Sinning against the holy spirit

[throughfaith]

If you had answered my question about the babies who died, you could not have made this assumption about it being a sin not to believe in Jesus.

Your second assumption is answered in my posting # 57.

a baby cannot repent. ( He cannot step back from his current set of propositions to evaluate the claims of the gospel. He cannot understand the law either. Thus babies are not accountable.

 

[throughfaith]

a baby cannot repent. ( He cannot step back from his current set of propositions to evaluate the claims of the gospel. He cannot understand the law either. Thus babies are not accountable.

If you had answered my question about the babies who died, you could not have made this assumption about it being a sin not to believe in Jesus.

Your second assumption is answered in my posting # 57.

I said simply that the Holy Spirit reproves the world of ' sin ' ( singular) because they believe not in me . Its a sin that Jesus died for . But Belief is the only access to the grace . Rom 5.2 . Believing is the only access to grace . Not believing therefore means no access . Works are not the factor .

 

[Guojing]

[Apologies if this is mentioned in another post - I couldn't find it, if it is]

Sinning against the holy spirit is mentioned in the Synoptic gospels

"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."
Luke 12:10 KJ

"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"
Mark 3:29 KJ

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
Matthew 12:31-32 KJ

Its an unforgiveable sin; over the years I've heard very different interpretations of this. Given the high stakes as its on unforgiveable sin I'm surprised I haven't heard more reference to these passages in sermons.

I'm curious what do you believe is sinning against the holy spirit? and could you give an example?

thank you

I see it from another perspective that is only known on retrospect.

Jesus was warning Israel that, if they may reject the Son now, God cam still forgive them because Jesus would appeal for Israel when he is on the cross, do you remember his prayer asking his Father to forgive them for they know not what they do?

God answered Jesus prayer and sent the Holy Spirit to them, at Pentecost in Acts 2, as the final member of the Trinity to appeal to Israel to repent and believe in Jesus as their promised Son of God (Acts 2:36).

Israel rejected God the Father in the OT by ignoring or stoning their prophets, the last being John the Baptist (Luke 16:16, Acts 7:52).
Israel rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels by putting him on the cross (Acts 2:36)

But finally Israel rejected God the Holy Spirit in Acts by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:55).

With the entire Trinity being rejected by the Jews, the last one to me is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin under the Law of Moses, God finally unveiled his hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews, a plan he had kept hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Seen from this perspective, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is a unique sin that could only be committed by the nation Israel during the time period of Acts.

 

[throughfaith]

Brother, go to a Bible dictionary and look up the word "glorify". It comes from the root word "doxa", which means "made apparent". That is, when God is glorified it is "made apparent" Who He is. When Christ was glorified by resurrection (Jn.7:39) it was "made apparent" that He had put all sins away. Now, in 1st Corinthians 15:22 it says that, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." That ALL men who had their origin IN Adam will die, is confirmed by Romans 5:12. Then, reading further in 1st Corinthians 15, the question is posed in verse 35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Paul answers this question by say that they are raised up ACCORDING TO WHAT WAS PLANTED IN DEATH. And Paul, speaking now of ALL men, says that there are TWO TYPES - "Celestial" (from heaven) and "Terrestrial" (from the earth).

The Christian is born "from above" (Jn.3:3-5), is of the "heavenly calling", (Heb.3:1), is a citizen of heaven (Phil.3:20), and receives a heavenly body in resurrection (2nd Cor.5:1-5). And this heavenly status is "MADE APPARENT". His "glory" in resurrection is celestial! The non-believer is also resurrected, but he is from the womb, from the woman who is but dust, from human seed and is earthy. This is also "MADE APPARENT". The Terrestrial ALSO HAS HIS "GLORY"! Verses 40 gives BOTH GLORY!

40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

And among Christians, there will be differing glories because it will be MADE APPARENT in resurrection what type of life the Christian LED!

