The Basics of Speaking in Tongues
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It would seem that you completely missed the point of my post.
I merely pointed out to Wansvic exactly what Scripture states. Scripture itself says "prophecy of scripture". I don't have a problem with that, because I don't mistakenly conflate the two concepts. I've tried explaining the difference. Now I leave it to you to discover the distinction for yourself.
I merely pointed out to Wansvic exactly what Scripture states. Scripture itself says "prophecy of scripture". I don't have a problem with that, because I don't mistakenly conflate the two concepts. I've tried explaining the difference. Now I leave it to you to discover the distinction for yourself.
We are indwelt by Holy Spirit from the day we are saved. We could not be saved if the Holy Spirit was not in us!
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price." 1 Cor. 6:19-20a
This whole tongues issue is so fruitless. It distracts from the truly important issues in the Bible. Who God is; how we can know him; how to be on mission with God; how the Holy Spirit transforms us; God's love, mercy and grace; fellowship or koinonia; and a thousand other things.
Instead, Pentecostals get trapped in Acts 2 and the 5 times (ONLY) people spoke in tongues. They major in trivia. I was a Pentecostal for 15 years. I began to see that the experiential nature of the doctrine, was in no way reflective of what I had been reading in the whole Bible for 15 years! I left, and finally start to grow as a real Christian. I heard real preaching, from all over the Bible, and it fed
Shallowness is where most Pentecostals live. Try reading the other 65 books of the Bible besides Acts. Acts 2 is about the birth of the church. And the purpose of the original manifestation of tongues? Please, anyone?
It was so people from all the nations who were present understood who Jesus was. They heard the message, and then they asked:
"When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Acts 2:37
It wasn't to babble, to talk about how wonderful the experience was, it was real languages, and the purpose was to win people to Christ!
I challenge all of you to stop this ceaseless arguing, and instead, read the Bible from Genesis 1 to Rev. 22, and find out what the Bible is about! It is not about false so-called "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" which never really appears in the Bible that way, and what it does for YOU, and found out what the Bible actually says, on many issues. You will be a lot farther ahead than obsessing and getting stuck on tongues!
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price." 1 Cor. 6:19-20a
This whole tongues issue is so fruitless. It distracts from the truly important issues in the Bible. Who God is; how we can know him; how to be on mission with God; how the Holy Spirit transforms us; God's love, mercy and grace; fellowship or koinonia; and a thousand other things.
Instead, Pentecostals get trapped in Acts 2 and the 5 times (ONLY) people spoke in tongues. They major in trivia. I was a Pentecostal for 15 years. I began to see that the experiential nature of the doctrine, was in no way reflective of what I had been reading in the whole Bible for 15 years! I left, and finally start to grow as a real Christian. I heard real preaching, from all over the Bible, and it fed
Shallowness is where most Pentecostals live. Try reading the other 65 books of the Bible besides Acts. Acts 2 is about the birth of the church. And the purpose of the original manifestation of tongues? Please, anyone?
It was so people from all the nations who were present understood who Jesus was. They heard the message, and then they asked:
"When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Acts 2:37
It wasn't to babble, to talk about how wonderful the experience was, it was real languages, and the purpose was to win people to Christ!
I challenge all of you to stop this ceaseless arguing, and instead, read the Bible from Genesis 1 to Rev. 22, and find out what the Bible is about! It is not about false so-called "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" which never really appears in the Bible that way, and what it does for YOU, and found out what the Bible actually says, on many issues. You will be a lot farther ahead than obsessing and getting stuck on tongues!
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Angela, the issue for me isn't about speaking in tongues (I don't have that gift) but rather the deeper issue is the handling of God's Word in an attempt to explain away the gift of tongues. We know it existed as revealed in Acts 2 , 10 and 19 as well as 1Cor chaps 12 thru 14, but we can't be sure Scripturally speaking it passed away. I see many exalting reason over revelation in coming to their conclusive denial of the gift and that is dangerous.
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I am going to propose a theory to you and see what your views of this is:
Even though I have proven the actual Greek word Paul used meant human languages, and unfortunately has been mistranslated and misinterpreted as the Gift of Tongues (the word I have in bold), I will still use the same scripture context to provided TWO TRUTHS.
1 Corinthians 13:
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
This is the verse the majority have used to claim the Gift of Tongues has ended.
