Speaking in tongues

[presidente]

It would take many threads to correct the errors of your doctrine. Jesus Himself said that many of the disciples followed Him only for the miracles and when Jesus told them He would die for their sins they abandoned Him.

John 6:22 through the end of the chapter.

Did you read the passage before referring me to it? In it, Jesus said:
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
(NKJV)

He wasn't even getting onto their case for following Him because He did miracles. They weren't even seeking him for that. For them it was about the food, the literal physical food that they had eaten. They wanted Him to fill their bellies.

The ones who stuck with Him in John 6 were also miracle-workers themselves. This is not an anti-miracle passage.

In John 14, Jesus told His disciples:
11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (NKJV)

Certainly, miracles were among the works of Christ. Jesus would accept it if His own disciples believed in Him because of His works. They would believe His message also, but if they believed because of his works, He would accept that. Thomas did not believe He had risen until He saw evidence of the miracle. He missed out on the blessing that those who would not see and yet would believe would receive. But He still believed, and Jesus accepted Him.

All these disciples heard Him teach and believed His word, too. I am not arguing for believing without hearing the Gospel preached. But there are plenty of people who believed the word after seeing signs and wonders. Sit down and read your Bible looking for this. Get out a concordance or search online. It is all throughout the Gospels and it is in Acts. I've even shown it to you. You can stick with your philosophy which contradicts scripture if you want to. I just don't see the benefit in doing so.

 

[presidente]

Which prophets?
Anything within the 1st century was just fine. The prophets in the first century were physically appointed by God.

What does that mean? How do you get 'physically appointed by God'? God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Moses saw a burning bush and Isaiah had a vision. Why would Isaiah's vision be 'physical'? Why would we think the other prophets hearing God was 'physical'? We don't know how all the prophets in the Old Testament were called. We can know from the New Testament that God sets forth prophets in the church as He does other types of ministers.

No one today is appointed physically by God, they either pass their theology masters or have funny dreams or think they know the bible and some still have funny ticklish feelings. All these are not appointments by God, haven't you heard:

Ahhh, so this is how you describe the people who are 'perfected in love.' If everyone is so off, then we should expect there to be prophets according to your previous theory.

You might be right about some people. I am sure their are unqualified men with MDivs and people who feel something who misattribute it to God. But God is also at work, and His grace is at work in many people. If you do not have eyes to see it or ears to see it, it does not mean that that it is not happening. For you, not only are accounts of miracles like the occasional resurrection of the dead considered a lie, but you seem to be rejecting the more mundane aspects of miracles as legitimate.

And yet you think Jesus came back and perfection in love has already occurred, too, right? And do you think pretty much everyone else is wrong, but you? And there is no church or not need for it in your belief system? You seem to hold to an internally inconsistent set of beliefs.

 

[Noose]

So Paul was not indwelt by God when he wrote to the Corinthians? Hogwash.

There's a difference between the presence of God being with people, doing His work within them and God fully dwelling in the heart of a man making His eternal residence within man to fulfill what has always been prophesied about God's dwelling place being with men. God dwelling within a man is the new covenant and the new covenant was not ratified until the gospel was preached to all nations as a witness.

Here's another set of verses to answer your question:

Rom 13:11And do this, understanding the occasion. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.14Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.

From the above verse, can we say that Paul was not a believer or was not saved until the 'hour of salvation' which was near, that THEY ALL WAITED FOR? what do you think they were waiting for? How many times does the scripture had to say the Lords coming was just around the corner?

So... when did "the Day" happen? What was the date on which "love was perfected"? If your argument were sound, "the Day" would be in the past as of any time after the first century and this passage in Hebrews is of no relevance to modern Christians.

The day the new covenant was ratified and the hour was the very hour that John wrote this, that very minute:

Rev 14:
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

This was sometime late in the 1st or early in the second century.

It is far more reasonable that John and Paul aren't talking about the same thing, or at least not in the same sense. How does loving one another, which does not happen for every Christian concurrently, logically constitute a single point in time at which revelatory gifts will cease? It doesn't.

Nope. Trying to remain relevant to no avail.

1 Cor 13 is about love - 1 John 4 is about love
Paul says when the perfect comes, he will know God as he is known- John says loving one another is knowing God and in this way, love is perfected in us.

How can they not be talking about the same thing?

 

[Noose]

The problem with that is that it does not fit what the passage is saying or reality. Jesus was a great miracle Worker and 'that Prophet.' Would you say that He lacked love? Greater love hath no man that this, that a Man lay down His life for His friends. Jesus certainly did that. Did the apostles do miracle out of a lack of love?