41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

But the point I want to make is that even the most evil sinner will be GLORIFIED. His wanton life will be MADE APPARENT! And why did I go to all this trouble to explain "glory"? Why, just to show you that you should be very careful when you make reverse arguments to establish a DOCTRINE. Much better if you stick to DIRECT SENTENCES and/or STATEMENTS! That's why I ask for scriptures in our discussion. Your whole argument was based on a false perception of "glory". And I once believed it too.

So Jesus was raised with a ' glorified ' body?

 

[throughfaith]

Brother, go to a Bible dictionary and look up the word "glorify". It comes from the root word "doxa", which means "made apparent". That is, when God is glorified it is "made apparent" Who He is. When Christ was glorified by resurrection (Jn.7:39) it was "made apparent" that He had put all sins away. Now, in 1st Corinthians 15:22 it says that, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." That ALL men who had their origin IN Adam will die, is confirmed by Romans 5:12. Then, reading further in 1st Corinthians 15, the question is posed in verse 35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Paul answers this question by say that they are raised up ACCORDING TO WHAT WAS PLANTED IN DEATH. And Paul, speaking now of ALL men, says that there are TWO TYPES - "Celestial" (from heaven) and "Terrestrial" (from the earth).

The Christian is born "from above" (Jn.3:3-5), is of the "heavenly calling", (Heb.3:1), is a citizen of heaven (Phil.3:20), and receives a heavenly body in resurrection (2nd Cor.5:1-5). And this heavenly status is "MADE APPARENT". His "glory" in resurrection is celestial! The non-believer is also resurrected, but he is from the womb, from the woman who is but dust, from human seed and is earthy. This is also "MADE APPARENT". The Terrestrial ALSO HAS HIS "GLORY"! Verses 40 gives BOTH GLORY!

40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

And among Christians, there will be differing glories because it will be MADE APPARENT in resurrection what type of life the Christian LED!

41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

But the point I want to make is that even the most evil sinner will be GLORIFIED. His wanton life will be MADE APPARENT! And why did I go to all this trouble to explain "glory"? Why, just to show you that you should be very careful when you make reverse arguments to establish a DOCTRINE. Much better if you stick to DIRECT SENTENCES and/or STATEMENTS! That's why I ask for scriptures in our discussion. Your whole argument was based on a false perception of "glory". And I once believed it too.

I've read this twice now and I'm struggling to see your point . I'm not sure i disagree. The only question would be about different levels of glory. I know in Mormonism they use this verse " 41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."
To say there is different levels of ' Achieving ' different levels in heaven through obedience and following the laws ect .I'm not sure how this ties to the discussion were having .

 

[throughfaith]

Brother, go to a Bible dictionary and look up the word "glorify". It comes from the root word "doxa", which means "made apparent". That is, when God is glorified it is "made apparent" Who He is. When Christ was glorified by resurrection (Jn.7:39) it was "made apparent" that He had put all sins away. Now, in 1st Corinthians 15:22 it says that, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." That ALL men who had their origin IN Adam will die, is confirmed by Romans 5:12. Then, reading further in 1st Corinthians 15, the question is posed in verse 35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Paul answers this question by say that they are raised up ACCORDING TO WHAT WAS PLANTED IN DEATH. And Paul, speaking now of ALL men, says that there are TWO TYPES - "Celestial" (from heaven) and "Terrestrial" (from the earth).

The Christian is born "from above" (Jn.3:3-5), is of the "heavenly calling", (Heb.3:1), is a citizen of heaven (Phil.3:20), and receives a heavenly body in resurrection (2nd Cor.5:1-5). And this heavenly status is "MADE APPARENT". His "glory" in resurrection is celestial! The non-believer is also resurrected, but he is from the womb, from the woman who is but dust, from human seed and is earthy. This is also "MADE APPARENT". The Terrestrial ALSO HAS HIS "GLORY"! Verses 40 gives BOTH GLORY!

40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

And among Christians, there will be differing glories because it will be MADE APPARENT in resurrection what type of life the Christian LED!

