The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The word "reconciled" is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.
God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.
The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position.
Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
Please note Paul also tells them WHEN "it was done !" :
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Reconciliation takes place when a person believes ... i.e. the yet now of Col 1:21 ... not in eternity past.
.
God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.
The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position.
Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
Please note Paul also tells them WHEN "it was done !" :
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Reconciliation takes place when a person believes ... i.e. the yet now of Col 1:21 ... not in eternity past.
.
-
1
- Show all
the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If they are "dead to God", then they are not "elect".
... the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam.
... outright blasphemy ... why do you allow such thoughts to come to your mind ... you need to reject these lies of the adversary the moment they enter your mind. however, you not only entertain the lies, you then submit them online in an open forum. smh
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If they are "dead to God", then they are not "elect".
... the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam. ... outright blasphemy ... why do you allow such thoughts to come to your mind ... you need to reject these lies of the adversary the moment they enter your mind. however, you not only entertain the lies, you then submit them online in an open forum. smhJames 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
.
continue reading in John 12, brightfame52 ... here are verses within the context which you ignore in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma:
John 12:35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
... continue reading John 12:
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
All drawn will either believe on Him ... or reject Him.
Those who believe will become children of light (John 12:36) and will not abide in darkness (John 12:46).
Those who reject will be judged in the last day (John 12:48).
John 12:32 was not speaking of the day of His power.
In John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of His crucifixion. According to John 12:33, He knew what death He would would suffer ...
Acts 8:12 speaks of His crucifixion as His humiliation and Hebrews 12:2 tells us He endured the cross, despising the shame ...
Believers are instructed to consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds (Hebrews 12:3).
quit manipulating Scripture in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma! You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
.
John 12:35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
... continue reading John 12:John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
All drawn will either believe on Him ... or reject Him.
Those who believe will become children of light (John 12:36) and will not abide in darkness (John 12:46).
Those who reject will be judged in the last day (John 12:48).
John 12:32 was not speaking of the day of His power.
In John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of His crucifixion. According to John 12:33, He knew what death He would would suffer ...
Acts 8:12 speaks of His crucifixion as His humiliation and Hebrews 12:2 tells us He endured the cross, despising the shame ...
Believers are instructed to consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds (Hebrews 12:3).
quit manipulating Scripture in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma! You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
.
-
1
- Show all
Romans 1:16 tells us that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.
Since Scripture clearly states it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, whenever brightfame52 insists that anyone is saying salvation is conditioned "on the action of man", brightfame52 is offering up a red herring because Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith.
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith..
.
Since Scripture clearly states it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, whenever brightfame52 insists that anyone is saying salvation is conditioned "on the action of man", brightfame52 is offering up a red herring because Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith.
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith..
.
-
1
- Show all
All men drawn by virtue of Christ's Death ! 2
For its the Day of Christ's Power Ps 110:3
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Thats what Christ is speaking of in Jn 12:32 , that all His People He died for Matt 1:21 shall be attracted to Him in the Day of His Power !
Now the word all has been a stumblingblock to many in false religion, they force it to mean " every individual without exception ", yet that is a lie. The word all is the greek word pas, which means more often than not, all of the whole, or all of every kind; It means all in the sense 0f each [every] part that applies; The emphasis of the total picture then is on one piece at a time, all the parts that constitute the whole, that is to view the whole in terms of indvidual parts.
Now for instance, He will draw all of His Sheep to Himself until they all constitute His One whole Sheepfold ! Jn 10:3-4,16
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name[singular one by one], and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one [whole sheepfold], and one shepherd.
Now we know all men without exception are not Christs Sheep or of His Sheepfold Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 38
For its the Day of Christ's Power Ps 110:3
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Thats what Christ is speaking of in Jn 12:32 , that all His People He died for Matt 1:21 shall be attracted to Him in the Day of His Power !
Now the word all has been a stumblingblock to many in false religion, they force it to mean " every individual without exception ", yet that is a lie. The word all is the greek word pas, which means more often than not, all of the whole, or all of every kind; It means all in the sense 0f each [every] part that applies; The emphasis of the total picture then is on one piece at a time, all the parts that constitute the whole, that is to view the whole in terms of indvidual parts.
Now for instance, He will draw all of His Sheep to Himself until they all constitute His One whole Sheepfold ! Jn 10:3-4,16
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name[singular one by one], and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one [whole sheepfold], and one shepherd.
Now we know all men without exception are not Christs Sheep or of His Sheepfold Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 38
the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If they are "dead to God", then they are not "elect".
... the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam.
... outright blasphemy ... why do you allow such thoughts to come to your mind ... you need to reject these lies of the adversary the moment they enter your mind. however, you not only entertain the lies, you then submit them online in an open forum. smh
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If they are "dead to God", then they are not "elect".
... the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam. ... outright blasphemy ... why do you allow such thoughts to come to your mind ... you need to reject these lies of the adversary the moment they enter your mind. however, you not only entertain the lies, you then submit them online in an open forum. smhJames 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
.
continue reading in John 12, brightfame52 ... here are verses within the context which you ignore in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma:
John 12:35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
... continue reading John 12:
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
All drawn will either believe on Him ... or reject Him.