Now, let's view the next 2 verses that follow, and pay attention to the new word I have in bold.
1 Corinthians 13:
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when [[that]] which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
So this is about as obvious as it gets here:
Verse 8 speaks of things that will eventually end, and in verse 10, Paul clarifies when it will end. According to Paul, it ends when that which is PERFECT comes.
We know when Paul wrote this, the Holy Spirit had already been sent by the ascending Yeshua. So verse 10 is not about the Holy Spirit. That only leaves one other option that is PERFECT, and we are still waiting for Him to come, Y-E-S-H-U-A (Jesus) is who we are still waiting for to make His Second Coming.
So by what Paul said, prophecy, Tongues (Languages), knowledge ALL end when that which is PERFECT comes.
Today, we still are watching prophecy unfold (Tribulation -antichrist -Second Coming -Sun to darkness and moon to blood - Armageddon -New Jerusalem -Great White Throne Judgement - Lake of Fire) are just a few of the things prophesied that we are waiting to happen.
Today, we still have knowledge. Look at what we are doing within this thread, we are using our knowledge to debate the topic of Tongues. So knowledge is still prevalent at this moment and time and clearly has not ended.
And that leaves us with Tongues. If prophecy is still active, if knowledge is still possible, then Tongues has to also be active BECAUSE that which is PERFECT has not yet come.
That was TRUTH #1
TRUTH #2
Paul's word he used means languages, as in what human beings speak. Paul claims when that which is PERFECTcomes, languages will CEASE.
So, if our languages will end when Yeshua returns, how will we communicate?
We will be given a new language, which already exists and has existed, and is the Language of God and how God speaks to His angels (heavenly body).
In Corinthians, Paul claims there is times when people speak in Tongues and there are no interpretations because no one knows the language being spoken (this is 2,000 years ago).
I propose to you then, those who are genuinely caught up in the Spirit, praying in their native Tongue, and suddenly they began speaking in what Paul called (unknown Tongues), how do we know for certain this is not part of that new language we will all be speaking one day?
Obviously it was happening to Paul and those in the churches he started. And since we know things don't end until that which is PERFECT has come, how are we certain that a true and genuine prayer that does end up speaking in Tongues, is not part of that NEW LANGUAGE we ALL will be speaking one day.
Obviously as a true believer of God, we should ALREADY HAVE ACCESS to that new language since we see it being spoken 2,000 years ago.
And since nothing ends until Yeshua (Jesus) returns, I claim it is possible that some have already spoken in today's time in our NEW LANGUAGE!!
Even though I have proven the actual Greek word Paul used meant human languages, and unfortunately has been mistranslated and misinterpreted as the Gift of Tongues (the word I have in bold), I will still use the same scripture context to provided TWO TRUTHS.
1 Corinthians 13:
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
This is the verse the majority have used to claim the Gift of Tongues has ended.
Now, let's view the next 2 verses that follow, and pay attention to the new word I have in bold.
1 Corinthians 13:
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when [[that]] which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
So this is about as obvious as it gets here:
Verse 8 speaks of things that will eventually end, and in verse 10, Paul clarifies when it will end. According to Paul, it ends when that which is PERFECT comes.
We know when Paul wrote this, the Holy Spirit had already been sent by the ascending Yeshua. So verse 10 is not about the Holy Spirit. That only leaves one other option that is PERFECT, and we are still waiting for Him to come, Y-E-S-H-U-A (Jesus) is who we are still waiting for to make His Second Coming.
So by what Paul said, prophecy, Tongues (Languages), knowledge ALL end when that which is PERFECT comes.
Today, we still are watching prophecy unfold (Tribulation -antichrist -Second Coming -Sun to darkness and moon to blood - Armageddon -New Jerusalem -Great White Throne Judgement - Lake of Fire) are just a few of the things prophesied that we are waiting to happen.
Today, we still have knowledge. Look at what we are doing within this thread, we are using our knowledge to debate the topic of Tongues. So knowledge is still prevalent at this moment and time and clearly has not ended.
And that leaves us with Tongues. If prophecy is still active, if knowledge is still possible, then Tongues has to also be active BECAUSE that which is PERFECT has not yet come.
That was TRUTH #1
TRUTH #2
Paul's word he used means languages, as in what human beings speak. Paul claims when that which is PERFECTcomes, languages will CEASE.