41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

But the point I want to make is that even the most evil sinner will be GLORIFIED. His wanton life will be MADE APPARENT! And why did I go to all this trouble to explain "glory"? Why, just to show you that you should be very careful when you make reverse arguments to establish a DOCTRINE. Much better if you stick to DIRECT SENTENCES and/or STATEMENTS! That's why I ask for scriptures in our discussion. Your whole argument was based on a false perception of "glory". And I once believed it too.

The Mormons try to use verse 41 as a prooftext for different hierarchies and degrees of resurrection in glory, where you have some Christians reigning over others and some are more holy than others in eternity. Are you saying something similar ? verse 42 simply said “So also.” So it is an illustration.

 

[throughfaith]

If you had answered my question about the babies who died, you could not have made this assumption about it being a sin not to believe in Jesus.

Your second assumption is answered in my posting # 57.

The resurrection body is a new body. It is a body like the Lord Jesus Christ had at His resurrection (Phil. 3:21).

 

[throughfaith]

Do I take it that we agree that a man or woman does not go to the Lake of Fire because of lack of faith in the truth? Your answer is quite important, because doctrinally it sends every fetus, infant and child who died to eternal torment.

But to your questions.

• All judgments by God, or Jesus Christ are based on WORKS. That they are written in books is not for God's memory. It is for ours.
• A person cannot avoid "hell" by their works. A person cannot avoid anything. It is up to the sovereign, All-mighty, All-knowing and All-seeing God whether a man or woman avoids "hell". That is what a Judge is for.

I know you won't do it, but once you should sit down with a concordance and find every instance of Gehenna, perdition, destruction, Lake of Fire and/or Second Death, and read it. You will find that in every case the man who lands there, does so because of what he DID. Then, if you do this, something else will suddenly dawn on you. That is, a Christian can be affected by the Second Death. In Revelation 2:11, our Lord is talking to the Church at Smyrna. The word "Church" in the Bible leaves no doubt who is meant. "Ekklesia", the Greek word, means; "the gathering of the called out ones". Within this word is no space for the common Christian idea it is a building, club or organization along worldly pattern. If an unbeliever is present at a "gathering of believers", the Bible does not count him as part of the Church. There are NO false believers in scripture. There are only believers and unbelievers.

So when our Lord addresses the CHURCH at Smyrna, ONLY BELIEVERS ARE MEANT. And Revelation 2:11 implies that a BELIEVER can be "hurt of the Second Death". Now, unless you are (i) precise with God's Words, and (ii) are clear why a man goes to the Second Death, you have a big problem. Those who BELIEVED, and were members of a Church, CAN STILL BE TOUCHED BY THE SECOND DEATH (which is used interchangeably with the Lake of Fire). It is no good answering that they were false believers because, as I said, that does not exist in the Bible. One is either a Believer, or an Unbeliever. It is no good saying that their BELIEF was poor or non-existent because they had endured "tribulation and poverty" for it (v.9).

So, I think you will agree that BELIEVING the truth will not save you from the effects of the Second Death. But then ... how shall we answer this that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are SAVED by FAITH? The Smyrnians BELIEVED but ran the danger of being hurt of the Second Death. How so?

A person goes into the lake of fire because they refuse to believe the truth so as to be saved. Babies ect do not fall into this category.

 

[Corban]

As believers we have the message of reconciliation. The information that God has told us to tell others how they can recieve Jesus through faith. That they will avoid 'the bad place 'by being in christ .

Is that your gospel? And why no scriptures again?

 

[Corban]

The resurrection body is a new body. It is a body like the Lord Jesus Christ had at His resurrection (Phil. 3:21).

Your reply is noted.

 

[Corban]

A person goes into the lake of fire because they refuse to believe the truth so as to be saved. Babies ect do not fall into this category.

Thank you for your opinion. I've read and noted it.

 

[Corban]

a baby cannot repent. ( He cannot step back from his current set of propositions to evaluate the claims of the gospel. He cannot understand the law either. Thus babies are not accountable.

One day you must let us in on your secret - why you join a Bible-Discission Forum, but never quote the Bible.

