The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[dcontroversal]

I understood what dcon was saying.
Those passages all go back and forth, first describing a human man and alternately seeming to describe more of a spirit leader or spiritual being.

They are separate, not blended in so much as dcon describes it. If you examine them, you can tell where a human man is being spoken of versus where a spirit being is spoken of.

The part you are quoting does deal with satan though. That part is not talking of a human man. At least to my understanding.

My deal is that the view that Satan will be burnt to ashes in the sight of men and destroyed presents a massive conundrum....Revelation states clealry that Satan will come down in great wrath knowing he has but a short time left.....and then it states that Michael comes down and Michael and his angels fight with the Devil and his angels and then Michael takes Satan and binds him with chains and casts him into the lake of fire...

So which is it....Burnt to a crisp and to ashes in front of men and destroyed or found fighting with Michael and then bound by chains and cast into the lake of fire....

When I say blended above in the post you referenced I am speaking of contexts being blended...God does this throughout the O.T. on a regular basis....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Cee, I know you said you were tired and didn't want to argue, but you aren't giving us the level of...thought that we are accustomed to from you. It's not a complaint or dig of any sort. It's concern more than anything. I think you need rest.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You're right not just Lazarus, I was mistaken. I believe Jesus quotes Moses by name because this parable is written as an instruction to the Pharisees who were listening. It sounds to me that you're saying we get the doctrine of eternal torment specifically from this story. And also through Revelation? And nothing else can give evidence of what happens to people when they die. Because when I quote other judgment Scriptures you are saying they only refer to the body. I.E. Body turns ashes, etc. But not the spirit/soul even though Jesus does say He can destroy the soul in hell.[/QUOTE]

Below is a typical parable:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. 26When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared.

27The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At the proper time I will tell the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.”’

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sower = Son of man

The field = the world

Good seed = Son's of the kingdom

The weeds = Son's of the evil one

The enemy who sows the weeds = the devil

The harvest = the end of the age (end of mankind's reign on the earth)

The harvesters = the angels

The rich man and Lazarus does not read like a parable at all. If it was a parable, then the rich man, Lazarus, Moses and Hades would all have to represent something else. Not only that, but anyone would be hard pressed to come up with what they are symbolic for and what the meaning of the rich man and Lazarus would mean. And the face value meaning being conveyed in the rich man and Lazarus would be distorted.

 

[shrume]

My deal is that the view that Satan will be burnt to ashes in the sight of men and destroyed presents a massive conundrum....Revelation states clealry that Satan will come down in great wrath knowing he has but a short time left.....and then it states that Michael comes down and Michael and his angels fight with the Devil and his angels and then Michael takes Satan and binds him with chains and casts him into the lake of fire...

So which is it....Burnt to a crisp and to ashes in front of men and destroyed or found fighting with Michael and then bound by chains and cast into the lake of fire....

You're forgetting that Satan will not be destroyed until after the 1000 years, at which time he will be freed, and manage to convince a multitude to rebel against Christ. It's after that that he will be destroyed. (Rev 20:7-10)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes, I understand your stance now. You're saying "ashes" only refers to the bodies, but not to their soul/spirit.

Yes, exactly! Well done! In fact we are told that a human being is made up of body, soul and spirit.

"For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

What the difference is between the soul and the spirit, I have no idea. But from the reference to "dividing soul and spirit" I believe that they are somehow closely linked.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

My deal is that the view that Satan will be burnt to ashes in the sight of men and destroyed presents a massive conundrum....Revelation states clealry that Satan will come down in great wrath knowing he has but a short time left.....and then it states that Michael comes down and Michael and his angels fight with the Devil and his angels and then Michael takes Satan and binds him with chains and casts him into the lake of fire...

So which is it....Burnt to a crisp and to ashes in front of men and destroyed or found fighting with Michael and then bound by chains and cast into the lake of fire....

When I say blended above in the post you referenced I am speaking of contexts being blended...God does this throughout the O.T. on a regular basis....