So, if our languages will end when Yeshua returns, how will we communicate?
We will be given a new language, which already exists and has existed, and is the Language of God and how God speaks to His angels (heavenly body).
In Corinthians, Paul claims there is times when people speak in Tongues and there are no interpretations because no one knows the language being spoken (this is 2,000 years ago).
I propose to you then, those who are genuinely caught up in the Spirit, praying in their native Tongue, and suddenly they began speaking in what Paul called (unknown Tongues), how do we know for certain this is not part of that new language we will all be speaking one day?
Obviously it was happening to Paul and those in the churches he started. And since we know things don't end until that which is PERFECT has come, how are we certain that a true and genuine prayer that does end up speaking in Tongues, is not part of that NEW LANGUAGE we ALL will be speaking one day.
Obviously as a true believer of God, we should ALREADY HAVE ACCESS to that new language since we see it being spoken 2,000 years ago.
And since nothing ends until Yeshua (Jesus) returns, I claim it is possible that some have already spoken in today's time in our NEW LANGUAGE!!
Heb 10:36You need to persevere, so that after you have done God’s will, you will receive what He has promised. 37For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.
Either Paul was cheating (God forbid) or you are the liar. I believe the one who was to come came. A little while can not mean 2000 years +
Either Paul was cheating (God forbid) or you are the liar. I believe the one who was to come came. A little while can not mean 2000 years +
O
If 1 day can equal to 1,000 years, then from Adam to now is only 1 week in God's time. Therefore, a little while could be 2 days. And even though our calendar says it is 2019, the Jewish calendar (which they believe at the 7,000 year mark from Adam their true Messiah will appear) is still 3 years away from 7,000 years (7 days), or from Christ 2,000 years (2 days).
That's laughable. Paul is writing to his 1st century audience, not God. He is telling them the day is near and gives them hope.
Heb 10: 25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. .....
36You need to persevere, so that after you have done God’s will, you will receive what He has promised. 37For, in just a little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.
The bible says He will not delay.
Where does the bible say 'delay' is like prompt and prompt is like delay?
Rom 13:11And do this, understanding the occasion. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.14Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.
Where does the bible say near is like far and far like near?
The perfect came and everything ceased, let no man cheat you.
Heb 10: 25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. .....
36You need to persevere, so that after you have done God’s will, you will receive what He has promised. 37For, in just a little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.
The bible says He will not delay.
Where does the bible say 'delay' is like prompt and prompt is like delay?
Rom 13:11And do this, understanding the occasion. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.14Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.
Where does the bible say near is like far and far like near?
The perfect came and everything ceased, let no man cheat you.
O
First of all, there is a consensus among biblical scholars who do not believe the Book of Hebrews was ever written by Paul. Some believe it was actually written in the 4th Century and added to the Canon in 325 A.D. If you actually study Hebrews, it is nothing new, it is basically the entire outline of the Holy Bible. And they had the scriptures where you could create such an outline.
I think biblical scholars have a better grasp on the Book of Hebrews than we both do.
Quote it all you like, but at best, it appears to be someone's outline made into a Book by the Council!!
How clearly does Hebrews define Christ's role as our High Priest. It would be a shame to doubt its contents, as it unfolds such a beautiful revelation of the blood of Christ, our forgiveness, and the security we have before God as Jesus is our mediator, (1 John 2:1, Advocate with the Father), and High Priest interceding on our behalf (able to save us to the uttermost; Hebrews 7:25).
The information isn't regurgitated, but enlightening, and the Lord permitted its placement in His Word clearly for our benefit. How essential it is for our peace to grasp our forgiveness before the Lord, being justified before God based upon the atonement by Christ paying our penalty of death and resurrecting unto the work of ministry as our High Priest (through His blood).
The information isn't regurgitated, but enlightening, and the Lord permitted its placement in His Word clearly for our benefit. How essential it is for our peace to grasp our forgiveness before the Lord, being justified before God based upon the atonement by Christ paying our penalty of death and resurrecting unto the work of ministry as our High Priest (through His blood).
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I do not doubt that Hebrews is enlightening. I enjoy reading it myself. But the way it is laid out, a true follower of God, having access to the available materials (which there were "Books" left out of the Canon, and some were then destroyed, to which we have never had access to) could have been inspired by the Holy Spirit in the 2nd/3rd/4th centuries and made this outline that literally highlights the same people we generally preach about in our sermons today.
