Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14

[eternally-gratefull]

One answer to your question is to reply "Do you feel the need to label Peter as 'unsaved' prior to the outpouring on the day of Pentecost?" Or was he simply "saved"(kept, protected, delivered) all the way to the day of Pentecost when Jesus gave him the next necessary thing?

You can not use that as an example. Because God did not give the HS to anyone until the day of pentecost.

"Saved" or "unsaved" are labels some churches like to pin on people. I feel no need to label someone that way.

1. A person either has the Holy Ghost, or they don't.
2. A person either has been water baptized (dunked in water in Jesus name for remission of sins), or they haven't.
3. A person either believes, or doesn't.
4. A person either is in God's will, or they aren't.
5. A person either is lying, or they aren't.
6. Etc, etc.

If you do not have the HS under the new covenant. You are not saved, In eph 1. Paul made it clear. The moment we place our faith in Christ, we are sealed with the HS of promise.

You are really worrying me when you state that our remission of sins comes through water baptism. That is not the case, Our washing (remission) is performed by the HS. Not by some sinner immersing you in water.

Saved is a state of being, It is not a church word, Paul says we have been saved numerous times..

As I read Acts 8 (or 2, 10, or 19) as it describes the status of each person/group, I can clearly see the status of each of those first 3 items...without feeling the need to label them as "saved" or "unsaved" at any point. And I don't feel conflicted about it.

For someone who feels the need to apply the label "Saved" ... Well, that person may feel conflicted because they now have to choose a point at which to apply the label of "saved" in a way that remains consistent with all the beliefs they've attached to that label. Go ahead and try it with Acts 8:12-17 and tell me at which point you would call them "saved".

I am not conflicted at all. I am just a person who likes to take things literally.
Your either saved (a child of God who is no longer under condemnation, because you have been WASHED and made ALIVE (regenerated) because you have been redeemed of the penalty of sin through the death of Christ, as such you were perfected forever, and have started the process of being sanctified or made christlike. Or, like John said, We have been given the RIGHT be become children of God by believing in his name, and we HAVE eternal life.

These and many many other things are things each child of God receives at the moment of salvation. And we should take them not only as wonderful gifts. But things which keep us grounded in faith, Because those are the things which give us rest, Which give us the ability to come to God as an loving ABBA father not a dictator who will kick you out of his family if you screw up.

Again, You worry me about your lax interpretation of words and terms, as if they are just words, and not basic bible truths about God and his people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good explanation stones. I was trying for full understanding while I was praying in tongues, because Oral Roberts taught that it was possible. I was getting a few things when God stopped me. He then told me that I do not want to know every little detail about what the Spirit prays. He said the prayer might be about an auto accident I will have next week. If the Spirit revealed that to me, I would do nothing but worry about it. What is worry? A lack of faith.

Sometimes when praying our flesh pops up and started repeating words or we ask for things that are not expedient for our spiritual growth. When that happens, I just let the Spirit take over and not try to figure it all out. That is what Paul meant by "my understanding is unfruitful" (1 Cor. 14:14).

See this is where I am utterly confused.

Why does the HS have to speak babble here when you cannot understand? Why can he just not speak in the presence of God what is needed, and I know and trust he is doing that for me.

who really has more faith? The one who has a sign which can not be proven, or the one who trusts God is doing what he promised even though he can not see it happen?

i am not saying this to be mean spirited, I am just saying it to make a point.

 

[garee]

I still do not agree. That chapter after He tells Nicodemus John is baptizing in water so its clear they go together. Nicodemus was not given Spiritual insight. It was not for him to recieve. He even tells him that he doesnt believe so why should he tell him things concerning heavenly things.

So no He didnt share with Him what it was. But its clear to be born again is done with water and Spirit. We cannot exclude water baptism. For that same reason Jesus fullfilled that duty by being immersed Himself.

Do you really think Jesus needed to be baptized in water? Even John was puzzled. Its clear that Jesus was being obedient to God. Jesus need not get remission for sins Jesus was sinless. Think of that and see if you can get a clear definitive reason for Jesus to be baptized in water other than obeying Gods commands.