Those who believe will become children of light (John 12:36) and will not abide in darkness (John 12:46).
Those who reject will be judged in the last day (John 12:48).
John 12:32 was not speaking of the day of His power.
In John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of His crucifixion. According to John 12:33, He knew what death He would would suffer ...
Acts 8:12 speaks of His crucifixion as His humiliation and Hebrews 12:2 tells us He endured the cross, despising the shame ...
Believers are instructed to consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds (Hebrews 12:3).
quit manipulating Scripture in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma! You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
.
John 12:35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
... continue reading John 12:John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
All drawn will either believe on Him ... or reject Him.
Those who believe will become children of light (John 12:36) and will not abide in darkness (John 12:46).
Those who reject will be judged in the last day (John 12:48).
John 12:32 was not speaking of the day of His power.
In John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of His crucifixion. According to John 12:33, He knew what death He would would suffer ...
Acts 8:12 speaks of His crucifixion as His humiliation and Hebrews 12:2 tells us He endured the cross, despising the shame ...
Believers are instructed to consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds (Hebrews 12:3).
quit manipulating Scripture in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma! You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
.
Romans 1:16 tells us that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.
Since Scripture clearly states it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, whenever brightfame52 insists that anyone is saying salvation is conditioned "on the action of man", brightfame52 is offering up a red herring because Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith.
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith..
.
Since Scripture clearly states it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, whenever brightfame52 insists that anyone is saying salvation is conditioned "on the action of man", brightfame52 is offering up a red herring because Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith.
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith..
.
I have explained why John 12:32 was not speaking of the day of His power.
In John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of His crucifixion. According to John 12:33, He knew what death He would would suffer ...
Acts 8:33 speaks of His crucifixion as His humiliation and Hebrews 12:2 tells us He endured the cross, despising the shame ...
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
In Acts 8:33, the crucifixion is referred to as His humiliation ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.
In Hebrews 12:2, the Lord Jesus Christ endured the crucifixion despising the shame ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.
Repeating your lie that in John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ is referencing Psalm 110:3 does not make your lie the truth.
What you are doing is known as the illusory-truth effect or believing something to be true if it's repeated often enough, even when it is false.
The Greek word pas means all without exception when pas is not associated with a modifying noun.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
In the case of John 12:32, the word "men" does not appear in the text ... so there is no modifying noun in the verse.
In John 12:32, the word pas is not modified by the word "men" ... nor is the word pas modified by the word "sheep" ... notwithstanding your attempt to associate John 12:32 with John 10:16 (another example of your poor workmanship for which you need to be ashamed – 2 Tim 2:15 ... but you're not).
In John 12:32, the word pas means all. Period.
In John 12:33, Jesus clarifies that He was referring to His crucifixion ... His cross:
there is no other way to the Father ... all must come to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
.
In John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of His crucifixion. According to John 12:33, He knew what death He would would suffer ...
Acts 8:33 speaks of His crucifixion as His humiliation and Hebrews 12:2 tells us He endured the cross, despising the shame ...
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
In Acts 8:33, the crucifixion is referred to as His humiliation ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.
In Hebrews 12:2, the Lord Jesus Christ endured the crucifixion despising the shame ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.
Repeating your lie that in John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ is referencing Psalm 110:3 does not make your lie the truth.
What you are doing is known as the illusory-truth effect or believing something to be true if it's repeated often enough, even when it is false.
The Greek word pas means all without exception when pas is not associated with a modifying noun.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
In the case of John 12:32, the word "men" does not appear in the text ... so there is no modifying noun in the verse.
In John 12:32, the word pas is not modified by the word "men" ... nor is the word pas modified by the word "sheep" ... notwithstanding your attempt to associate John 12:32 with John 10:16 (another example of your poor workmanship for which you need to be ashamed – 2 Tim 2:15 ... but you're not
).In John 12:32, the word pas means all. Period.
In John 12:33, Jesus clarifies that He was referring to His crucifixion ... His cross:
At the cross, we encounter God’s justice through the judgment of sin, God’s love and mercy through the forgiveness of sinners, and God’s power through His defeat of Satan (Romans 3:21–26; Colossians 1:13). At the cross, Christ brings salvation to those who believe and judgment to those who refuse to believe. In God’s wisdom and holiness, the cross opens the only way to the Father for sinners (John 14:6). At the cross, Jesus sets us free from the chains of sin. The lifting up of Jesus on the cross is the captivating influence that pulls human hearts to Him.
Earlier in John’s gospel, Jesus had said, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him” (John 3:14–15). The bronze snake raised up in the wilderness became a type—a prophetic symbol—of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion. As the serpent on Moses’ staff was raised up to offer deliverance and healing, so, too, would Jesus eventually be lifted up on a cross to offer eternal life. The snake was elevated on a pole so that all of Israel could see it and be healed, just as Jesus was lifted up on the cross so that all might see Him and be drawn to Him for salvation.
there is no other way to the Father ... all must come to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
.