Those massive conundrums are what we search out all the time.

We try to search out what we aren't yet understanding.

Often, it seems to me that our problem is in assuming that certain verses are all describing the same exact event or the same exact time period.

It isn't really a "view" that satan will be burnt to ashes and destroyed and be no more. It's an actual verse.

All I can do at this point is add this to my list of things I want to fetch all of the verses regarding and lay them all out at once to examine. Often when I do this, I'm allowed to see some things more clearly.

But until then, I think they are describing different events. Burnt to ashes in front of men seems to be describing satan with some form of body that men can see. Being bound with chains doesn't necessarily need a body that can be seen. They could be describing different events...

Demons do not have bodies and they seem to think being cast into the body of a pig is preferable to being cast out of a body altogether. I think maybe demons DID used to have some form of body, though angelic...

Big mystery. Lot's of things to puzzle over...

 

[PennEd]

The most literal translation of Revelation is that it was pointing to the temple being destroyed in 70 AD. That’s what would have had meaning to the readers of the time and the ideas of, “I’m coming very soon...”

Yet 2000 years ago we still think it’s written to us about events that have not happened. And we create doctrines out of metaphorical meanings.

Revelation is about the supremacy of Christ. It’s the Revelation of Him. It’s not the Revelation of Hell, the beast, the Antichrist or any other. Creating doctrine from Revelation and using it as a lens to interpret other Scripture is probably not the best idea.

Man I don't like disagreeing with such loving awesome brothers and sisters in Jesus like you, but since this hell stuff seems to be the topic dejour til the OSAS rain delay stops, I guess I'll toss a couple cents into the fray.

I get EXTREMELY leery when I hear people talk about taking ANY of Scripture allegorically UNLESS Scripture itself uses the various literary devices to say otherwise, using terms such as "like" in Isaiah's attempt to describe God for instance. But there are close to 2 dozen such devices used in the Bible.
Now onto eternal suffering.
At first I was confused as to why the belief that the lost will suffer eternally would elicit such harsh criticism's from various people. But I guess the mere thought that even the most evil of human beings would suffer eternally is too awful for our human minds to contemplate, thus revealing our fears. I fully acknowledge that not only am I not 100% certain on this issue, but I hope my belief IS wrong. But I just don't see annihilation at all in Scripture. Yeah, I've read the numerous posted passages about death, but I think that is talking about the death of the soul, not the spirit, that is eternal somewhere. I think the body is the vessel for the soul, and the soul is the vessel for the spirit. Again, I'm not certain on all of this, and we'll all find out who is right soon enough. Now some questions that maybe some others have asked but I missed. Sorry if I'm being repetitive.
MATTHEW 23:
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 [g]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. THEREFORE YOU WILL RECEIVE GREATER CONDEMNATION".

Now just to verify that the condemnation Jesus is referring to is indeed Hell, and that their condemnation (punishment) is greater, He explains where that condemnation is in verse 33

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.33 Serpents, brood[n] of vipers! How can you escape the CONDEMNATION OF HELL"?
The Hell Jesus is referring to is Gehenna, or the lake of fire.

So if they are annihilated, how can their punishment be worse than others?

I could ask a lot more questions, but just one more for now...

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hell gets thrown into the lake of fire. What you say makes no sense.

Hades is not Hell (the Lake of Fire). So it is Hades which is METAPHORICALLY cast into the Lake of Fire, meaning that all the unsaved occupants of Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire, and the reason for its existence is thereby made null and void. No more sin, no more death, no more Hades because a New Heaven and a New Earth come into existence after that. Read Rev 21:1.

 

[PennEd]

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet ARE. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now others have mentioned the tormented day and night, not sure how you even get around that, but I want to focus on the fact the beast and false prophet ARE STILL THERE AFTER THE 1000 years! THEY have not been annihilated in that lake of fire.

Have you considered this?