If you look at Joel 2, the outpouring of the Spirit, which manifests in prophecy, is an end-time eschatological thing. In Acts 2, we see the time period for the outpouring of the Spirit started at that time. The Spirit does not speak to people just because they, or we, are not perfect in love. Your theory does not fit the passage or the overarching themes of scripture.

You also seem to think other Christians have everything wrong. Look around. Do you think Christians are now all perfected in love?

Jesus =God=Love.
He was the perfect who was to come and not in the 21st century and counting but in the lifetime of the apostles:

Heb 10:23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds. 25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching .......
35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done God’s will, you will receive what He has promised. 37For In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

Rom 13:11And do this, understanding the occasion. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.14Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.

I still insist, that day came in Paul's lifetime, for me to oppose this view i would be calling Paul a liar. I know he was not.

 

[Noose]

What does that mean? How do you get 'physically appointed by God'? God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Moses saw a burning bush and Isaiah had a vision. Why would Isaiah's vision be 'physical'? Why would we think the other prophets hearing God was 'physical'? We don't know how all the prophets in the Old Testament were called. We can know from the New Testament that God sets forth prophets in the church as He does other types of ministers.

A burning bush, being swallowed by a whale is as physical as it can get. Physical appointments are from before birth and God insists even if the appointee refuses- meaning there is no other outcome other than doing what they are sent to do. It is not theology school and funny dreams or just a feeling plus reading the bible carefully, God has a timeline and the time for appointment is just done with. The last appointees were to preach the gospel and then the end comes.

Heb 2:1 We must pay closer attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every transgression and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?
This salvation was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4and was affirmed by God through signs, wonders, various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will.

Those that were appointed to preach the gospel of salvation were to die for the gospel to be effective and the reason is, the spirit lives through the spoken word. Listening to a preacher today is futile because of this fact. We need to read the bible because they are the words of Jesus.

Ahhh, so this is how you describe the people who are 'perfected in love.' If everyone is so off, then we should expect there to be prophets according to your previous theory.

You might be right about some people. I am sure their are unqualified men with MDivs and people who feel something who misattribute it to God. But God is also at work, and His grace is at work in many people. If you do not have eyes to see it or ears to see it, it does not mean that that it is not happening. For you, not only are accounts of miracles like the occasional resurrection of the dead considered a lie, but you seem to be rejecting the more mundane aspects of miracles as legitimate.

And yet you think Jesus came back and perfection in love has already occurred, too, right? And do you think pretty much everyone else is wrong, but you? And there is no church or not need for it in your belief system? You seem to hold to an internally inconsistent set of beliefs.

Time for prophets/preachers/teachers/pastors is long gone:

Jer 31:
31Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their fathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt—
a covenant they broke,
though I was a husband to them,f ”
declares the LORD.
33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the LORD.
I will put My law in their minds
and inscribe it on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD.
For I will forgive their iniquity
and will remember their sins no more.”

 

[Wansvic]

Patently false gospel when you add water baptism.

Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon those in the upper room long before Pentecost and wholly apart from water.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The command to be water baptized came straight from Peter's mouth on the Day of Pentecost when the church was birthed. It would be good to search the Word for all baptism scriptures instead of skipping these scriptures. They are present in the Word whether one wishes it or not.

 

[notuptome]

Obviously.


No, he didn't. He said that the three gifts would cease "when the perfect comes" (NIV). He did not specify in that passage to what "the perfect" referred.


The word is "affect" in this case. "Effect" is only used as a verb in the sense of "bring forth" or "bring about" as in "to effect change".


True, but we are discussing Paul's ministry, not that of Jesus. Scripture gives only one example of someone following the apostolic ministry for signs and wonders, and he was soundly rebuked.


However, they did follow Jesus because of the miracles.

They followed Jesus until Jesus gave them the doctrine of purpose of His coming to earth. John 6 They followed Jesus for the wrong reason. Same way many claim to follow the Lord but they do not know Him as He is to be known in the scriptures. Jesus is far more than a morale teacher.

The perfect can only be the canon of scripture. With the completion of the NT the scripture is perfect and complete wholly able to make men wise unto salvation. Hopefully we effect a change that will affect the heart through the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

The command to be water baptized came straight from Peter's mouth on the Day of Pentecost when the church was birthed. It would be good to search the Word for all baptism scriptures instead of skipping these scriptures. They are present in the Word whether one wishes it or not.

