The Absence of Free Will

[ForestGreenCook]

So you believe in the absence of free will correct?

No, God gave mankind a free will to choose as to how man wants to live his life while sojourns here on earth. There are many scriptures where God is instructing us to make a choice. But nowhere does God instruct mankind to save himself eternally because that choice is totally by God's grace, without the help of man.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

No, God gave mankind a free will to choose as to how man wants to live his life while sojourns here on earth. There are many scriptures where God is instructing us to make a choice. But nowhere does God instruct mankind to save himself eternally because that choice is totally by God's grace, without the help of man.

Oh gotcha. So another question then. Do you believe the pre election and pre determination?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Only born again people have the spiritual law written in their hearts. Gentiles as well. It would be interesting to see how you would interpret 1 Cor 2:14. Can you humor me and tell me your interpretation?

We need to look at the context of that verse and then determine exactly what Paul is speaking about:

1. THE THINGS WHICH GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

2. THE DEEP THINGS OF GOD
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

3. THE THINGS OF GOD KNOWN ONLY BY THE SPIRIT
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

4. THE THINGS FREELY GIVE TO CHRISTIANS BY GOD
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

5. SPIRITUAL THINGS TAUGHT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

6. THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT WHICH ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1. You will note that this is addressed to those who are already saved and have the Holy Spirit and must learn spiritual things.

2. You will also note that there is NOT A SINGLE MENTION OF THE GOSPEL in this passage.

3. You will also note in Rom 1:16 is that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe.

What all this means is that the proclamation of the Gospel Message is quite distinct from all these other spiritual things to be learned by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. The Gospel declares Christ to be the Savior of the world and commands all sinners to obey the Gospel --repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So it is only after a person obeys the Gospel that he or she receives the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). And from that point the saint is taught spiritual truths.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

For those who believe the absence of free will I must ask how does one define sin and evil? Or how does one define genuine love, is genuine love ever forced? Or how does one view the laws of logic and reason including the law of noncontradiction? How is condemnation justified if God is the source of what makes people act the way they do?

No, God gave mankind a free will to choose as to how man wants to live his life while sojourns here on earth. There are many scriptures where God is instructing us to make a choice. But nowhere does God instruct mankind to save himself eternally because that choice is totally by God's grace, without the help of man.

ForestGreenCook has at least a better explanation even though it comes with it's own issues. But to completely deny free will is illogical at this point. It is just as illogical for the atheist just as the Christian to deny it.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” – 2 Corinthians 5:10

As seen above no free will makes God not all just as judgment is only a illusion because God was the forcing love and forcing continual hate.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” – Joshua 24:14-15

Joshua either wasn't as close to God as we are today or he understood we must choose to follow or follow the idols of our lives.

1 Corinthians 7:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.

Christ's slave ( slave: 1401 doulos)

1401. doulos
Transliteration: doulos
Phonetic Spelling: (doo'-los)
Definition: a slave, bondman, man of servile condition; one who gives himself up wholly to another's will.

One who gives himself up wholly to anothers will.

Bondman/ bondservant: difference in modern slavery and Biblical slavery was the bondservant described under Hebrew laws was more as a indentured servant.

Man of Servile: Having or showing an excessive willingness to serve or please others.

Leviticus 25:39 describes this when it says, “If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner.”

This is why people like atheist or Sam Harris proclaim that the Bible endorses slavery. But Biblical slavery isnt like antebellum slavery where the person had no choice.

 

[Lafftur]

Well, we really miss it when we focus on ourselves, when we think and judge according to our view or how it all pertains to us.

Just pretend for a moment and try to see EVERYTHING through God’s eyes....

As God, You can create any and every habitat - thus, we have all the various galaxies, solar systems, universes, and all the unseen realm of principalities, spiritual beings, demons, angels, et al.

Any and everything you desire - just speak and it is so.....yet, after having everything you desire, why are you not satisfied?

Because the greatest desire, need and want of LOVE is NOT habitats and things but........

....to love and to be loved.

Here’s God’s dilemma.... love cannot be created.