All love brother. We need to sharpen eachother and stand firm in our beliefs and be clear in our beliefs. Im open to truth. God bless you

No sign gifts. This is something performed outwardly as away of confirming the unseen work. We walk by faith the unseen eternal .

Water baptism has to do with the Old testament cerinimoinal law that was used when a new priest entered the ministry . When Jesus came he came to establish the new order as a kingdom of priest after melchezedek. The priesthood was no longer after the manner of Levi. .John the Baptist was the last Levi priest. The Levitical priesthood had come to a end .The time of reformation had come.

Its what the discussion was about in John 3. Here we have this person named Jesus from the tribe of Judah being baptized as a new member of the priesthood to symbolize our High priest as the Son of God a priest continually and then he is performing the priestly duties of welcoming other new members .

In chapter 4 he is sent out into the world to begin the work of bring the gospel, sent into the wilderness as a picture of our scapegoat.
To be born of the water and the Spirit is simply saying to be born again of the incorruptible seed of the word of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Deade]

See this is where I am utterly confused.

Why does the HS have to speak babble here when you cannot understand? Why can he just not speak in the presence of God what is needed, and I know and trust he is doing that for me.

who really has more faith? The one who has a sign which can not be proven, or the one who trusts God is doing what he promised even though he can not see it happen?

i am not saying this to be mean spirited, I am just saying it to make a point.

The thing is EG, you don't have to get it. God is not going to force anything on you that you do not believe. All this nay-saying will accomplish nothing. The only people pushing against this are people that have been hurt by someone trying to force the gift on them. Are you one of those? If not, best just to move on.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The thing is EG, you don't have to get it. God is not going to force anything on you that you do not believe. All this nay-saying will accomplish nothing. The only people pushing against this are people that have been hurt by someone trying to force the gift on them. Are you one of those? If not, best just to move on.

Lol.

So let me get this straight

1. I am an unbeliever
2. I am pushing against something (when I am not, I am just asking questions)
3. I have been hurt somehow??
4. I should move on.

Whatever man, you should listen to what you just said, and think about what you just did..

I think my question was valid. If you do not think so. Thats fine, But don’t scream when you feel attacked by people who disagree wiht you when you do the same thing.

 

[Deade]

Lol.

So let me get this straight

1. I am an unbeliever
2. I am pushing against something (when I am not, I am just asking questions)
3. I have been hurt somehow??
4. I should move on.

Whatever man, you should listen to what you just said, and think about what you just did..

I did not call you an unbeliever and if you say you are not pushing, okay.

 

[garee]

Good explanation stones. I was trying for full understanding while I was praying in tongues, because Oral Roberts taught that it was possible. I was getting a few things when God stopped me. He then told me that I do not want to know every little detail about what the Spirit prays. He said the prayer might be about an auto accident I will have next week. If the Spirit revealed that to me, I would do nothing but worry about it. What is worry? A lack of faith.

God brings his interpretation with the revelation. He does not say go find the private interpretation from another sinner. Their guess is better than ours.

We are warned of men saying we need a man seen to teach us. Make a noise and get yourself a private interpretation is the motive of operation of the antichrists (1 John 2 )

The worry would not be the lack of faith but more what "source of faith" . Two possible masters when it comes to that source.. The things of men, the temporal seen, or that of God the eternal not seen.?

Does faith come from something we do in order to confirm something? Or does it come from some unseen thing that he performs in us. as in no outward sign?

Sometimes when praying our flesh pops up and started repeating words or we ask for things that are not expedient for our spiritual growth. When that happens, I just let the Spirit take over and not try to figure it all out. That is what Paul meant by "my understanding is unfruitful" (1 Cor. 14:14).

So then do you just empty your mind of all thoughts when this spirit takes over your fleshly mind ?

What would be the purpose of just opening ones fleshly mind the to the spirit world. Jesus our example refused to worship experience as a source of faith when he was in the dessert. He gave glory to the one source of faith (as it is written)

I would study looking to the foundation of tongues )old testament) as to why and what as a sign it confirms and the law written in respect to it. Then the rest of the doctrine falls into place . Otherwise a person will have to face... let the Spirit take over and not try to figure it all out.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a "voluntary humility" and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, Colossian 2:18

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I did not call you an unbeliever and if you say you are not pushing, okay.

