Speaking in tongues

[Sketch]

Romans 12: 3-8 Paul is addressing the church at Rome AD 58

3 God has allotted to each believer a measure of faith
4 not all members have the same function
6 we have gifts that differ according to the grace given us, let each person experience them accordingly:

if prophecy, then according to his faith,
if service, in his serving
he who teaches, in his teaching
he who exhorts, in his exhortation
he who gives liberally
he who leads with diligence
he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness

I do not see babble listed here. Tongues was a language. The apostles in Acts 2 used that gift of new language to share the gospel to the people who had come to Jersalem for the feast of harvest (Shavout), we see that there are like 12 different tribes represented there from places that did not share a common language.

oh, and prophecy means speaking forth the word of God for the edifying of the people.......not fortune-telling.

Why do you dismiss every mention of tongues outside of Acts chapter two?

Compared to the rest of the NT, Acts chapter two was an anomaly. Only happened once in the NT.
So, why would you base your definition of tongues on that and then disrespect the manifestation of the Holy Spirit outside of Acts chapter two by calling it "babble"? And even disrespect prophecy, calling it "fortune-telling"?
Sounds like raging Cessationism to me.

 

[notuptome]

Likewise.

1 Cor 14:39

Context not pretext.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

Context not pretext.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I agree; which is why I don't treat 13:8 as a pretext as you do.

 

[notuptome]

I agree; which is why I don't treat 13:8 as a pretext as you do.

Really deep and well thought out response, well that's a little snarky. You cannot set these two scriptures in opposition to one another.

Certainly we do not forbid tongues but the time of tongues has passed so it is no longer an issue as it was to the Corinthians.

We do not see tongues spoken outside of the initial baptism of the Holy Spirit in apostolic times. There is no support for tongues being spoken as a daily form of expression let alone worship. Never any evidence of praying in tongues. Paul's allusion to praying in tongues is clearly hyperbole when viewed in it's context.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

the Coriinthians were being scolded...again....by Paul for running amok with their excesses. I seem to remember Paul saying something about seeming to be a barbarian?

Historically these gifts ceased with the apostles. Have since manifested a few times in other centuries by heretics like the Montanists. The newer outbreak started in England and then at the camp meetings of Wesley. None of those so-called pastors preached sound doctrine, each had strange ideas. However there are gifts to the church of teaching, exhorting, hospitality, etc. and these did not pass away as the sign gifts did......for signs were for the Jews
22 SO THEN…..TONGUES ARE FOR A SIGN TO UNBELIEVERS (Jews according to v 21) and PROPHECY is for BELIEVERS

that is not correct the gift has not ceased with the apostles. Down through church history, the Holy Spirit has been using Christians in the gifts of the Holy Spirit seen in 1cor chapter 12 to 14.

 

[Dino246]

Really deep and well thought out response, well that's a little snarky.

In light of this response from you:

Context not pretext.

I'd say you're the proverbial pot.

When you're ready to hold your own reasoning to the same standards with which you examine mine, then you'll be ready for a discussion.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Pentecostalism is mysticism, …mysticism run amok. John Sherrill writes of seeing Jesus as a bright white light and Donald Gee says “we are taken into God and the soul will receive a consuming desire to ever more be utterly and entirely lost in Him. This is TYPICAL language of MYSTICISM.

Mysticism arises against the background of a decline in the spiritual life of the Church when it leans toward worldly and empty pursuits, a coldness toward scripture and church discipline
….then Pentecostalism seduces people with the allure of a ” real” Christian life, dynamic power and wonderful feelings.​

Mysticism bewitches it’s adherents by producing false signs and wonders and calling them miracles.
Miracles were signs of an APOSTLE, their credentials, as they laid the foundation of the church, Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 2: 3-4 connects the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit with the apostolic office:

“ God bearing THEM (the apostles) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His OWN WILL”​

The replacement of the bible with experience identifies Pentecostalism as a revival of the ancient heresy of mysticism. Pentecostals favorite words are: experience, power, feeling, ecstasy etc. This is Pentecostalism’s baptism “in” the Spirit, this is the nature of the Pentecostal meeting, this is its appeal to religious people, this is why women have a leading place in the movement.

Pentecostalism replaces the bible with experience/human feelings, which is one of their basic errors. Essentially it is an attack on the bible, whether it replaces the bible completely or it shoves scripture into the background or places experience alongside the bible. The cult runs down doctrine and speaks disparagingly of orthodoxy. Pentecostalism denies the bible as being the sole authority and full sufficiency of God’s word for the church…..which puts them directly in the Roman Catholic camp.

 

[garee]

the Coriinthians were being scolded...again....by Paul for running amok with their excesses. I seem to remember Paul saying something about seeming to be a barbarian?