Nope you have an incorrect understanding. Peter was commanding folks to believe and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit not water. Water does not have a part in the salvation of the soul. Blood makes the atonement. Grace makes forgiveness and the Holy Spirit quickens. Water is only for those who are already saved by grace through faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

well, the insult of my understanding is ok coming from you, I will wear it as a badge Honor LOL. I do not perform acts for you in the gifts of the Holy Spirit who are you now acting like Simon the sorcerer In Acts. 1cor chapter 12 through 14 will explain for you as will the book of Acts. You need not for me to do anything.

You ave been asked at least one hundred times to show from the scriptures what is the tongues taught in Corinthians and Acts. There remains no consensus among Pentecostals or charismatics themselves let alone a clear evidence of it from the bible. We can show salvation but not tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Did you read the passage before referring me to it? In it, Jesus said:
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
(NKJV)

He wasn't even getting onto their case for following Him because He did miracles. They weren't even seeking him for that. For them it was about the food, the literal physical food that they had eaten. They wanted Him to fill their bellies.

The ones who stuck with Him in John 6 were also miracle-workers themselves. This is not an anti-miracle passage.

In John 14, Jesus told His disciples:
11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (NKJV)

Certainly, miracles were among the works of Christ. Jesus would accept it if His own disciples believed in Him because of His works. They would believe His message also, but if they believed because of his works, He would accept that. Thomas did not believe He had risen until He saw evidence of the miracle. He missed out on the blessing that those who would not see and yet would believe would receive. But He still believed, and Jesus accepted Him.

All these disciples heard Him teach and believed His word, too. I am not arguing for believing without hearing the Gospel preached. But there are plenty of people who believed the word after seeing signs and wonders. Sit down and read your Bible looking for this. Get out a concordance or search online. It is all throughout the Gospels and it is in Acts. I've even shown it to you. You can stick with your philosophy which contradicts scripture if you want to. I just don't see the benefit in doing so.

Read what Peter said to Jesus when the multitudes of followers turned and followed no more. John 6:68 Peter knew who Jesus was and followed Jesus not for miracles but because Jesus had the words of life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

You ave been asked at least one hundred times to show from the scriptures what is the tongues taught in Corinthians and Acts. There remains no consensus among Pentecostals or charismatics themselves let alone a clear evidence of it from the bible. We can show salvation but not tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

First off the "tongues was not taught LOL it was and is a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit. That is your argument against the “gifts of the Holy Spirit those who do speak in tongues were taught to do so or making it up or it is fake or it is a pagan practice.


You were shown, but pride has blinded you from seeing the gifts of the Holy Spirit which 1cor chapter 12 calls them.
They preach and taught salvation in no other but Christ to that I say amen.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to those as the Holy Spirit willed, as 1corthians says starting at verse 3 -6

I posted this weeks ago clearly you did not see it. Read you will see the INSTRUCTION concerning Gifts of the Holy Spirit,

:3 the introduction: "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

verse : 7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

verses 8 to 10 List the gifts :
:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
:9 "To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"
:10 " To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

verse 11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

They were not taught they were given, in chapter 13 and 14 Paul teaches how they ARE TO BE USED. You have the gift or you don't
The Holy Spirit gives as HE sees, they are used for the betterment of all, and we are told to use them in love , seek and desire them and then we are told not to forbid to use them.
The Book of acts the term " they taught them how to speak in tongues is not used nor said Because it is a gift even in and BY the Holy Spirit.

This is not even about Pentecostals or charismatics you have bias twisted dislike for them oh well that is you.

I hang my understanding on what is seen and said BY Jesus in Mark 16 John 14 to 16, the Book of Acts 1cor chapters 12 to 14 in context to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You have for the 1000 times the answer you will not accept.

 

[garee]

Read what Peter said to Jesus when the multitudes of followers turned and followed no more. John 6:68 Peter knew who Jesus was and followed Jesus not for miracles but because Jesus had the words of life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I would agree signs and wonders identifies a evil generation, as in natural nonconverted men "no walking by faith, the unseen Holy place "as if the kingdom of God comes by observation (walking by sight)

God was simply mocking the Jews who mocked Him . they did not belive the word of God prophecy in any langue to include their own but rather chased after the oral tradition of natural man .Yet they still did not believe prophecy. tongues is prophecy or the word of God spoken interpreted by God in all the languages of the word . This is when God was still bringing new interpretations as revelations.

Men turn the sign upside down as if it confirms they do have the Holy Spirit (hear prophecy) not understanding it is against those who refuse to hear the word of God ,prophecy.

If we get the law correct as its foundation found in Isaiah 28 the rest of the doctrine falls into place.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not to them that believe", but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:21-22

 

[Waggles]

Patently false gospel when you add water baptism.

No wonder "Christianity" travels down the broad avenue that does not lead to life.
If "believers" cannot even agree and be obedient to the commandment for full immersion water baptism then it raises the
very real question as to who is saved?

