Show your faith through your works

[preacher4truth]

Gee oh gosh, if you were keeping track of the thread better than this almost bland old man perhaps you would see, I did reread and respond with a conditional apology. Now stop trying to start a mobbing and get back into the thread.

Oh, please! You would have said nothing unless I showed you your error.

Stop crying, defending and propagating yourself.

Take your own medicine without whining about how it tastes.

 

[preacher4truth]

Many posters on this forum make fun of works for the Lord. Almost to a man they respond by calling mention of work for the Lord works religion. They think of work as only to be done for salvation. If it was true that work was only to be done for salvation as they think, then work would be useless for it is our faith that results in salvation.

They make me think of a naughty child telling parents they won't behave unless they are given what they want.

James 2: 17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 [a]Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.

You've offered many posts on this forum that show you believe in works based salvation. Are you now recanting?

 

[JaumeJ]

Oh, please! You would have said nothing unless I showed you your error.

Stop crying, defending and propagating yourself.

Take your own medicine without whining about how it tastes.

Just two days ago someone posted a very uinuusal argument in a thread, and I sent a pm explaining how I understood it differently, and all went fine from there.

All went wel because no one was telling anyone to "take his own medicine." This is the first time I have encountered someone with such authority as to do this. Are you a doctor of the spirit? Sorry this argument is of no profit. May God bless you in your great and real humility.

 

[Grace911]

Many posters on this forum make fun of works for the Lord. Almost to a man they respond by calling mention of work for the Lord works religion. They think of work as only to be done for salvation. If it was true that work was only to be done for salvation as they think, then work would be useless for it is our faith that results in salvation.

They make me think of a naughty child telling parents they won't behave unless they are given what they want.

James 2: 17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 [a]Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.

These I consider works:
Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Also, teaching in your church, driving the church bus, greeting at the doors, working in the nursery, cleaning the rooms and worship areas, delivering meals, being a deacon and all the work that goes with that, etc. etc. We do works for the Lord. Is that works religion? Not exactly is it?

 

[Deade]

These I consider works:
Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Also, teaching in your church, driving the church bus, greeting at the doors, working in the nursery, cleaning the rooms and worship areas, delivering meals, being a deacon and all the work that goes with that, etc. etc. We do works for the Lord. Is that works religion? Not exactly is it?

Amen Grace, God does not need the works of our flesh to serve Him. When we are not given specific instructions; some things are always alright with the Lord. Giving to the poor and needy always pleases Him. It also pleases God to praise Him. He will take the sacrifice of praise anytime.

 

[Chester]

The person that wakes up in the morning thinking, "What can I do for God today?"
is off on the wrong foot. God doesn't want you to make up things to do "for the Lord".
He wants you to follow his lead. Wait for a green light. Spiritually speaking.

I guess Paul should have read your post before he spoke to the Lord:
“And Saul, trembling and astonished, said, Lord! what wilt Thou have me to do?” Acts 9: 6.

I do agree with the sentiment that an overarching focus on "do, do, do" rather than to "be" is detrimental to a vital Christian life. But to say we should not ask "What can I do for God today?" ?????

 

[Blik]

We are saved "for" good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Authentic good works produced out of faith which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them are not to be made fun of. The problem is when people turn saved "for" good works into saved "by" good works. I can give three examples of people who claimed they don't believe we are saved by works, then afterwards contradict themselves by making these statements below:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." - This equates to salvation by "these" works and just not "those" works.

"We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc.." - This equates to salvation through faith "infused" with works.

"There is another Gospel out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. The counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ." - This equates to salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

I have experience, over and over, being put down for posting a work that I believe in. I am told om their post that I believe in works for salvation if I mention a work.

As an example I believe the scripture in Genesis that God created the seventh day for our Sabbath. Often I am told that anyone who quotes that scripture is wrong and one of the basis for that determination is that telling of that Scripture means that I believe in works instead of grace. They connect Sabbath and works in their minds, seeming to feel that no work such as that should be mentioned. Any Law of Moses that is listed on a post is subject to scathing rebuttal.