You insinuated such when you said God will not force anything on me if I did not believe,

 

[TLC209]

No sign gifts. This is something performed outwardly as away of confirming the unseen work. We walk by faith the unseen eternal .

Water baptism has to do with the Old testament cerinimoinal law that was used when a new priest entered the ministry . When Jesus came he came to establish the new order as a kingdom of priest after melchezedek. The priesthood was no longer after the manner of Levi. .John the Baptist was the last Levi priest. The Levitical priesthood had come to a end .The time of reformation had come.

Its what the discussion was about in John 3. Here we have this person named Jesus from the tribe of Judah being baptized as a new member of the priesthood to symbolize our High priest as the Son of God a priest continually and then he is performing the priestly duties of welcoming other new members .

In chapter 4 he is sent out into the world to begin the work of bring the gospel, sent into the wilderness as a picture of our scapegoat.
To be born of the water and the Spirit is simply saying to be born again of the incorruptible seed of the word of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

How do you jump from being born again of water and Spirit to 1 Peter 1:23 ?

Do you know what 1 Peter 1:23 is saying? The incorruptible see which is the Word of God. Do you know who the Word of God is? Thats Jesus. John1:14 the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is the incorruptible seed.

So being born again of Jesus which liveth and abideth forever, means to be born of His Spirit. He baptized us in the Holy Spirit. We also add water baptizm because Jesus commanded us to. He said to baptize all in the name.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[Deade]

You insinuated such when you said God will not force anything on me if I did not believe,

Read it again EG: God will not force on you anything (any gift) you do not believe (on or in). It had nothing to do with belief in general.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read it again EG: God will not force on you anything (any gift) you do not believe (on or in). It had nothing to do with belief in general.

Which means I do not believe (in the gift)

That is not true, That was my point I just do not believe all of what someone claims is a gift of tongues is an actual gift..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How do you jump from being born again of water and Spirit to 1 Peter 1:23 ?

Do you know what 1 Peter 1:23 is saying? The incorruptible see which is the Word of God. Do you know who the Word of God is? Thats Jesus. John1:14 the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is the incorruptible seed.

So being born again of Jesus which liveth and abideth forever, means to be born of His Spirit. He baptized us in the Holy Spirit. We also add water baptizm because Jesus commanded us to. He said to baptize all in the name.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jesus gave many commands, Which do we have to follow first before we are saved?

 

[TLC209]

Jesus gave many commands, Which do we have to follow first before we are saved?

Why does everything revolve around being saved? I thought Jesus came to reconcile us to God. Isnt that what He did on the cross? Everyone seems to focus on "saved" and what doctrine shows you are "saved" and can you lose "salvation".

Seems like the motives are wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why does everything revolve around being saved? I thought Jesus came to reconcile us to God. Isnt that what He did on the cross? Everyone seems to focus on "saved" and what doctrine shows you are "saved" and can you lose "salvation".

Seems like the motives are wrong.

Well lets see. The bible says we are ALL under the condemnation of sin, And under adam.

Should not our first priority be to have that condemnation removed? Because if we are still condemned, or even have the possibility of being condemned. Then everything else does not even matter

Being saved is the BEGINNING point of our walk with God. It is the day of adoption. Everythign else follows this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Seems like the motives are wrong.

By the way, there is only one motive, To teach the ONE gospel that paul said was the true gospel in Gal 3. And not believe, trust in, or teach a different gospel. Which paul said is not a replacement gospel. And whoever teaches is should be anathema.

So paul even claims it is a prety important thing..

 

[Deade]

Which means I do not believe (in the gift)

That is not true, That was my point I just do not believe all of what someone claims is a gift of tongues is an actual gift..

