The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[PennEd]

What does it matter? It matters to have truth . . . . Again - the OT is replete with scripture concerning death - NT has man asleep (metaphorically used for death; yes, another figure of speech!) until Christ returns . . . . no in between - dead in the grave - raised to eternal life when Christ returns.

Umm... You skipped the point. Whether the account is literal or a parable doesn't matter in the sense that Jesus is teaching that there will be a consciousness after death for the righteous and the unsaved. The principle is the same even if it is a parable.

 

[john832]

Christians of all persuasions have generally believed the Bible doctrine of eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire).

However it is the cults who have originated and promoted the heresy of Annihilationism. Thus the heterodox groups who believe this false doctrine are the Millerites, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Armstrongites, “Bible Students” (ironic), Church of God (7th Day) Salem Conference, etc. There are also so-called evangelicals (heretical) such as Clark Pinnock, John Stott, Philip Edgcumbe Hughes, etc. who promote this doctrine. And recently, even the Church of England has gone along with this.

According to Theopedia Annihilationism is the belief that the final fate of those who are not saved is literal and final death and destruction. It runs counter to the mainstream traditional Christian understanding of hell as eternal suffering and separation from God.

As we know “annihilate” means to utterly destroy, to obliterate, to extinguish completely, to cause to cease to exist, to do away with entirely, so that nothing remains. If this were really true for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked, they would be more than happy to continue in their sins and evil deeds, since at the end of everything they would simply be vaporized. They would vanish into thin air.

However, there is no such nonsense taught in the Bible. Therefore the meaning of death and the second death had to be changed, and the meaning of “perish”, “destroy”, and “destruction” as shown in Scripture had to also be changed. But once we understand what those words mean -- as presented by Christ and the apostles -- we will see that Annihilationism is totally false. Here is what the Bible reveals:

1. Souls and spirits are imperishable, and will either have eternal life with God and Christ, or will be eternally separated from God in Hell.

2. There are two deaths in the Bible – the first death is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body, and the second death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

3. There are also two resurrections in the Bible – the resurrection unto life and the resurrection unto damnation.

4. There is no such thing as Soul Sleep. Those who are unsaved go to Hades and are in torment. Those who are saved go directly to Christ and are in joy and bliss.

5. There is no “second chance after death”. Therefore God now commands all men everywhere to repent and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

6. Those who are in Hades will eventually be resurrected before the Great White Throne Judgment. They will be judged according to their works, but their names will not be found in the Book of Life. Therefore they will be cast into the Lake of Fire to suffer eternal torment.

7. The Devil, the Beast (the Antichrist), and the False Prophet will all be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with the evil angels) and will be tormented day and night for ever (eternally).

8. The words “perish” and “destroy” do not mean annihilation, but do mean eternal ruin, eternal loss of well-being, and eternal indescribable torment.

9. Because Hell is real, Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and rose again for our justification according to the Scripture. John 3:16 makes the connection very plain: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, [suffer eternally in Hell] but have everlasting life.

10. God does not desire that a single soul go to Hell. That is why Christ commanded the Church to preach the Gospel to every creature, so that all men would be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

No reply to this heretical statement should ever begin without reading...


1Ti 6:15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Only God has immortality.

1. Souls and spirits are imperishable, and will either have eternal life with God and Christ, or will be eternally separated from God in Hell.

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Eze 18:4　 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Mat 10:28　 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul can be destroyed.

Joh 3:16　 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Word for perish here is apollumi:

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It means to die.

Rom 6:23　 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death, thanatos:

From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

And on and on it goes. The real problem with this is that those who believe in the immortality of the soul believe the lie...

Gen 3:4　 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Another absolutely wonderful morning in here with you guys! I always leave with my head full of many more things to think on!
Shrume, penn - thanks!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Umm... You skipped the point. Whether the account is literal or a parable doesn't matter in the sense that Jesus is teaching that there will be a consciousness after death for the righteous and the unsaved. The principle is the same even if it is a parable.

Yes, that is correct.
Consciousness after death.
Yet prior to Jesus death and resurrection, we do not have any such inkling. We only have sleep.

So you believe the parable in the NT teaches not sleep any longer, but consciousness in death. And there are many, many verses to support this.

BUT, have any of them proved that it will remain so AFTER the second death?

 

[PennEd]

Those three things are all true. They are not contradictory.

But the dead cannot be both dead and not dead.

Something tells me you better read Ephesians 2 and elsewhere that states we weren't sick, we weren't hurting, we were DEAD!

That's the whole point of our need to be born again.

Every person you encounter, that isn't born again, are walking dead people.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Something tells me you better read Ephesians 2 and elsewhere that states we weren't sick, we weren't hurting, we were DEAD!

That's the whole point of our need to be born again.

Every person you encounter, that isn't born again, are walking dead people.

So they have a short and temporary life on earth, but that is all? They have no eternal life until they are given the Spirit of God, who is the only eternal one?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

PennEd, I wish you were my neighbor so I could come over and talk on your porch. I would be there every night and you and your wife would be saying, turn out the lights, quick, act like we aren't here. I think Shrume would be there every night too... The neighbors would be like, look at those fools out there again working on that darn puzzle.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It is just so hard to find men who don't argue to be heard but who argue to learn from each other! And when you do find one, you want to tie him up and hold him hostage.