He can create everything except love - the one and only thing that God truly wants.

So, He creates us in His image and gives us the “capacity” to love and gives us free will because love without a choice is manipulation, not love at all - just a bunch of robots.

So, what role does “free will” and “predestination” play in this scenario....

God offers us two paths - Life and Death. With our free will we get to choose the path, however, the paths are predestined- one ends in Life the other in Death.

God tells us to choose Life but, He leaves the decision up to us.

So those in Heaven will truly love God because they chose to - God will finally have what He has always wanted......us.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But to completely deny free will is illogical at this point.

That will not deter any dyed-in-the-wool Calvinist. Neither logic, nor common sense, nor Scripture make any difference when you have been brainwashed. That's the sad thing. It is also akin to being bewitched.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Well, we really miss it when we focus on ourselves, when we think and judge according to our view or how it all pertains to us.

Just pretend for a moment and try to see EVERYTHING through God’s eyes....

As God, You can create any and every habitat - thus, we have all the various galaxies, solar systems, universes, and all the unseen realm of principalities, spiritual beings, demons, angels, et al.

Any and everything you desire - just speak and it is so.....yet, after having everything you desire, why are you not satisfied?

Because the greatest desire, need and want of LOVE is NOT habitats and things but........

....to love and to be loved.

Here’s God’s dilemma.... love cannot be created.

He can create everything except love - the one and only thing that God truly wants.

So, He creates us in His image and gives us the “capacity” to love and gives us free will because love without a choice is manipulation, not love at all - just a bunch of robots.

So, what role does “free will” and “predestination” play in this scenario....

God offers us two paths - Life and Death. With our free will we get to choose the path, however, the paths are predestined- one ends in Life the other in Death.

God tells us to choose Life but, He leaves the decision up to us.

So those in Heaven will truly love God because they chose to - God will finally have what He has always wanted......us.

Very well said.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

That will not deter any dyed-in-the-wool Calvinist. Neither logic, nor common sense, nor Scripture make any difference when you have been brainwashed. That's the sad thing. It is also akin to being bewitched.

I know. As to why quoting scripture is no good. So just as when I speak to a atheist who denies free will I try to show how much one must give up to fully accept that. And once fully accepted in my opinion they sound in nice terms very illogical but in emotional terms crazy lol

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Everything you have quoted and said is true, however. God did give man a free choice in determining his eternal destination, that is by God's grace, without the help of man.

I agree. Humans can choose life or death.

Malachi 3:16-18, " 16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke with one another. The LORD paid attention and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the LORD and esteemed his name. 17 “They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in the day when I make up my treasured possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him. 18 Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him.

 

[Crustyone]

If free will was the only means of living our lives God would not have been able to determine who would be saved even before he created the world. Thus I happen to believe in both destiny and free will. The explanation of how this can be is a little long, but here goes. Before God created the universe and the world he had everything planned out and made angels and men/women with every kind of thought pattern that can be used by angels and humans. Some bad and some good. Knowing what patterns he put into certain individuals he also put them in circumstances in which they would react a certain way and continue his plan properly. The person had free will to make his/her decision, but God already knew what it would be. Thus humans are destined to follow a certain path due to the way they think. This allows God to tell us in Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, and Jeremiah 10:23 that he directs our steps and not us, although I see us as having free will.

 

[Lafftur]

I agree. Humans can choose life or death.

Malachi 3:16-18, " 16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke with one another. The LORD paid attention and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the LORD and esteemed his name. 17 “They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in the day when I make up my treasured possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him. 18 Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him.

The greatest and highest form of “servitude” is love. This is what God wants ...us to obey because we love Him.

 

[SoulWeaver]

God can foresee what are we going to choose. He already knows who's the sheep. So predestination and free will are completely harmonious:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, (…)

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Also examine the law on noncontradiction. I dont think I explained that above but the law states that a contradictory statement cannot both be true at the same time.