 

[Blik]

Let's face it, if you are promoting works, you are promoting a works religion.
Saying, "for the Lord" does not nullify that fact..

That statement is exactly the point of this post.

 

[Lillywolf]

Many posters on this forum make fun of works for the Lord. Almost to a man they respond by calling mention of work for the Lord works religion. They think of work as only to be done for salvation. If it was true that work was only to be done for salvation as they think, then work would be useless for it is our faith that results in salvation.

They make me think of a naughty child telling parents they won't behave unless they are given what they want.

James 2: 17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 [a]Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.

I think what is to blame is bad teachers in the pulpit or elsewhere, and quite frankly, being too lazy to actually study the scriptures so as to learn what is meant to be understood by the creator of all things. Including those minds that invented the printing press so that we are without excuse.
The teaching that we have to work to stay saved is popular on the net. I'm a member of a Bible forum where someone insists works save. And if the Christian doesn't keep working they'll lose their salvation just as readily as , he insists, they can work to lose their salvation. Making one mistake and they're back to being a damned sinner.

If that person is truly a Christian I don't know. If they're not they're a dedicated troll because they find their way to other study forums using the same argument. This type thing is what confuses people who discuss scripture in a forum atmosphere.
Some take the word of those they credit with being more learned. Some just believe it because why would someone misrepresent the truth of God in Christ?

Sadly, it doesn't appear such persons ever ask why they'd have to labor to remain in Christ when Christ did all the work on the cross. And God has said his calling and gift (of grace) is irrevocable. Romans 11. In other words, God doesn't take it back.

Nor can we lose it. Because Jesus said, no one , meaning not anyone at all, can take the redeemed in him from his hand. John 10.
People backslide, they leave the faith for whatever reason. But that's human fault not God's conceding to their demand to leave the faith.
God chose us in him before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1.
Do we think God didn't know who would veer off? Have doubts and choose the world for a time? God destined us to be his daughters and sons to be blessed in Christ. He chose us that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us to be his sons and daughters for his purpose. By his will. He freely bestowed his grace and calling. A calling we're told is meant for the individual who is in Christ. Because Jesus told us, no one comes to him but his Father call them. John 6 and verse 44.

Not even the OT patriarchs thought they could work so as to enter Heaven. They didn't think they could keep , work to keep, the Mitzvah, the 613 laws of God, and see Heaven. Their faith saved their souls to Heaven.

Jesus worked to save our souls and put the sins of the world on the cross and under his blood for all time. Those who come to him, repent, are redeemed, are eternally saved. They're saints, new creations. Not sinners, because sinners are those who transgress God's will, law, and are damned unrepentant.

If we could work to be saved Jesus would have not suffered for us.

It is a very simple truth many muck up so as to make it convoluted. WORKS DO NOT SAVE! EVER! Doing good work in the service of God is a demonstration of our salvation in Christ! Because when we were dead in our sins we didn't serve God's purposes. We served that of the flesh.

Works are proof of salvation. NOT the means of retaining salvation.
Any church that teaches works are necessary to stay saved are literally damned liars.

Trust the Bible! Not damned liars.

 

[Lillywolf]

I have experience, over and over, being put down for posting a work that I believe in. I am told om their post that I believe in works for salvation if I mention a work.

Hey, in some forums if you mention the ten commandments are moral teachings, you'll be condemned as a Judaizer and written off as someone not really Christian.

Maybe this will help you. Don't worry about what people think of your journey in Christ! You're not responsible for what they think. God knows you by name because he called you to his son after he had his son die on the cross for you.
Anyone who condemns your walk when you are in scripture and know that works are a sign of salvation not a means to achieve or retain it, is unaware. They need prayer, not the power to make you feel bad for how you worship and because they're ignorant.

As an example I believe the scripture in Genesis that God created the seventh day for our Sabbath. Often I am told that anyone who quotes that scripture is wrong and one of the basis for that determination is that telling of that Scripture means that I believe in works instead of grace. They connect Sabbath and works in their minds, seeming to feel that no work such as that should be mentioned. Any Law of Moses that is listed on a post is subject to scathing rebuttal.

