Speaking in tongues

[wolfwint]

This is my post. in the above post it is not clear what is from me ans what from CS1

Sorry long taking for answer.
At First, I said nothing against the baptism of the Holy Spirit itself.
I said before 1901 you find no teaching in the postapostolic Time and even not in the NT writing to the churches. That the speaking in tongues was given as sign for every believer who got the Holy Spirit.
Speaking in tongues you can find in the eatly church, but it has stopped. Augustine asked once his listeners how they could now know that they received the Holy Spirit, because the speaking in tongues has stoppen in bis Time and was only given in the former Time.
There is no Proof from the churchfathers you mentioned that the speaking in tongues was given to every believer as it is reportet in Acts 2, 10, 8 ore 19. But many Cults like the montanism came up, to whom later also Terrtullian belongs.
Later during the Reformation Time Non of the Founders taught in their churches that the receive the Holy Spirit and as sign for that the Gift of speaking in tongues.
But many movements and Cults came up who emphazise prophecies, like the " small prophets" in France, where even Kindergarten age Kids spoke prophetic in Sleep. This ,movement spread then in Europe and went over in the movement of the "inspired" which claimes their revealings from the Holy Spirit are equal with the bible. In the radical wing of pietism they had also prophetic gifts and speaking in tongues which influenced the holiness movement. But even there it was not taught that speaking in tongues is the Proof that one received the Holy Spirit.
Along with Cults like the Irvingians and Mormons which emphazise also prophecies and speaking in tongues. I do not find any Proof for the pentecostal doctrine: Who receives the Holy Spirit receives as proof for tha also the Gift of speaking in tongues.

To Add, 1- in Mission situation God often uses extraordinal ways and methods to reach the nonbelievers. ( Dreams, Vision, healings, speaking in tongues)
Joel 2 is taking out of context, otherwise pentecost7charismatic view is not to hold-

 

[CS1]

So when Somebody receives the Holy Spirit according your view? In the Water baptism? when someone " takes Jesus in bis heart"?
You are right, there is only one baptism with the Holy Spirit.

NO water baptism has nothing to do with Empowering of the Holy Spirit

 

[CS1]

So you waited all that time to tell me your opinion?

You said :
"I said before 1901 you find no teaching in the postapostolic Time and even not in the NT writing to the churches."

are you suggesting the writings of 1cor 12, 13, 14, the Book Of Acts and the Gospel of John 14 & 16 in Context to the Empowering and Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today, because you say we find not postapostolic writings to the churches? Excuse me I did not know we were not to see the Bible as timeless and for today for instruction in godly living and appropriate worship.

are you yet again suggesting those who speak in tongues are in a cult? Nothing you have provided in your response which I gave you numerous historical data, from eyewitnesses and writings from a time frame you said did not happen prior to 1901
This is why I will not speak to people like you. You go back when you can't prove your opinion then result in subtle attacks and equating the gifts of the Holy Spirit to that of cults.

Please do not respond to my post you and I will not agree and I'm tired of people like you suggesting people like me ae of a cult.
You can't show me in the word of god ONE verse that says the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today. Not one. SO because you can't do that you have to interject cultism to discredit what you do not agree with. were done.

Thank you

 

[wolfwint]

So you waited all that time to tell me your opinion?

You said :
"I said before 1901 you find no teaching in the postapostolic Time and even not in the NT writing to the churches."

are you suggesting the writings of 1cor 12, 13, 14, the Book Of Acts and the Gospel of John 14 & 16 in Context to the Empowering and Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today, because you say we find not postapostolic writings to the churches? Excuse me I did not know we were not to see the Bible as timeless and for today for instruction in godly living and appropriate worship.

are you yet again suggesting those who speak in tongues are in a cult? Nothing you have provided in your response which I gave you numerous historical data, from eyewitnesses and writings from a time frame you said did not happen prior to 1901
This is why I will not speak to people like you. You go back when you can't prove your opinion then result in subtle attacks and equating the gifts of the Holy Spirit to that of cults.