Historically these gifts ceased with the apostles. Have since manifested a few times in other centuries by heretics like the Montanists. The newer outbreak started in England and then at the camp meetings of Wesley. None of those so-called pastors preached sound doctrine, each had strange ideas. However there are gifts to the church of teaching, exhorting,hospitality, etc. and these did not pass away as the sign gifts did......for signs were for the Jews
22 SO THEN…..TONGUES ARE FOR A SIGN TO UNBELIVERS (Jews according to v 21) and PROPHECY is for BELIEVERS

Not the person of the apostles. the word simply mean sent one. Some have added new meaning making the word "apostle" authorative ones and turned it into "Apostolical succession" as a way to venerate or worship the flesh

The spiritual gifts requiring prophecy ceased when God had finished writing his book of prophecy. Today no longer having it in part after any manner of prophecy (tongues, signs like that of Gideon, visions) It would be a addition and violate the warning,. He warns us in several ways "the perfect word has come" .and if any man say there is Christ or I heard new prophecy we are commanded to believe not .

The elect who heed the warning at the end of new prophecy would make it impossible to be deceived by thus says the lord or I had a tongue. We walk by faith the (unseen eternal) and wonder when he does come will he find it as it is written or will it be like the faithless in Genesis 6.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.Geneisis 6:5

The apostles were clearly warned before hand when they still had it (prophecy) in part.

Matthew 24:23-25 King James Version (KJV) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

It's not G. Gordon Campbell, it's G. Campbell Morgan. You really need to stop making up your own facts, yet now you're even making up names.

Do yourself a favor, accept publicly the correction you received for getting Pelagianism exactly backwards. You do not know what you're talking about, it is the exact opposite of Monergism and Calvinism. IOW it's heresy.

photo of G Gordon Campbell

 

[garee]

Romans 12 is not the same as 1Corinthians 12 and 14 which specifically list the nine specific gifts by the Holy Spirit that are distributed and readily available to the Pentecostal congregation of the Spirit-filled church.
Included in this list are three voice gifts: diversity of tongues; interpretation and prophecy (inspired speaking).
My church operates these three gifts at our worship meetings following the specific instructions laid out in 1Corinthians 14 by Paul.

Getting back to Romans 12, here Paul is describing gifts/talents distributed for the effective functioning of various offices and ministries necessary in the church as there are many members and all can not be doing the same work:

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teaches, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorts, on exhortation: he that gives, let him do it with simplicity; he that rules, with diligence; he that shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

The Jews that walked by sight continually tried to make Jesus into a circus seal as if the kingdom of God not of this world, came by observing to confirm something?

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Tongues is clearly a sign confirming those who do not believe prophecy .(another gospel ) signs and wonders.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

That sign is fulfilled .Why look for another rather than walking by faith (the unseen eternal) ?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

act

photo of G Gordon Campbell

Actually that isn't the G Gordon I had in mind.......LOL...........but you are right, I typed too fast and got my hands movig quicker than my brain,....and made that error

I was quoting Gordon "Campbell" Morgan and thanks for the correction

 

[GraceAndTruth]

preacher4truth said:


It's not G. Gordon Campbell, it's G. Campbell Morgan. You really need to stop making up your own facts, yet now you're even making up names.

Do yourself a favor, accept publicly the correction you received for getting Pelagianism exactly backwards. You do not know what you're talking about, it is the exact opposite of Monergism and Calvinism. IOW it's heresy.

FYI: I corrected the Pelagian error, i meant to write Preterism.........guess you missed that, huh?
and......I just corrected the G Gordon thing........
but thanks so much for your VERY kind and considerate bash.
FYI I dont' make things UP!!!

 

[preacher4truth]

photo of G Gordon Campbell

Cool you found a feller by the name of the above I think but the picture doesn't prove your case, hon.

It was G Campbell Morgan who said "the last vomit of Satan."

 

[preacher4truth]

photo of G Gordon Campbell

This is who you're talking about, a politician, doesn't hardly fit your usage.

 

[CS1]

Pentecostalism is mysticism, …mysticism run amok. John Sherrill writes of seeing Jesus as a bright white light and Donald Gee says “we are taken into God and the soul will receive a consuming desire to ever more be utterly and entirely lost in Him. This is TYPICAL language of MYSTICISM.

Mysticism arises against the background of a decline in the spiritual life of the Church when it leans toward worldly and empty pursuits, a coldness toward scripture and church discipline
….then Pentecostalism seduces people with the allure of a ” real” Christian life, dynamic power and wonderful feelings.​

Mysticism bewitches it’s adherents by producing false signs and wonders and calling them miracles.
Miracles were signs of an APOSTLE, their credentials, as they laid the foundation of the church, Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 2: 3-4 connects the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit with the apostolic office:

“ God bearing THEM (the apostles) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His OWN WILL”​

The replacement of the bible with experience identifies Pentecostalism as a revival of the ancient heresy of mysticism. Pentecostals favorite words are: experience, power, feeling, ecstasy etc. This is Pentecostalism’s baptism “in” the Spirit, this is the nature of the Pentecostal meeting, this is its appeal to religious people, this is why women have a leading place in the movement.