Jesus tells us the Sabbath was made for us, we were not made for the Sabbath. The Apostles honored the Sabbath as Jesus exampled himself and after Jesus had returned to the Father.
If you wish to recognize the Sabbath day and keep it holy and you choose to do the work of God on that day set aside for you to rest in him and occupy your thoughts with him separate from the day to day travails of the world, do it!
The one's that call you names for that will answer to God.
GOD made the Sabbath for man! Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath. No Christian can ever condemn any Christian for taking their rest on that day God made for them.

There are enough mouthy idiots on the net that get full satisfaction in insulting Christians. They can't.
They insult themselves and their parents parenting for even trying to do so. We are in Christ! Temples that carry God's holy spirit.
Slings and arrows of idiots mean nothing unless we give them that power to make us feel bad for serving God.
That's their point.

Don't let them make it.

 

[Lillywolf]

That statement is exactly the point of this post.

That one who made the statement is not worthy of making you feel bad because they're unaware.
Let them be an example to those in Christ. Because believe it or not? There are people that hate the fact a Christian know Christ is alive in themselves. Temple of the Holy.
That's why those adversaries try to make such as us feel as bad as they do because they're not.
Who, when they have the peace of Christ and know what that is in their soul, works to attack Christians for living their faith according to God's instruction?

 

[garee]

I have experience, over and over, being put down for posting a work that I believe in. I am told om their post that I believe in works for salvation if I mention a work.

As an example I believe the scripture in Genesis that God created the seventh day for our Sabbath. Often I am told that anyone who quotes that scripture is wrong and one of the basis for that determination is that telling of that Scripture means that I believe in works instead of grace. They connect Sabbath and works in their minds, seeming to feel that no work such as that should be mentioned. Any Law of Moses that is listed on a post is subject to scathing rebuttal.

If a person does not divide the literal seen from the spiritual not seen they can have a different conclusion .

A division between moral laws needed to preserve humanity and ceremonial laws are used in ceremonies as shadows to reveal the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand. Ceremonies are ceremonies . It is the purpose of ceremonial laws as shadow used to preach Christ coming.

There is a ceremonial Sabbath(1) as well as the Sabaath of substance(2). The later daily as a actual rest that comes from not hardening ones heart. (Hebrew 4)

The counterfeiter the devil would have men believe one kind of Sabbath in order to take away the meaning of the first..

How would you keep a shadow of the law of a law. In a fictional way Peter Pan tried?

Colossians 2:16-18 King James Version (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

 

[Lillywolf]

Let’s first take a look at the apostle Paul's words in Colossians 2:14–17: “Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. … So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”
When some read about the sabbath days that were shadows and that passed away at the cross, they think that Paul was referring to the weekly Sabbath, the fourth of the Ten Commandments. Is this accurate? It’s important to get this right, because our interpretation of the apostle’s actual meaning can lead us into deeper truth or into deeper error.

Two Sabbaths


First, there is nothing in the Ten Commandment law about food, drink, festivals, new moons, or sabbath days (plural). All these were actually separate laws that God gave for the physical and spiritual health of His Old Testament people; these were called ceremonial laws.

Second, Paul wrote plainly that he was speaking of “sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come,” and not of the weekly Sabbath, which is a memorial of something that happened in the past, at the creation. The contrast between a shadow and a memorial is quite clear. Indeed, the fourth commandment does not tell us to keep the seventh day as a type of something to come. It says: “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. ... For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it” (Exodus 20:8, 11).....
[Read More @ Sabbath Truth]

 

[Sketch]

I guess Paul should have read your post before he spoke to the Lord:
“And Saul, trembling and astonished, said, Lord! what wilt Thou have me to do?” Acts 9: 6.

I do agree with the sentiment that an overarching focus on "do, do, do" rather than to "be" is detrimental to a vital Christian life. But to say we should not ask "What can I do for God today?" ?????

Right.
We are human beings, not human doings.