 

[Corban]

The Mormons try to use verse 41 as a prooftext for different hierarchies and degrees of resurrection in glory, where you have some Christians reigning over others and some are more holy than others in eternity. Are you saying something similar ? verse 42 simply said “So also.” So it is an illustration.

I'll wait for you to give a sound exegesis of the same verses and then respond. By the way, Mormons use the internet, so you must also be a Mormon. Oh ... I forgot about bank robbers. How sad that we can't discuss the Bible.

 

[throughfaith]

One day you must let us in on your secret - why you join a Bible-Discission Forum, but never quote the Bible.

Never ?? Given the amount of posts , reply s and comments i give on here , if you look back the majority of the time I'm quoting scriptures . So slight exaggeration from you there .

 

[throughfaith]

I'll wait for you to give a sound exegesis of the same verses and then respond. By the way, Mormons use the internet, so you must also be a Mormon. Oh ... I forgot about bank robbers. How sad that we can't discuss the Bible.

Any one that understands anything about Mormonism should know that the verse in question is famously used the same way for obvious reasons . Reasons that from the text alone we should not necessarily arrive at . It fits the Mormon context.
Just as John 6 is a famous proof text in reformed theology.

 

[throughfaith]

I'll wait for you to give a sound exegesis of the same verses and then respond. By the way, Mormons use the internet, so you must also be a Mormon. Oh ... I forgot about bank robbers. How sad that we can't discuss the Bible.

“So also is the resurrection of the dead” (vs. 42). “It is sown in corruption.” When you die, you go in the ground and rot. “It is raised in incorruption.” The first thing about the resurrection body is it is incorruptible. It can’t rot. The body you get in the resurrecresurrection can never decay and decompose again.
The question asked by the 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

This is all that is being explained. Outside of Mormonsim genuinely I've not heard the explanation you gave,before? So I wasn't being derogatory. I never came across this view apart from mormonism so that's why i asked that way .

 

[CS1]

Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

KEEP IN MIND: after Jesus cast devils from a man the pharisees attributed what Jesus done to the devil

Now we have to as ourselves a few questions:

Is God the Holy Ghost greater than God the Father? NO!

Is God the Holy Ghost greater than Jesus/God the Son? NO!

THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT GREATER BUT HE WAS....... LATER!!!!

IMO: Jesus was looking ahead and thinking about the coming of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is God reaching as far as He will to save us. If men reject the conviction given by the Holy Ghost to repent God will do nothing else to save them.

IMO: Jesus knew they were going to crucify him and said if you treat the Holy Ghost the way your treating me, there will be no hope for you.......... so make sure you dont crucify the Holy Ghost and stay sensitive to Him

I'm sorry I see that as allegorizing of the word of God.

 

[Corban]

Any one that understands anything about Mormonism should know that the verse in question is famously used the same way for obvious reasons . Reasons that from the text alone we should not necessarily arrive at . It fits the Mormon context.
Just as John 6 is a famous proof text in reformed theology.

I wouldn't know. Although I studied the Mormons' origin, I've never delved into their theology.

 

[AlmondJoy]

I'm sorry I see that as allegorizing of the word of God.

that's why i said at least twice "in my opinion"

what did you find wrong with my opinion?

 

[Corban]

“So also is the resurrection of the dead” (vs. 42). “It is sown in corruption.” When you die, you go in the ground and rot. “It is raised in incorruption.” The first thing about the resurrection body is it is incorruptible. It can’t rot. The body you get in the resurrecresurrection can never decay and decompose again.
The question asked by the 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

This is all that is being explained. Outside of Mormonsim genuinely I've not heard the explanation you gave,before? So I wasn't being derogatory. I never came across this view apart from mormonism so that's why i asked that way .

No my brother. That is not the meaning. It says; "Sown IN corruption". The corruption is already there when it is sown. You can see this when it comes to the "LIVING" in verse 50-54. There the saints are ALIVE but still in corruption. They need a change. "Corruption must put on incorruption" in a living man.