 

[Waggles]

Water is only for those who are already saved by grace through faith.

Why do people insist on re-inventing Christian doctrine?

 

[Waggles]

Peter was commanding folks to believe and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit not water. Water does not have a part in the salvation of the soul.

Acts 2:38
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized [G907] every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive [G2983] the gift of the Holy Ghost.

G907 βαπτίζω baptizō
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
Total KJV occurrences: 80

G2983 λαμβάνω lambanō
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).
Total KJV occurrences: 263

 

[presidente]

They followed Jesus until Jesus gave them the doctrine of purpose of His coming to earth. John 6 They followed Jesus for the wrong reason. Same way many claim to follow the Lord but they do not know Him as He is to be known in the scriptures. Jesus is far more than a morale teacher.

The perfect can only be the canon of scripture. With the completion of the NT the scripture is perfect and complete wholly able to make men wise unto salvation. Hopefully we effect a change that will affect the heart through the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Read the passage about the scriptures making Timothy wise unto salvation. Timothy grew up reading them. Considering the time and the situation, he would have grown up reading the Old Testament. Men, like Timothy and Paul, could be wise unto salvation before the New Testament scriptures were completed.


I Corinthians 13 does not speak of 'that which is perfect' making men wise unto salvation. When Paul wrote it, he was 'wise unto salvation', but his understanding would be childish in comparison to his understanding after the perfect comes.

 

[Noose]

Read the passage about the scriptures making Timothy wise unto salvation. Timothy grew up reading them. Considering the time and the situation, he would have grown up reading the Old Testament. Men, like Timothy and Paul, could be wise unto salvation before the New Testament scriptures were completed.


I Corinthians 13 does not speak of 'that which is perfect' making men wise unto salvation. When Paul wrote it, he was 'wise unto salvation', but his understanding would be childish in comparison to his understanding after the perfect comes.

Wrong.

Rom 13:11And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Q1. What were they waiting for which seemed to be nearer each passing day?

Heb 10:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Q2. What day was approaching and did they ever reach that day or Paul was just lying?

Heb 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”

Q3. Who were they waiting for and did he come or Paul was lying?

 

[Noose]

No wonder "Christianity" travels down the broad avenue that does not lead to life.
If "believers" cannot even agree and be obedient to the commandment for full immersion water baptism then it raises the
very real question as to who is saved?

I agree with your first statement- 'Christianity' leads many down the destruction road but don't act like you don't know that many are called but few are chosen.

 

[Dino246]

There's a difference between the presence of God being with people, doing His work within them and God fully dwelling in the heart of a man making His eternal residence within man to fulfill what has always been prophesied about God's dwelling place being with men. God dwelling within a man is the new covenant and the new covenant was not ratified until the gospel was preached to all nations as a witness.

This would suggest that Paul's gospel was incomplete. I don't accept that.

How many times does the scripture had to say the Lords coming was just around the corner?

Are you a preterist?

The day the new covenant was ratified and the hour was the very hour that John wrote this, that very minute:
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Most say, "from now on". I can't find the wording you show. From which version does it come?

This was sometime late in the 1st or early in the second century.

Your knowledge of history is suspect.

1 Cor 13 is about love - 1 John 4 is about love
Paul says when the perfect comes, he will know God as he is known- John says loving one another is knowing God and in this way, love is perfected in us.

How can they not be talking about the same thing?

I don't see it the way you do, and I don't accept your conclusion.

 

[Noose]

This would suggest that Paul's gospel was incomplete. I don't accept that.

There's no such thing as Paul's gospel, there's one gospel which the Lord preached through his words and actions and then later preached through the tongues of His appointed servants.

Are you a preterist?

No. I hold no position as such but i know what i'm talking about.

Most say, "from now on". I can't find the wording you show. From which version does it come?

"From now on"/ "from this moment on" is one and the same thing, doesn't really matter, we all know what it means. Considering that John was writing the revelation promptly, from the moment he penned those words as the revelation came, he ratified the new covenant because as it says, from that time onward, blessed are they that die in the Lord- simply means that the apostles and the 1st century church had already completed their mission of preaching the gospel to all the nations as a witness and now the 'end' had officially started from that point onward too.

Your knowledge of history is suspect.

I don't rely on history so much but the scripture.

I don't see it the way you do, and I don't accept your conclusion.

It is not a matter of seeing it in a certain way, it is what it is.
1 Cor 13 is about love/ 1 John 4 is also about love. There's only one Love and so they MUST be talking about this one love. It is love that makes perfect in both passages, there isn't any other way to look at it.