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Wouldn't the after life place for unbelievers be what the Torah said it was? Our tradition is rooted in the Hebrew bible. As I understand it Jews don't believe in a fire and brimstone Hell.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

PennEd, I thought it said satan was thrown into the abyss before the 1000 years and into the lake of fire after the 1000 years...

 

[PennEd]

PennEd, I thought it said satan was thrown into the abyss before the 1000 years and into the lake of fire after the 1000 years...

Yeah, that's what it says. He is cast into the abyss for 1000 yrs, then released to deceive people again, THEN cast into the lake of fire. The point is, the beast and false prophet ARE STILL THERE! THEY haven't been annihilated.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yeah, that's what it says. He is cast into the abyss for 1000 yrs, then released to deceive people again, THEN cast into the lake of fire. The point is, the beast and false prophet ARE STILL THERE! THEY haven't been annihilated.

Yes, I have noted before that it says the beast, false prophet and satan are tormented forever and ever.

It does then say all who aren't written in the book of life are thrown into that same lake of fire. But it doesn't specifically state eternal torment for them as it does for that unholy trinity. (Unless I'm mistaken and it is written somewhere else other than Rev 20.)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Wouldn't the after life place for unbelievers be what the Torah said it was? Our tradition is rooted in the Hebrew bible. As I understand it Jews don't believe in a fire and brimstone Hell.

The Torah (5 books) is only a small (but important) part of the whole Bible. In order to fully understand the afterlife, Christians must go from Genesis to Revelation.

In Genesis 2:17 we read "thou shalt surely die". In Rev 20:14 we read "this is the second death". So now we must carefully connect Genesis to Revelation. Since the Jews reject Christ and reject the New Testament, they simply do not have the full truth about the afterlife. There are intimations of "fire and brimstone" in the OT, but spiritual truth is spiritually discerned, and the natural man cannot understand spiritual truth.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, I have noted before that it says the beast, false prophet and satan are tormented forever and ever.

It does then say all who aren't written in the book of life are thrown into that same lake of fire. But it doesn't specifically state eternal torment for them as it does for that unholy trinity. (Unless I'm mistaken and it is written somewhere else other than Rev 20.)

And this makes sense to me where humans are concerned because they are not born with eternal life in them. (Satan appears to be a different story somehow. He does appear to have eternal life in him somehow).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

but since this hell stuff seems to be the topic dejour til the OSAS rain delay stops,

You made me laugh very hard with this.

 

[PennEd]

And this makes sense to me where humans are concerned because they are not born with eternal life in them. (Satan appears to be a different story somehow. He does appear to have eternal life in him somehow).

Where does it say the beast, and the false prophet aren't human? They may have been POSSESSED by demonic forces, but so have others in Scripture.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Where does it say the beast, and the false prophet aren't human? They may have been POSSESSED by demonic forces, but so have others in Scripture.

It doesn't specifically say they aren't human. I get the feeling reading that they are somehow indwelt by satan himself.
But it still doesn't specifically state eternal torment for any other than that unholy trinity.

I think that those who believe we humans aren't born immortals tend toward annihilation, and that those who think humans are born immortals tend toward eternal life of torment.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But it still doesn't specifically state eternal torment for any other than that unholy trinity.

Are you going by one or two verses or all you taking all relevant verses into account?

There is one verse for the unholy trinity, there is another verse for those who take the Mark of the Beast, and there is a third verse that covers all unrepentant sinners.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

And that is only in Revelation. You still have the Gospels and the epistles to deal with.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Are you going by one or two verses or all you taking all relevant verses into account?

There is one verse for the unholy trinity, there is another verse for those who take the Mark of the Beast, and there is a third verse that covers all unrepentant sinners.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

And that is only in Revelation. You still have the Gospels and the epistles to deal with.

Yes, it does say they have their part in the lake of fire. It was never in question that they do.
The question was whether their part in the lake of fire included eternal life and eternal torment.