 

[Blik]

I think what is to blame is bad teachers in the pulpit or elsewhere, and quite frankly, being too lazy to actually study the scriptures so as to learn what is meant to be understood by the creator of all things. Including those minds that invented the printing press so that we are without excuse.
The teaching that we have to work to stay saved is popular on the net. I'm a member of a Bible forum where someone insists works save. And if the Christian doesn't keep working they'll lose their salvation just as readily as , he insists, they can work to lose their salvation. Making one mistake and they're back to being a damned sinner.

If that person is truly a Christian I don't know. If they're not they're a dedicated troll because they find their way to other study forums using the same argument. This type thing is what confuses people who discuss scripture in a forum atmosphere.
Some take the word of those they credit with being more learned. Some just believe it because why would someone misrepresent the truth of God in Christ?

Sadly, it doesn't appear such persons ever ask why they'd have to labor to remain in Christ when Christ did all the work on the cross. And God has said his calling and gift (of grace) is irrevocable. Romans 11. In other words, God doesn't take it back.

Nor can we lose it. Because Jesus said, no one , meaning not anyone at all, can take the redeemed in him from his hand. John 10.
People backslide, they leave the faith for whatever reason. But that's human fault not God's conceding to their demand to leave the faith.
God chose us in him before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1.
Do we think God didn't know who would veer off? Have doubts and choose the world for a time? God destined us to be his daughters and sons to be blessed in Christ. He chose us that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us to be his sons and daughters for his purpose. By his will. He freely bestowed his grace and calling. A calling we're told is meant for the individual who is in Christ. Because Jesus told us, no one comes to him but his Father call them. John 6 and verse 44.

Not even the OT patriarchs thought they could work so as to enter Heaven. They didn't think they could keep , work to keep, the Mitzvah, the 613 laws of God, and see Heaven. Their faith saved their souls to Heaven.

Jesus worked to save our souls and put the sins of the world on the cross and under his blood for all time. Those who come to him, repent, are redeemed, are eternally saved. They're saints, new creations. Not sinners, because sinners are those who transgress God's will, law, and are damned unrepentant.

If we could work to be saved Jesus would have not suffered for us.

It is a very simple truth many muck up so as to make it convoluted. WORKS DO NOT SAVE! EVER! Doing good work in the service of God is a demonstration of our salvation in Christ! Because when we were dead in our sins we didn't serve God's purposes. We served that of the flesh.

Works are proof of salvation. NOT the means of retaining salvation.
Any church that teaches works are necessary to stay saved are literally damned liars.

Trust the Bible! Not damned liars.

I think you need your understanding of what is said repaired. You say the net is full of teaching against what scripture tells us, but you aren't telling us what site does that. I am accused of doing this and there has never been one single time I did. The closest I came to it was when I quoted …1 Corinthians 6: 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts. Was I lambasted for quoting that scripture! That, I was told, was preaching a works religion.

In my experience the people declaring they are against works religion are the ones who insist we ignore what scripture tells us. Christians who want to walk in the paths God tells of say we can never achieve enough obedience to match the grace of our God. They read all scripture and know of grace that was explained from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Lillywolf]

I think you need your understanding of what is said repaired.

What?

You say the net is full of teaching against what scripture tells us, but you aren't telling us what site does that.

Besides this one? The sites I'm member of are easy to be found if someone searches for "works saves threads. "

I am accused of doing this and there has never been one single time I did. The closest I came to it was when I quoted …1 Corinthians 6: 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts. Was I lambasted for quoting that scripture! That, I was told, was preaching a works religion.

Seems as if you encountered what I harshly described as, idiots.

I don't resort to negative remarks of that type here but in this thread after a time it just seems to fit. The argumentative on this topic of salvation have to ignore Paul's writings in order to continue to insist we are required to work, labor to please the Lord, so as to retain our salvation and find ourselves approved for eternal life once we arrive at the judgment and God reviews our works to see if they were enough.
When we were unable to work out our own salvation as sinners and without accepting Christ, how can it be argued using NT scripture that we have to work to retain our salvation after Christ died to fulfill the promise of eternal salvation/life.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

In my experience the people declaring they are against works religion are the ones who insist we ignore what scripture tells us. Christians who want to walk in the paths God tells of say we can never achieve enough obedience to match the grace of our God. They read all scripture and know of grace that was explained from Genesis to Revelation.

