IOW: in order for Christ to be the Saviour as the Bible says that He is, EVERYTHING pertaining to salvation must be given by/through Him alone to those whom He saves, and not by or through us in any sense - it is a gift, otherwise, it is of our work. Until and unless you come to that understanding, you don't actually believe that Christ is the Saviour.
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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@PaulThomson Some proof passages:
[Luke 1:47 KJV] 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
[1 Timothy 1:1 KJV] 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, [which is] our hope;
[1 Timothy 2:3 KJV] 3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[1 Timothy 4:10 KJV] 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
[Titus 1:3 KJV] 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
[Titus 2:10 KJV] 10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
[Titus 3:4 KJV] 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
[Jude 1:25 KJV] 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
[Luke 1:47 KJV] 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
[1 Timothy 1:1 KJV] 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, [which is] our hope;
[1 Timothy 2:3 KJV] 3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[1 Timothy 4:10 KJV] 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
[Titus 1:3 KJV] 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
[Titus 2:10 KJV] 10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
[Titus 3:4 KJV] 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
[Jude 1:25 KJV] 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
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Obviously, the carnal mind CAN understand the milk of the word. They just relegate it to a lower priority than their fleshly desires. People who relegate the "milk" to a lower priority than the flesh are not going to understand the "meat".
Paul is not going to reiterate the elementary doctrines to the carnal believers, because they already know them, not because they cannot know them. Since they already know them, he is moving on to share meat with those who also know them, but have chosen to prioritise them and do live by them rather than the flesh.
Paul is not going to reiterate the elementary doctrines to the carnal believers, because they already know them, not because they cannot know them. Since they already know them, he is moving on to share meat with those who also know them, but have chosen to prioritise them and do live by them rather than the flesh.
PaulThomson said:
How do you arrive at the conclusion that I am a universalist from my post? Is English your second language, BTW?
You throw out mud at me and it does not matter that you justify or retract it. You can just leave it and move on? Are you thinking of Jesus when you say that?
How do you arrive at the conclusion that I am a universalist from my post? Is English your second language, BTW?
You throw out mud at me and it does not matter that you justify or retract it. You can just leave it and move on? Are you thinking of Jesus when you say that?
The initial response to the gospel was the same . Their hearts were wounded/offended. But one group acknowledged their guilt in rejecting and despising the one who gave His life to remit their sins, justified God and asked "What must we do"? and were not told they needed to do nothing, because God had already regenerated them. And the other group denied their guilt and justified themselves, and rejected Christ and His messengers.
So, unless I hold a Calvinist soteriology I am not saved? Or do I still have the Saviour as my Saviour, but I just don't believe He is the Saviour? Whaytare you trying to say here?
It's not Calvinist, it's biblical and simple - that Jesus Christ alone is the Saviour. As the Saviour, everything necessary for our salvation has been accomplished by Him, not by us, otherwise, He wouldn't/couldn't be the Saviour. He bequeathed salvation to whomsoever He chose for it, and thereby, they became beneficiaries.
It's not Calvinist, it's biblical and simple - that Jesus Christ alone is the Saviour. As the Saviour, everything necessary for our salvation has been accomplished by Him, not by us, otherwise, He wouldn't/couldn't be the Saviour. He bequeathed salvation to whomsoever He chose for it, and thereby, they became beneficiaries.
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Maybe Paul is not referring to all gospel truths by "the things of the Spirit of God" but to "the things" mentioned just previously in the run-up to v. 14 and not the message of salvation preached to the unsaved to which he contrasts "these things of the Spirit".
2 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.
CONTRASTED TO _
1 Cor. 2:6- We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c]
2 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.
CONTRASTED TO _
1 Cor. 2:6- We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c]
Yes, that is exactly what Paul is referring to - it pertains to all things of the Spirit of God. The key is in the term "natural man". No matter what "spiritual thing" in view is, the natural man will not/cannot receive it within himself. He may intellectually
understand it on a superficial level, but not within himself at the spiritual level - he will never be able to take it to heart
because being a natural man, he considers it to be folly. Until and unless God first makes of him not a natural man through salvation and making him born-again, whereby he is taught by the Holy Spirit, he will never be able to take to heart nor comprehend the spiritual.
[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The other verses you posted, which I won't go into now, are referring to those already saved, not to everyone.
understand it on a superficial level, but not within himself at the spiritual level - he will never be able to take it to heart
because being a natural man, he considers it to be folly. Until and unless God first makes of him not a natural man through salvation and making him born-again, whereby he is taught by the Holy Spirit, he will never be able to take to heart nor comprehend the spiritual.
[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The other verses you posted, which I won't go into now, are referring to those already saved, not to everyone.
Thats all Paul is referring to, the Cross, the Gospel 1 Cor 2:1-2
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And the Cross is foolishness to the perishing, lost,
1 Cor 1:18
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
The same foolishness is in view in 1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So the perishing in 1 Cor 1:18 and the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 are one and the same.
