and not about eternal salvation, your taking that verse out of context.

All sin is evil, i wish people would stop thinking their own sin is not bad.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#195
#195
shrume said:
What about David? He had the Holy Spirit, yet committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah killed.

What about the guy in 1 Cor 5? And some of the Corinthians who were committing fornication (1 Cor 5)?

Having the gift of the Holy Spirit does not mean Christians cannot, or will not sin, sometimes egregiously.
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Satan has people decieved of thinking their sin does not stink, they need to worry about their own sins and stop judging others
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#197
#197
MarkWilliams said:
Did the pastor repent and come back to serving the Lord or did he remain in his sin
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No,he has not repented. He is seeking a divorce from his wife while living with his lover. He will marry her as soon as the divorce is final.They have been married close to 30yrs.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#198
#198
eternally-gratefull said:
If he is saved, you think God will turn his back on him because he is faithless?

God said he sealed us until the day of redemption, which means he would still be sealed. God did not say he sealed him until he cheated on his wife.

I will not judge him one way or the other, i am not God, i can only share what the word says.

All i am saying is just because he was a pastor does not mean he was saved, in the same taken, just because he is sinning does not mean he is not saved, we all sin, and thus if he lost his salvation have not we all?
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Brother we've agreed on a lot here through the years. So I dont want to come at you as if I am attacking you. I hope you understand that.I respect you as my brother in the Lord.

Now,there is a difference between failing and committing a sin,like losing your temper,and turning your back on God and living in sin. Scriptures I shared have proven that you can walk away from God's grace.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#199
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
#199
MarkWilliams said:
The Bible says the he who endures to the end shall be saved, so I think that means that a professing Christian must remain faithful to God until the end of his life. I would say that if a person professes to be saved, then turns around and commits adultery, that he was never saved in the first place.
There's no way that a person who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them could commit such a sin.
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King David said, at various times, things like: do not take Your Spirit from me.
He also killed a man in a sneaky way in order to have his wife.

The other thing we need to remember is that committing adultery can happen in the heart and mind without anything outward even being done. It's what comes from a mans heart that defiles him - even if no human sees any outward thing to accuse him of. And if the man has inward sin, but is convinced he doesn't, his blindness is very deep.

And this isn't to argue. This is just things to consider. :)
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#200
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
#200
The other thing is that we know we have murdered someone if we have anger in our heart at them without cause.
That "without cause" part is tricky.

If I have ever been a jerk to anyone, then someone is an atrocious jerk to me at some point, do I have cause for my anger? How so if I have done the same thing? If my judgement is that I have cause to be furious and to murder them in spirit, then won't I be judged by the same standard with which I have judged them?
 
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