If God is the source of truth. And absent free will agents both speak contradictory statements as we see in this thread then God is the source of each statement making both true but in reality they are contradicting therefore free will to think is obviously more logical.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

God can foresee what are we going to choose. He already knows who's the sheep. So predestination and free will are completely harmonious:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, (…)

Good interpretation. The problem comes from when this is interpreted with pre election absent of free will. Basically God chose before creation who would be the goats and who would be the sheep.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

If free will was the only means of living our lives God would not have been able to determine who would be saved even before he created the world. Thus I happen to believe in both destiny and free will. The explanation of how this can be is a little long, but here goes. Before God created the universe and the world he had everything planned out and made angels and men/women with every kind of thought pattern that can be used by angels and humans. Some bad and some good. Knowing what patterns he put into certain individuals he also put them in circumstances in which they would react a certain way and continue his plan properly. The person had free will to make his/her decision, but God already knew what it would be. Thus humans are destined to follow a certain path due to the way they think. This allows God to tell us in Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, and Jeremiah 10:23 that he directs our steps and not us, although I see us as having free will.

I believe the foreknowledge and Gods immaterial eternal outside of space and time is the key to understanding the idea of destiny, predestination, the elect, etc.

God predestined a way for all to be saved John 3:16. Free will in the human is presently active within space and time. God outside of time is in the beginning, the present, and the end of time. God can easily work in time to bring about his will and can see every choice a human made, makes, or will make. Gods foreknowledge sees all of this and everyone's lives at the end of times. God already knows who the elect is but didn't violate free will to force people to love him. He just already knows who chose to believe, follow and love Him.

 

[Lafftur]

Human reasoning without the Holy Spirit of Truth at the helm is just a hamster on his wheel going in circles that lead nowhere as fast as he can...... I’m sure God finds it very comical yet, sad at times....

I like it when He knocks us off our hamster wheel of human reasoning! Lol!

https://images.app.goo.gl/H9Liigc6fVJHebBR6

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

The greatest and highest form of “servitude” is love. This is what God wants ...us to obey because we love Him.

You are wonderful! I see His light shining through you!

John 13:35, “By this shall all know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Psalm 84:5, "Blessed is the man (or woman in this case) whose strength is in You, Your Highways are in their heart."

 

[Jimbone]

In your first post you said quote," A very well thought out comment, and I really agree with you on everything you said, only I see it a little bit different."

My post was to explain how libertarian free will best fits reality. You said you agreed with everything I said but your view was a little different.

Then in your above reply you said quote, " ....we are NOT "FREE" at all. We are in fact slaves."

So you can see why it seems contradicting in your statements. I am honestly trying to understand your belief so I dont try to assume your beliefs.

You can quote scripture, I can quote scripture, you can tell me my interpretation is wrong, and I can tell you yours is wrong. And then what progress would we make. I'm just looking at which one best fits reality because God is the author of reality.

I want to know so in your belief we are completely without free will or not just to clarify my confusion in your statements.

And does that mean everyone is predetermined to act as they do?

I really don't see why you're making this so complicated, I think the word "free" is wrong because one cannot be free and a slave at the same time. Do you understand the point I'm making about a larger nature that governs our decisions, those being the fallen sinful nature and the redeemed Spirit nature. One of those two natures will govern all your decisions, hense you are subseriant or as His word says "slaves of".

You say "You can quote scripture, I can quote scripture, you can tell me my interpretation is wrong, and I can tell you yours is wrong. And then what progress would we make. I'm just looking at which one best fits reality because God is the author of reality.", and I would like to point out that I have been using scripture to make my case and I went back to make sure and I didn't see one scripture used in your whole case, this whole time, really all you've done in our conversation is try to pick apart the words I used to try to relay the fact I DO believe we have choice, we have a will, I just don't see that will as being free because the bible tells us they are not free, they are slave of who they serve. Jesus tells us a good tree produces good fruit and cannot produce bad fruit and the bad tree produces bad fruit and cannot produce good.

So to some it all up as simply and direct as I can, I do not believe our will is free, I believe our wills are slave of sin, or of Jesus. Cool? Clear? Concise? So I agree with you we have a choice, so on the level you are speaking of I do agree with you, I just go a level higher and believe that this will you're speaking of, the whole thing, is a slave of Jesus or sin, therefore not "free".