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And the Cross is foolishness to the perishing, lost,
1 Cor 1:18
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
The same foolishness is in view in 1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So the perishing in 1 Cor 1:18 and the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 are one and the same.
... nope. Ephesians 2 tells us that prior to being born again, all believers were children of wrath ...Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
... which is why mankind needs the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
And it is not until we believe that Jesus is Messiah ... then we are born of God:
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
please note that 1 John 5:1 does not state that we are born of God and then believe Jesus is Messiah ...
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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Paul does not need to explain that those who are not born again ... those who do not have Holy Spirit within … cannot comprehend spiritual matters.
However, in 1 Cor 2:14, Paul explains that it is carnal christians who cannot comprehend spiritual matters.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural [Greek psyxikós] man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:14 depicts the born again child of God who is a babe in Christ who is living in light of who he/she is in Adam. This unmature believer is living according to the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. the behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven". That is the definition of the Greek word psyxikós which is translated into the English word "natural" in 1 Cor 2:14.
In 1 Cor 2, Paul explained that he limited his teaching those who were not born again and those who were born again yet carnal to Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:1-5). Paul taught them the simple truth of the gospel.
However, beginning at 1 Cor 2:6, Paul stated that among the more mature believers, he spoke the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom as well as things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard.
Paul was not able to speak of the deeper spiritual matters with those who were not born again yet, as well as carnal Christians, because they were not spiritually mature enough to understand.
You can continue to believe what you believe. I have gone over these verses with you in the past and you still harden your heart to this truth.
Just move on ...
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However, in 1 Cor 2:14, Paul explains that it is carnal christians who cannot comprehend spiritual matters.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural [Greek psyxikós] man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:14 depicts the born again child of God who is a babe in Christ who is living in light of who he/she is in Adam. This unmature believer is living according to the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. the behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven". That is the definition of the Greek word psyxikós which is translated into the English word "natural" in 1 Cor 2:14.
In 1 Cor 2, Paul explained that he limited his teaching those who were not born again and those who were born again yet carnal to Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:1-5). Paul taught them the simple truth of the gospel.
However, beginning at 1 Cor 2:6, Paul stated that among the more mature believers, he spoke the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom as well as things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard.
Paul was not able to speak of the deeper spiritual matters with those who were not born again yet, as well as carnal Christians, because they were not spiritually mature enough to understand.
You can continue to believe what you believe. I have gone over these verses with you in the past and you still harden your heart to this truth.
Just move on ...
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... "If you rightly divide the word of truth", you would understand that Jesus was praying for His disciples in John 17:9 because Jesus had given them the Word of God (John 17:14) and the disciples were sent to the world (John 17:18).And in John 17:21, Jesus prayed that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
When you read God's Word through your preconceived notions, you conclude that Jesus did not pray for the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
5. the inhabitants of the world ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16f ... Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2
As shown above, when reading John 17, it is wholly apparent that Jesus prayed for the world.
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ForestGreenCook, in Post 2075, you stated (bold mine), "God loves the world of believers who believe in spiritual things, only, after they have been born again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:1-5)".
That statement is completely untrue because when you read Ephesians 2:1-5, God says He loved us even when we were dead in sins:
Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins ...
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That statement is completely untrue because when you read Ephesians 2:1-5, God says He loved us even when we were dead in sins:
Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins ...
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... in 1 Tim 1:3, Paul said that he had exhorted Timothy to remain in Ephesus to make sure that correct doctrine was being taught.1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine
Paul wanted Timothy to remain in Ephesus until others were able to teach. Timothy was to commit the doctrine to faithful men who would be able to teach others.
In 1 Timothy 2:1, Paul exhorted Timothy concerning prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks ... that these various types of prayers be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
You wanting the all men to be saved to relate only to a subset of humanity does not make it so.
Just read God's Word as written and believe what the Author has written.
... the word "perish" in 2 Peter 3:9 is translated from the Greek word apóllymi which means to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery (Thayer's Greek Lexicon).So you want me to believe that the born again believer can or will incur the loss of eternal life???
Just read the verse as written ... and believe what is written ... God's desire is that all mankind come to repentence. However, God's justice requires all mankind to come to Him through the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The only way to not perish is to not reject God's provision.
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The words "for to give" are translated from the Greek word didōmi ...
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon (bold mine):
The words "will give" are translated from the Greek word didōmi ...
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
so sad you do not believe what the Author of Scripture has written.
... no it's not ... it's an indictment against those who do not believe.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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From Thayer's Greek Lexicon (bold mine):
6. δίδωμι is joined with nouns denoting an act or an effect; and
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b. the noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναι τινὶ μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31 ...
The words "will give" are translated from the Greek word didōmi ...
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
so sad you do not believe what the Author of Scripture has written.
... no it's not ... it's an indictment against those who do not believe.READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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