So you are going to decide my faith walk? You are going to call a gift fake? Are you sure you want to do this? What does what I believe concern you at all? If I am deceived, does that affect you? What do you use as a measurement to qualify real tongues from fake? I am not upset, I just wonder what your agenda is all about.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you are going to decide my faith walk? You are going to call a gift fake? Are you sure you want to do this? What does what I believe concern you at all? If I am deceived, does that affect you? What do you use as a measurement to qualify real tongues from fake? I am not upset, I just wonder what your agenda is all about.

You eidently have no idea what I have been discussing or understanding of what I am trying to say

Once again, If you can not open yourself up and stop Assuming things. There is no need to even bother continuing, You will never understand and we will continue this nonsensical unfruitful conversation.

 

[KelbyofGod]

From post # 161:

Saved is a state of being, It is not a church word, Paul says we have been saved numerous times..

Again, You worry me about your lax interpretation of words and terms, as if they are just words, and not basic bible truths about God and his people.

EG,

I will assert that I was not being lax in my use of the word "saved".... and I was not flippant in my choice of examples. My actual concern was that I would NOT find wording that was distasteful enough to bring your full attention to the very real dangers of the misuse (or worse yet) misapplication of the word "saved".

I suggested that a person (or church) who feels obligated to 'label' people using the word 'saved' might feel conflicted if they tried to do it in Acts 8:12-17. To "label" someone is to apply that word to them. Then I asked you to tell me at which verse the word "saved" should be applied (in your belief system). You said you wouldn't feel conflicted...but you also didn't tell me at which verse the word "saved" is to be correctly applied.

Is it at verse 12, when they believe and get baptized? Or is it at verse 17 when they actually receive the Holy Ghost? Or at some other verse?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[eternally-gratefull]

From post # 161:

EG,

I will assert that I was not being lax in my use of the word "saved".... and I was not flippant in my choice of examples. My actual concern was that I would NOT find wording that was distasteful enough to bring your full attention to the very real dangers of the misuse (or worse yet) misapplication of the word "saved".

I suggested that a person (or church) who feels obligated to 'label' people using the word 'saved' might feel conflicted if they tried to do it in Acts 8:12-17. To "label" someone is to apply that word to them. Then I asked you to tell me at which verse the word "saved" should be applied (in your belief system). You said you wouldn't feel conflicted...but you also didn't tell me at which verse the word "saved" is to be correctly applied.

Is it at verse 12, when they believe and get baptized? Or is it at verse 17 when they actually receive the Holy Ghost? Or at some other verse?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I am sorry bro

1. You never actually responded to my comments about romans 6 and other stuff
2. Your trying to say I have not explained what saved means, When I have explained over and over what saved means (it means we have been saved from the condemnation due to sin) and has since th ebegining of time been applied to all people upon the moment of faith (abraham believed and it was accounted to him at righteousness) not because of any work
3. Paul says in eph, the moment we hear the word of truth, and actually believe in that truth, we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise (this is when we get the HS)

I already said, in the beginning, God did what he always does. He uses signs to prove to the world that this new way is going to happen. Then once established, these initial onset of signs generally fade away, and we go by faith (the jews went 400 years without any prophet or any sign before John the Baptist arrived on scene)

In all cases that I see

In acts 2. They were saved the moment they repented and had faith, and through this they received the GIFT of the holy spirit. And BECAUSE they had remission of sin, they were baptized in water.

In Acts 10. Same story

In all of them (even the ones who were baptised the baptism of John were saved immediately on their confession of faith in Christ) and were baptized after

Again, You worry me when you claimed remission of sin was the result of being water baptized. And that our baptism into the death and burial of Christ where our sins was washed away was performed by a sinner immersing us in water. And nto God immersing us into Christ.

This is very worrisome, and more important than even the tongues issue, which has no salvation significants

 

[Bingo]

"What is the difference between belief and faith?
Belief is a firmly held opinion or a strong confidence whereas faith is a strong religious belief. Belief is based on probability or chance whereas faith is not based on probability at all. Belief depends on proof whereas Faith is not. Belief is centered in faith whereas Faith is centered in trust.
True spirituality is the fruit that the Holy Spirit produces in a person’s life: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Spirituality is all about becoming more like God, who is spirit and having our character conformed to His image."
"Praise God'