Pentecostalism replaces the bible with experience/human feelings, which is one of their basic errors. Essentially it is an attack on the bible, whether it replaces the bible completely or it shoves scripture into the background or places experience alongside the bible. The cult runs down doctrine and speaks disparagingly of orthodoxy. Pentecostalism denies the bible as being the sole authority and full sufficiency of God’s word for the church…..which puts them directly in the Roman Catholic camp.

Actually this is not true, with some it is but not with the founding experience. Pentecostals don’t seek a feeling they seek what is spoken in the word of God. Where the Gospel of John says Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit, which is documented in the Book of Acts repeatedly. To suggest it is an attack on the Bible is foolishness and opinionated

 

[garee]

Pentecostalism replaces the bible with experience/human feelings, which is one of their basic errors. Essentially it is an attack on the bible, whether it replaces the bible completely or it shoves scripture into the background or places experience alongside the bible. The cult runs down doctrine and speaks disparagingly of orthodoxy. Pentecostalism denies the bible as being the sole authority and full sufficiency of God’s word for the church…..which puts them directly in the Roman Catholic camp.

I would agree with that. Experiencing the work of a thing seen like in the garden of Eden transferred faith from the true source coming from the thing not seen as the holy place of God, to a creature seen the unholy place of the father of lies.

If experience was the validating authority of the unseen spiritual manners .Then Christ failed the test of the scapegoat at the beginning of His ministry . If experience was the source of faith. The Son of man would of bowed down to the images as lying signs and wonders rather than stating the one true authority not seen, as it is written with the word it representing the faith of God not seen.

Three times Christ replied again and again as it is written The devil was out of there.

 

[Dino246]

Pentecostalism is mysticism, …mysticism run amok. John Sherrill writes of seeing Jesus as a bright white light and Donald Gee says “we are taken into God and the soul will receive a consuming desire to ever more be utterly and entirely lost in Him. This is TYPICAL language of MYSTICISM.

Mysticism arises against the background of a decline in the spiritual life of the Church when it leans toward worldly and empty pursuits, a coldness toward scripture and church discipline
….then Pentecostalism seduces people with the allure of a ” real” Christian life, dynamic power and wonderful feelings.​

Mysticism bewitches it’s adherents by producing false signs and wonders and calling them miracles.
Miracles were signs of an APOSTLE, their credentials, as they laid the foundation of the church, Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 2: 3-4 connects the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit with the apostolic office:

“ God bearing THEM (the apostles) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His OWN WILL”​

The replacement of the bible with experience identifies Pentecostalism as a revival of the ancient heresy of mysticism. Pentecostals favorite words are: experience, power, feeling, ecstasy etc. This is Pentecostalism’s baptism “in” the Spirit, this is the nature of the Pentecostal meeting, this is its appeal to religious people, this is why women have a leading place in the movement.

Pentecostalism replaces the bible with experience/human feelings, which is one of their basic errors. Essentially it is an attack on the bible, whether it replaces the bible completely or it shoves scripture into the background or places experience alongside the bible. The cult runs down doctrine and speaks disparagingly of orthodoxy. Pentecostalism denies the bible as being the sole authority and full sufficiency of God’s word for the church…..which puts them directly in the Roman Catholic camp.

It's easy to dismiss a doctrine by dismissing some who promote it. It's also a genetic fallacy.

This thread is about speaking in tongues, not Pentecostalism.

 

[notuptome]

In light of this response from you:



I'd say you're the proverbial pot.

When you're ready to hold your own reasoning to the same standards with which you examine mine, then you'll be ready for a discussion.

Well say what you want but the bible cannot contradict itself. 1 Cot 13:8 and 1 Cor 14:39 contribute to the same continuity as all the other words in scripture.

Tongues and Pentecostalism are a recent event in church history.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sketch]

Tongues and Pentecostalism are a recent event in church history.

Recent event? Explain.

 

[Dino246]

Well say what you want but the bible cannot contradict itself. 1 Cot 13:8 and 1 Cor 14:39 contribute to the same continuity as all the other words in scripture.

Tongues and Pentecostalism are a recent event in church history.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Once again, this thread is not about Pentecostalism. Tongues were evident at the beginning of the Church. I guess that's recent on a geological time scale, but not on a historical one.

I agree that Scripture does not contradict itself, which is one reason why I don't accept your interpretation of 13:8.