Proponents of works based salvation would have to ignore scriptures that prove them wrong wouldn't they.

 

[Blik]

If a person does not divide the literal seen from the spiritual not seen they can have a different conclusion .

A division between moral laws needed to preserve humanity and ceremonial laws are used in ceremonies as shadows to reveal the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand. Ceremonies are ceremonies . It is the purpose of ceremonial laws as shadow used to preach Christ coming.

There is a ceremonial Sabbath(1) as well as the Sabaath of substance(2). The later daily as a actual rest that comes from not hardening ones heart. (Hebrew 4)

The counterfeiter the devil would have men believe one kind of Sabbath in order to take away the meaning of the first..

How would you keep a shadow of the law of a law. In a fictional way Peter Pan tried?

Colossians 2:16-18 King James Version (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

I believe that scripture is told to us on several levels, so historical facts have also a deeper level.

Paul said ceremonies were like a master guiding children to school, and now we have the Holy Spirit as a guide. Dietary laws need to be studied to see where the Holy Spirit is guiding us. Same with all ceremonies, even the sacrificial ceremony explaining what Christ does for us.

The historical fact of the creation of the Sabbath was simply a historical fact that is still a fact today. You can't create something factually and not have it in our world after you created it. There is spiritual meaning, deep meaning, in it but that meaning does not take the day as it was created out of our world.

 

[Blik]

What?

Besides this one? The sites I'm member of are easy to be found if someone searches for "works saves threads. "

Seems as if you encountered what I harshly described as, idiots.

I don't resort to negative remarks of that type here but in this thread after a time it just seems to fit. The argumentative on this topic of salvation have to ignore Paul's writings in order to continue to insist we are required to work, labor to please the Lord, so as to retain our salvation and find ourselves approved for eternal life once we arrive at the judgment and God reviews our works to see if they were enough.
When we were unable to work out our own salvation as sinners and without accepting Christ, how can it be argued using NT scripture that we have to work to retain our salvation after Christ died to fulfill the promise of eternal salvation/life.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,


Proponents of works based salvation would have to ignore scriptures that prove them wrong wouldn't they.

Yes. They would have to provide scripture that proves that God saves based on works. There is no such scripture.

I have never read a person's statement saying that God saves based on works. I have seen many accusations of that, but never seen any copy of anything to prove the accusation.

 

[Lillywolf]

Yes. They would have to provide scripture that proves that God saves based on works. There is no such scripture.

I have never read a person's statement saying that God saves based on works. I have seen many accusations of that, but never seen any copy of anything to prove the accusation.

And you never shall. Know why?
Though I'm sure we've both witnessed many a time when scriptures were shared that were interpolated by the poster so as to convince us those scriptures shared are saying exactly that.

It should be basic reason even without scripture. If works saves why did Jesus die on the cross?

OK, it just came to me a works salvation proponents response. "To show us that you have to work to achieve approval and salvation! Did Jesus work so as to upset the Jewish temple elders that they'd then want him arrested? Jesus worked his way to the cross to show us...."

Oh Lord, I probably just helped the argument. "There's nothing new under the sun!" Till nowwwwww!

 

[Blik]

And you never shall. Know why?
Though I'm sure we've both witnessed many a time when scriptures were shared that were interpolated by the poster so as to convince us those scriptures shared are saying exactly that.

It should be basic reason even without scripture. If works saves why did Jesus die on the cross?

OK, it just came to me a works salvation proponents response. "To show us that you have to work to achieve approval and salvation! Did Jesus work so as to upset the Jewish temple elders that they'd then want him arrested? Jesus worked his way to the cross to show us...."

Oh Lord, I probably just helped the argument. "There's nothing new under the sun!" Till nowwwwww!

But this post isn't questioning scripture. Scripture is very very clear that about how salvation happens to us, and it is very clear about the walk we are to make as saved people. No one questions that.

What is addressed by this post is the accusations made against people who accuse any post about our walk AFTER we are saved as a works religion.