Please do not respond to my post you and I will not agree and I'm tired of people like you suggesting people like me ae of a cult.
You can't show me in the word of god ONE verse that says the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today. Not one. SO because you can't do that you have to interject cultism to discredit what you do not agree with. were done.

Thank you

Sorry for disturbing you. But you did not read my post.
I can find the Lords doings today, of course, but what i cant find is this teaching: Baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that the speaking in tongues. Non of the references you gave me are a proof for this teaching.
Have a blessed day!

 

[wolfwint]

NO water baptism has nothing to do with Empowering of the Holy Spirit

You gave no answer and you did not read what I wrote. Otherwise I cant understand your answer.

 

[garee]

What? And no prophecy in the Bible is for private interpretation, meaning opinions. Those are facts and some of course are yet to be fulfilled. True Christians will not rely on opinions by religions, denominations, and preachers. They should be discerning all that they hear and read through the filter in relation to what they know of the Bible. Do a word search of the word "opinion" in the Bible. You will be shocked. 3 times in Job 32 when one of his adversaries rebukes him. In USA, we are overwhelmed with opinions everywhere. I have shared the severe warnings with many about adding or subtracting from God's Word. But most sermons and Bible study books add and many "sinner's prayer"s of easy believism and Grace only preachers subtract from the truths in Romans 3-10. We should be focusing on learning more and more the facts in the Bible so we can know what is true and false in the news, in sermons, in radio and tv programs, and in the Internet, and in other books.

I only have received new understandings of God's wonderful truths and wisdom when I ETRSF Scripture with Holy Spirit guidance.
***God said,

Hi Bill thanks for the reply.

I understand that you recive new understanding of God's wonderful truth and wisdom with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That applies to everyone born from above. And he can increase our faith or learning My suggestion was God is longer bringing any new revelations called private revelations. Revelations are interpretations it just a matter who are they from are they inspired from earth or from heaven like the doctrine of God? The things of God not seen or those of men seen ?

The Book of Revelation is still the last book in the Bible.

And no prophecy in the Bible is for private interpretation, meaning opinions.

I am not sure what that was is reference to or where you got it from ? Was there something I said? I mentioned the idea of or coming from private interpretation but not for private interpretation.

We all have private interpretations as opinions or personal commetariies. The word heresy is opinion and can be used to form the word sect or denomination, a group sharing like or similar opinions.

Its just not scripture or prophecy coming from above. If we have the sure word as a law it is not subject to change. Why would we resort to a opinion or heresy when we do have his perfect law ?

2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I would offer he is still moving men but is no longer bring any new revelation.

 

[garee]

You sure twist what I state. And make wrong assumptions.

All religions (even some of the cults like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and small churches that are led by an arrogant and dictator leader) and self-professing modern prophets do say and write a lot of truth. They have to believe and live enough of God's truths in order to be successful. But again, I wrote that God has not changed the 100% fulfillment rule and the manifestation of the Fruit of the Spirit for determining those truely called by God to do such leadership and teaching. The School of the Prophets in Kansas City is wrong. But the sign gifts and new understandings as 1 Corinthians 14 indicates have not ceased yet. But the false prophecies and spiritual enemy done signs and wonders are preparing for many to be fooled as Revelation indicates during the World-wide Tribulation. It even says somewhere that even some of the elect will be deceived. But God still does miraculous healings now. And there are still many who receive visions and the gift of tongues from Him, including many Muslims who have converted to Christianity even though in Muslim countries they will be sought out to be killed. We are still so spoiled in the USA with religious freedom and so many different kinds of churches. But in regards to the latter, the countries with only 2 or a few more kinds of churches like Pakistan, don't have the confusion in choosing which church to attend. Paul said that we all "see through a glass darkly" meaning no one knows all of the wonderful truths of God. Let us do and encourage others just to get back to the basics of true Christianity and stop doing fruitless arguing. Discussions where all just want to learn more is the best way to go forth for Christian Sanctification. USA Churches should be using the religious freedom to have Bible discussion groups every day and night. Most don't retain much if any from sermons or seminar lectures. And try the logical indenting of Scripture I mentioned in the previous message I sent. God bless you and your family.