 

[garee]

No faith as a way of agreeing with God, not seen. No soul as a way of communing .

Deuteronomy 32:20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is "no faith"

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Ah, garee, I don't know why I always have such a hard time trying to understand what you are saying...I asked you once but you never answered me - is English your first language?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Nope. Not assuming anything. No conjecture.

Isaiah 65:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Glorious New Creation
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall NOT be remembered or [a]come to mind.

The lost will NOT be remembered.

What former things are forgotten? The former troubles are forgotten . . . . (v16)

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the MEMORY of them is FORGOTTEN.

The memory of them - those that are dead . . . not our memory of those that have died - I still remember my mother but she has been dead for 43 years

Revelation 21:4 New King James Version (NKJV)

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY

Pretty clear to me that we aren't going to remember the unsaved..”

the former things have passed away - again our former troubles are forgotten. Nowhere do these verses say that the "unsaved, the lost are not remembered.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

What former things are forgotten? The former troubles are forgotten . . . . (v16

I don't know what I think concerning this...but pennEd has a point with that verse - it does say not only they won't be remembered, but they won't even come to mind...former things, that is, the former earth and life we lived.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Umm... You skipped the point. Whether the account is literal or a parable doesn't matter in the sense that Jesus is teaching that there will be a consciousness after death for the righteous and the unsaved. The principle is the same even if it is a parable.

Jesus did not intend to contradict the entire OT and teach survival after death. The primary intent was to show that the Pharisees were so evil, being covetous and justifying themselves before men instead of before God, that even if someone rose from the dead, they wouldn't even listen. The Pharisees, having forsaken the OT in favor of their traditions, believed in immediate reward and punishment after death - so since they refused to believe Moses and the prophets - even if one were to return from the place of the dead, they still would not believe. (v31) (New Bible Dictionary, "Eschatology" p. 388) "a parable which makes use of current Jewish thinking and is not intended to teach anything about the state of the dead". . . .

In Revelation 21:4 - after all the judgments, there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain. How can saved believers possibly enjoy the riches of eternity if they could hear burning people shouting up at them for water?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I don't know what I think concerning this...but pennEd has a point with that verse - it does say not only they won't be remembered, but they won't even come to mind...former things, that is, the former earth and life we lived.

In the context - it clearly says - former troubles will be forgotten . . . because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes, For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered nor come into mind. If something is forgotten, it can't be remembered and therefore will not come into mind -

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

How can saved believers possibly enjoy the riches of eternity if they could hear burning people shouting up at them for water?

He already answered his thoughts on that.
Whether you agree with him or not, he did already answer what he thinks on it. And he at least did so with a verse.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

He already answered his thoughts on that.
Whether you agree with him or not, he did already answer what he thinks on it. And he at least did so with a verse.

Oh sorry, I didn't see where he said anything about our hearing those crying from "hell". . . . must have missed that.

But my question still stands: In Revelation 21:4 - after all the judgments, there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain. How can saved believers possibly enjoy the riches of eternity if they could hear burning people shouting up at them for water?

With a verse . . .

 

[PennEd]

What former things are forgotten? The former troubles are forgotten . . . . (v16)

The memory of them - those that are dead . . . not our memory of those that have died - I still remember my mother but she has been dead for 43 years

the former things have passed away - again our former troubles are forgotten. Nowhere do these verses say that the "unsaved, the lost are not remembered.

What!? Those are some, umm, let's just say interesting interpretations you got there. I understand the need to do it, but talk about stretching!

Here is the Lord stating EXACTLY what former things are going to be remembered so far. It is clear He is talking about the Lost:

13 Therefore thus says the Lord God:
“Behold, My servants shall eat,
But you shall be hungry;
Behold, My servants shall drink,
But you shall be thirsty;
Behold, My servants shall rejoice,
But you shall be ashamed;
14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart,
But you shall cry for sorrow of heart,
And wail for [e]grief of spirit.
15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen;
For the Lord God will slay you,
And call His servants by another name;
16 So that he who blesses himself in the earth
Shall bless himself in the God of truth;
And he who swears in the earth
Shall swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten,
And because they are hidden from My eyes.
The Glorious New Creation
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or [f]come to mind.

Also, how you can render that it is the lost's who remember no more in Ecclesiastes is just beyond me.

The word means a REMEMBRANCE of THEM.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

In the context - it clearly says - former troubles will be forgotten . . . because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes, For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered nor come into mind. If something is forgotten, it can't be remembered and therefore will not come into mind -

New International Version
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

New Living Translation
"Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore.

English Standard Version
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

Berean Study Bible
For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

New American Standard Bible
"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

King James Bible
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

You don't think that when God says the former troubles are forgotten and hid from my eyes - that the me there is God...?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh sorry, I didn't see where he said anything about our hearing those crying from "hell". . . . must have missed that.

Are you being serious??
He talked about how we could not be happy knowing our loved ones on earth are in eternal torment every day and he gave a verse that makes him think the memory of them wont even come into our minds.

Because he did not use the exact words: ""hearing those crying from hell," you will say he hasn't addressed this matter as to what he thinks regarding it??

Good grief!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I mean, I don't agree with him on the point but gosh sakes, he did address what he thinks about it!