 

[Jimbone]

God written words are not written to people that are not his children already. It is written to his children instructing them as to how he wants them to live their lives while they sojourn here on earth. God has given man a free will to choose good or bad. You are right that our choices, if we are born again. are influenced either by our spiritual nature or our fleshly nature. Many times we choose our fleshly nature which requires repentance in order to regain our fellowship back with God. By choosing bad does not cause us to lose our eternal destination because that was secured on the cross. When we choose bad, we are just disobedient children, and God chastens us to bring us to repentance. God does not chasten those that are not his children, Psalms 73.

I agree 100% whole heartedly and testify this is how He works first hand, and the craziest thing is that you are grateful for the discipline too. I'm not sure where I suggested we could lose our natures, or salvation, or move back and forth or in and out of them, nope not at all. I'm pretty sure I said that the saved can make bad decisions just as sure as the fallen can do good things within these two natures, the difference is one will recognize he has done wrong and repent, the other will justify himself deceptively. I also want to be super clear, I believe that Jesus will lose NONE the Father has given Him just like he said as well. I believe in a sovereign God over everything, that is so big, so great, that His sovereignty works in and through our decisions, and and everything that happens for His glory to bring about His kingdom. ( HAVE to admit this is so far beyond my comprehension that it's baffling) I believe Jesus is King right now today reigning until every enemy has been made a footstool for His feet, and our purpose is to go therefore and make disciples of all nations right now today!!!! Holla-Boo-Ya!!! So praise God brother I'm right there with you.

 

[Jimbone]

For those who believe the absence of free will I must ask how does one define sin and evil? Or how does one define genuine love, is genuine love ever forced? Or how does one view the laws of logic and reason including the law of noncontradiction? How is condemnation justified if God is the source of what makes people act the way they do?



ForestGreenCook has at least a better explanation even though it comes with it's own issues. But to completely deny free will is illogical at this point. It is just as illogical for the atheist just as the Christian to deny it.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” – 2 Corinthians 5:10

As seen above no free will makes God not all just as judgment is only a illusion because God was the forcing love and forcing continual hate.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” – Joshua 24:14-15

Joshua either wasn't as close to God as we are today or he understood we must choose to follow or follow the idols of our lives.

1 Corinthians 7:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.

Christ's slave ( slave: 1401 doulos)

1401. doulos
Transliteration: doulos
Phonetic Spelling: (doo'-los)
Definition: a slave, bondman, man of servile condition; one who gives himself up wholly to another's will.

One who gives himself up wholly to anothers will.

Bondman/ bondservant: difference in modern slavery and Biblical slavery was the bondservant described under Hebrew laws was more as a indentured servant.

Man of Servile: Having or showing an excessive willingness to serve or please others.

Leviticus 25:39 describes this when it says, “If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner.”

This is why people like atheist or Sam Harris proclaim that the Bible endorses slavery. But Biblical slavery isnt like antebellum slavery where the person had no choice.

Yes, awesome point, however it doesn't change the fact we are His slaves. You're a slave when you're forced into it, and if to decide to join, the way you become a slave has no effect on being a slave. Right? I love it personally, and know it sound hard, but I still maintain that if our will is a slave of Him or sin then it by very nature can not be a "free" will, but again this depends on how you look at it, perspective. However I do 100% understand that the "choice" I am saying we have, is the what you are call "free will", and I do agree with the fact we choose, really all this boils down to is what words we use and our perspective on it. See I believe God is sovereign, in control of everything in all time, but I still believe we have choice. These things seem diametrically opposed I know, but who can figure out God? You know what else was "diametrically opposed"? God's infinite love and mercy, and His infinite justice and complete condemnation of sin. How could those things ever exist without contradiction? The Cross of Jesus is the ONLY way the two meet. All I know is that the more He draws me in, the closer I get the more He reveals, press into Jesus, He is the truth of ALL reality.