 

[garee]

You sure twist what I state. And make wrong assumptions.

All religions (even some of the cults like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and small churches that are led by an arrogant and dictator leader) and self-professing modern prophets do say and write a lot of truth. They have to believe and live enough of God's truths in order to be successful. But again, I wrote that God has not changed the 100% fulfillment rule and the manifestation of the Fruit of the Spirit for determining those truely called by God to do such leadership and teaching. The School of the Prophets in Kansas City is wrong. But the sign gifts and new understandings as 1 Corinthians 14 indicates have not ceased yet. But the false prophecies and spiritual enemy done signs and wonders are preparing for many to be fooled as Revelation indicates during the World-wide Tribulation. It even says somewhere that even some of the elect will be deceived. But God still does miraculous healings now. And there are still many who receive visions and the gift of tongues from Him, including many Muslims who have converted to Christianity even though in Muslim countries they will be sought out to be killed. We are still so spoiled in the USA with religious freedom and so many different kinds of churches. But in regards to the latter, the countries with only 2 or a few more kinds of churches like Pakistan, don't have the confusion in choosing which church to attend. Paul said that we all "see through a glass darkly" meaning no one knows all of the wonderful truths of God. Let us do and encourage others just to get back to the basics of true Christianity and stop doing fruitless arguing. Discussions where all just want to learn more is the best way to go forth for Christian Sanctification. USA Churches should be using the religious freedom to have Bible discussion groups every day and night. Most don't retain much if any from sermons or seminar lectures. And try the logical indenting of Scripture I mentioned in the previous message I sent. God bless you and your family.

A person can error in their opinions and it does not make them a cult a word derived from a form of worship.

But what would make them false prophets is they add to the perfect law, the bible or substract from it with thus says the Lord I had a vision or dream knowing he has spoken. Our Living God's last new revelation was over two thousand years ago.

Both the Mormon with the Book of Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses with its written authority of their fathers error in that way .Therefore widening the authority of Scripture alone (sola scriptura) narrowing it to fit the oral traditions of men. And in the end of the matter make God's word alone of no effect.They simply violate the warning not to add or subtract from the whole or perfect. This is unlike the warning in Deuteronomy 4 in respect to a single word. changing the meaning intended of one word can change the authors intent just as adding a book to widen the authority .


Both warning (Deuteronomy 4 and Revelation 22) together protecting the integrity of the word of God as the one way to God unseen. You could say like the flaming sword in the garden of Eden..... the armor of God representing the incorruptible word of God. No adding or substracting

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.Genesis 3:24

 

[CS1]

Sorry for disturbing you. But you did not read my post.
I can find the Lords doings today, of course, but what i cant find is this teaching: Baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that the speaking in tongues. Non of the references you gave me are a proof for this teaching.
Have a blessed day!

The context of initial evidence as tongues being a sign as one being baptized in the Holy Spirit is from the book of Acts. Every time one was empowered with the Holy Spirit tongues or prophesying, was done immediately by the believer. This is seen on the day of Pentecost Acts 2:4-6, Acts 8 Acts 9, Acts 10:44-46 Acts 19:6



it is only in Acts 8 account were tongues is not mentioned what was it that Simon saw when Hands were laid on Believers ? From the word of God from the other verses may have been tongues or prophesying. This were the “initial evidence “teaching comes from.

If you don't agree no problem, it is not an essential of the faith or required for salvation.

 

[CS1]

You gave no answer and you did not read what I wrote. Otherwise I cant understand your answer.

"So when Somebody receives the Holy Spirit according your view? In the Water baptism? when someone " takes Jesus in bis heart"?
You are right, there is only one baptism with the Holy Spirit."

maybe you should look at your post first .