And I highly doubt Paul (having access to the Torah Scrolls as a Pharisee) would make the mistake of misspelling the name Melchizedek for Melchisedek (as it is spelled in the Book of Hebrews), to begin with...and that is a basic "no brainer there!!"
Some bible translations such as NIV change the meaning of Psalm 12:6-7. But it is clear from this scripture in the KJV that the reference is to God's Word being preserved forever.
Secondly, I meant what I said about SCRIPTURE not being of private interpretation. There is only one truth not various interpretation of the Word to contort it to meet ones opinion.
Having eyes they do not see and having ears they do not hear.
Secondly, I meant what I said about SCRIPTURE not being of private interpretation. There is only one truth not various interpretation of the Word to contort it to meet ones opinion.
Having eyes they do not see and having ears they do not hear.
i don't understand why you think the meaning of these two renderings is in any way different?
the words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times
(KJV)
the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times
(NIV)
also i don't see how it is 'clear' that this is any kind of reference at all to eternal preservation of His Word? -
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i'm not saying His Word doesn't endure forever - Psalm 119:89 says that explicitly, for example - just saying, i don't see how @Wansvic gets that from Psalm 12:6
it's really a different subject, & one of the things CC needs least is yet another 'kjv-only' thread, but it's also a logical fallacy to say Psalm 119:89 implies the KJV is the perfectly preserved written record of His word. the verse says His word is "fixed in the heavens" -- we're not talking about pen marks on papyrus.
it's really a different subject, & one of the things CC needs least is yet another 'kjv-only' thread, but it's also a logical fallacy to say Psalm 119:89 implies the KJV is the perfectly preserved written record of His word. the verse says His word is "fixed in the heavens" -- we're not talking about pen marks on papyrus.
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This isn't an issue of different translations. You have ignored three words in the middle of the sentence, and thereby changed the meaning.
You can "mean what you say" all you like, and still be wrong. Scripture doesn't say what you claim that it says. I agree with your latter sentence here though.
You can "mean what you say" all you like, and still be wrong. Scripture doesn't say what you claim that it says. I agree with your latter sentence here though.
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Um, yes. Your point? Prophecy is indeed part of Scripture. I suspect you mean something else though.
I don't know what you mean by "as interpretations of God". Setting that aside though, Scripture itself tells us of prophecies that were not recorded in Scripture. Philip's four daughters prophesied; what they prophesied is not recorded.
I don't know what you mean by "as interpretations of God". Setting that aside though, Scripture itself tells us of prophecies that were not recorded in Scripture. Philip's four daughters prophesied; what they prophesied is not recorded.
verse 5 tells us who "them" is in verse 7 --
this is about preserving people, not about preserving 'pure words' -- the specific 'pure words' verse 6 is talking about is His promise to preserve those in verse 6.
the meaning is no different in kjv, good grief, just read it in its context!
because the words of the Lord are pure we reach the conclusion in verse 7 - He will keep them that are oppressed.
to me the meaning is very clear in either translation into English -- God is faithful to those who put their trust in Him, and we know He is because His words are pure and true, and He has said that He will arise and keep them.
so @Wansvic i really don't understand why you think this has anything to do with accurate preservation of text, unless you are completely ignoring the rest of the Psalm .. ?
"Because the poor are plundered and the needy groan,
I will now arise,” says the Lord.
“I will protect them from those who malign them.”
(Psalm 12:5)
this is about preserving people, not about preserving 'pure words' -- the specific 'pure words' verse 6 is talking about is His promise to preserve those in verse 6.
the meaning is no different in kjv, good grief, just read it in its context!
For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy,
now will I arise, saith the Lord;
I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
The words of the Lord are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O Lord,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
(Psalm 12:5-7)
because the words of the Lord are pure we reach the conclusion in verse 7 - He will keep them that are oppressed.
to me the meaning is very clear in either translation into English -- God is faithful to those who put their trust in Him, and we know He is because His words are pure and true, and He has said that He will arise and keep them.
so @Wansvic i really don't understand why you think this has anything to do with accurate preservation of text, unless you are completely ignoring the rest of the Psalm .. ?
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