 

[Dino246]

Hi Bill thanks for the reply.

I understand that you recive new understanding of God's wonderful truth and wisdom with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That applies to everyone born from above. And he can increase our faith or learning My suggestion was God is longer bringing any new revelations called private revelations. Revelations are interpretations it just a matter who are they from are they inspired from earth or from heaven like the doctrine of God? The things of God not seen or those of men seen ?

The Book of Revelation is still the last book in the Bible.



I am not sure what that was is reference to or where you got it from ? Was there something I said? I mentioned the idea of or coming from private interpretation but not for private interpretation.

We all have private interpretations as opinions or personal commetariies. The word heresy is opinion and can be used to form the word sect or denomination, a group sharing like or similar opinions.

Its just not scripture or prophecy coming from above. If we have the sure word as a law it is not subject to change. Why would we resort to a opinion or heresy when we do have his perfect law ?

2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I would offer he is still moving men but is no longer bring any new revelation.

Unfortunately you simply don't demonstrate any understanding of a living relationship with God. Of course He speaks through His word, but He also speaks directly with His children.

What you keep conflating is limited communication (for an individual or group) and wholesale communication (for the entire Church). Scripture is revelation for everyone. The prophecy written of in 1 Corinthians is not wholesale, but for specific persons. Therefore it is not adding to Scripture. "Prophecy" that contradicts Scripture is not from the Holy Spirit. "Prophecy" that purports to add to Scripture is (or should be) rejected. What is left is revelation that is pertinent to an individual or group but not to the entire Church.

And please, don't respond with the garbage about "no new revelations". That will only confirm that you just don't get it.

 

[CS1]

Unfortunately you simply don't demonstrate any understanding of a living relationship with God. Of course He speaks through His word, but He also speaks directly with His children.

What you keep conflating is limited communication (for an individual or group) and wholesale communication (for the entire Church). Scripture is revelation for everyone. The prophecy written of in 1 Corinthians is not wholesale, but for specific persons. Therefore it is not adding to Scripture. "Prophecy" that contradicts Scripture is not from the Holy Spirit. "Prophecy" that purports to add to Scripture is (or should be) rejected. What is left is revelation that is pertinent to an individual or group but not to the entire Church.

And please, don't respond with the garbage about "no new revelations". That will only confirm that you just don't get it.

that is the false narrative. Only ignorant people would think the revelation is new meaning In addition to what is already written, the problem is the understanding of what a person comes to KNOW and when they come to know it. That is new to them but not to God who has enabled them to understand. 1cor 14:38 applies here .

 

[wolfwint]

The context of initial evidence as tongues being a sign as one being baptized in the Holy Spirit is from the book of Acts. Every time one was empowered with the Holy Spirit tongues or prophesying, was done immediately by the believer. This is seen on the day of Pentecost Acts 2:4-6, Acts 8 Acts 9, Acts 10:44-46 Acts 19:6



it is only in Acts 8 account were tongues is not mentioned what was it that Simon saw when Hands were laid on Believers ? From the word of God from the other verses may have been tongues or prophesying. This were the “initial evidence “teaching comes from.

If you don't agree no problem, it is not an essential of the faith or required for salvation.

The events in acts you quotet I agree, as that what is written for.
But this teaching we cant find anywhere! If it would be normal for every christian then we must not disscus it. But in the NT letters nor in any teaching in the churchhistory we find it. Thats the problem I have to agree with you in this point.
And the other thing is, that you can see simply in act 2, 8, 10 and 19 that God shows that the Holy Spirit came for all who believe, independ from the background.
And a 3rd thing. Acts was written down when? Later then it happend i think. Why we find no other place in NT where this is taught? For the ministrie of an believer a important thing to know, when I compare how it is taught today in pentecostal and charismatic churches.

 

[CS1]

The events in acts you quotet I agree, as that what is written for.
But this teaching we cant find anywhere! If it would be normal for every christian then we must not disscus it. But in the NT letters nor in any teaching in the churchhistory we find it. Thats the problem I have to agree with you in this point.
And the other thing is, that you can see simply in act 2, 8, 10 and 19 that God shows that the Holy Spirit came for all who believe, independ from the background.
And a 3rd thing. Acts was written down when? Later then it happend i think. Why we find no other place in NT where this is taught? For the ministrie of an believer a important thing to know, when I compare how it is taught today in pentecostal and charismatic churches.

Are we not to get our Doctine(teaching) from the word of God? If yes then the application of the inital evidence came from the word of God . You can disagree but yopu can't say it is not seen as the point Biblically.

 

[BibleloverBill]

And no prophecy in the Bible is for private interpretation, meaning opinions. Those are facts and some of course are yet to be fulfilled. True Christians will not rely on opinions by religions, denominations, and preachers. They should be discerning all that they hear and read through the filter in relation to what they know of the Bible. Do a word search of the word "opinion" in the Bible. You will be shocked. 3 times in Job 32 when one of his adversaries rebukes him. In USA, we are overwhelmed with opinions everywhere. I have shared the severe warnings with many about adding or subtracting from God's Word. But most sermons and Bible study books add and many "sinner's prayer"s of easy believism and Grace only preachers subtract from the truths in Romans 3-10. We should be focusing on learning more and more the facts in the Bible so we can know what is true and false in the news, in sermons, in radio and TV programs, and in the Internet, and in other books.

 

[BibleloverBill]

Are we not to get our Doctine(teaching) from the word of God? If yes then the application of the inital evidence came from the word of God . You can disagree but yopu can't say it is not seen as the point Biblically.

The proper teaching about the ministries of the Holy Spirit is in John 14-17 and Ephesians 5.

I have experienced all of the spiritual gifts including speaking and singing in tongues. I don't believe that all Christians have to experience the gift of tongues.

 

[BibleloverBill]

I believe the famous Baptist Bible teaching pastors are born again true Christians even though they are even against the doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit being only speaking in tongues.

 

[CS1]

The proper teaching about the ministries of the Holy Spirit is in John 14-17 and Ephesians 5.

I have experienced all of the spiritual gifts including speaking and singing in tongues. I don't believe that all Christians have to experience the gift of tongues.

the Holy Spirt in the life of the believer is to lead and Guide and bring to rememberance all Jesus has said ? the Word of god is how that happens . I do not believe every christian has the gift of tongues. I do see where in the word of God this seems to be one of two manisfation of one being baptzied in the Holy Spirit . Thus the initial evidence doctrine. weather they do it after as in 1cor 12 to 14 speaks about , I do not see that.

 

[BibleloverBill]

The context of initial evidence as tongues being a sign as one being baptized in the Holy Spirit is from the book of Acts. Every time one was empowered with the Holy Spirit tongues or prophesying, was done immediately by the believer. This is seen on the day of Pentecost Acts 2:4-6, Acts 8 Acts 9, Acts 10:44-46 Acts 19:6



it is only in Acts 8 account were tongues is not mentioned what was it that Simon saw when Hands were laid on Believers ? From the word of God from the other verses may have been tongues or prophesying. This were the “initial evidence “teaching comes from.

If you don't agree no problem, it is not an essential of the faith or required for salvation.

NT-06-- Acts in ERTSF with questions (42 pgs.)
https://app.box.com/s/8lqg6hhbhtdob6tpkf988fbfie2fargq

 

[wolfwint]

Are we not to get our Doctine(teaching) from the word of God? If yes then the application of the inital evidence came from the word of God . You can disagree but yopu can't say it is not seen as the point Biblically.

If you claim that a doctrine which was not taught during the apostolic time and also not in churchhistory, but since 1901, then I dont would say its biblical, although its mentioned in the bible. Many people/ groups teach doctrines based of the bible. But i would not say they are biblical.