Seeing Antichrist

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#21
This is a totally different topic. Paul is saying that it is heart circumcision that makes a real Jew. But he also told Christians in Galatia that physical circumcision would be of no value to Christians. This has nothing to do with the conversion of Jews during the Tribulation.

We know that Elijah must come before the great and terrible day of the LORD. But he will come during the reign of the Antichrist, and evidently Moses will be with him on earth (Rev 11). After all those are the two prophets who met with Christ at His transfiguration.

For whose sake will Elijah come? For the sake of unconverted Jews: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5,6)
This what I believe.
God not interest in physical race, Jews, or non physical Jews no problem physical Jews is only foreshadow of God people, non physical Jews is God people or spiritual Jews if he follow and trust God.
who is your brother? Your brother is God follower it doesn't matter American or Arabic an as long believe in Jesus, he is your brother.
Who is Daniel brother or fellow Jews, I believe if Daniel still jive now he will consider every Christian as brother and fellow spiritual Jews
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
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#22
Christians will NOT see the Antichrist. Here are the reasons why the Church (the Body of Christ) will be absent when the Antichrist is allowed to take full control:

1. The Holy Spirit is the divine Restrainer of the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition. Therefore He will be "taken out of the way" before the Antichrist takes control: And now ye know what withholdeth* [restrains] that he [the Antichrist] might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He [the Holy Spirit] who now letteth* [restrains] will let, [restrain] until He [the Holy Spirit] be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
You're very much mistaken. First of all, Paul was teaching on the basis of Dan 7, where the Little Horn is viewed as doing harm to the saints. And so, Paul said that Christ, the "Son of Man" in Dan 7, would not come until it is time for him to come and destroy the Little Horn, in order to establish God's Kingdom on the earth.

Referring to the Restrainer as the "Holy Spirit" is clearly your insertion in the Scriptures here, and not what is being said at all! It would be completely contradictory to what Paul had been saying up to that point.

Rather, Paul was saying was that Antichrist was coming *before* Christ will come, and that something is presently preventing him from coming. In other words, the endtimes were being delayed due to a "Restrainer" that Paul refused to identify.

I personally suspect that Paul was referring to the Roman government, which he would not want to identify while under Roman rule. That would get Paul killed.

Rather, Paul assumes the reader is familiar with the passage of Daniel, to which he is referring. And in that passage, the 4th Kingdom is clearly the Roman Empire, which was the 4th after Babylon, Persia, and Greece. And Daniel made it clear that this 4th Kingdom, the Roman Empire, would not come to an end until it had divided into 10 states, led by 7 kings, along with the Little Horn, the Antichrist.

And so, Paul was apparently suggesting that Roman government was presently restraining the rise and reign of Antichrist until it had split into 10 states. And obviously, the Antichrist would then come, consolidate this Kingdom under his rule, until Christ comes to destroy him. Suggesting this "Restrainer" is the Holy Spirit is out of bounds in this passage, and is not even being suggested. The Early Church Fathers apparently felt that this Restrainer was likely the Roman government, allowing for the Gospel of Christ to be passed to it from Israel.

So your argument here has no merit, even though it remains a popular position. But if you will look at the origins of Paul's teaching in Dan 7, you will see that my view is more likely the proper interpretation.

2. The Holy Spirit indwells every saint (child of God). So when He is "taken out of the way" (returns to Heaven) all the saints will also be taken to Heaven at the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture. Thus we have a type of the Church (the church at Philadelphia) being told that they will be absent when the "hour of temptation" or testing comes upon the earth: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)
The "restraint" of Antichrist's coming is what is "taken out of the way." The Church is not said to be taken out of the way!

Rev 3.10 was written about things that were at that time in the "present," with "future things" to follow. The church of Philadelphia was an actual church, and not the endtime church. Your interpretation is terribly flawed here. At best you may use it as a principle of Christian deliverance in certain situations. But nowhere is it said to apply to a Pretrib Rapture of the Church!

3. You will not find the word "church" or "churches" in Revelation 11-13 (the reign of the Antichrist). That is a rather significant omission, since the Church is absent from the earth when the events of the 6th and 7th seal take place. So why is the Church absent? Because this is a time of divine wrath against the unbelieving and the ungodly. Just as Noah and his family were safe in the Ark (a type of Christ) during the Flood, Christians will be safely in Heaven when the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth.
The book of Revelation specifically says we are not to detract from nor add to the contents of the visions. And we are told this revelation is given to the Church. If the Church is absent during the reign of Antichrist, who then is Antichrist persecuting? Do you actually think that when followers of Jesus are mentioned that this excludes the "Church?"

Again, your arguments are weak, ambivalent, and reaching. They do not fall into the category of doctrinal statements, and as such cannot be considered to be biblical theology. This eschatology is less than 200 years old. Where was the Holy Spirit on this subject before John N. Darby was born? Darby made his eschatology up, though otherwise he may have been a good man of God. We all make mistakes.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#23
When you hear the trump and God's call... are you going to argue?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,504
2,711
113
#24
Yes, now you see why I have the two laid out in just so and so a manner? It all adds up because of WHO THE PLAYERS are in each situation.
Where do you think the antichrist will rise from? I personally think he will be european
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
63
Pacific NW USA
#25
When you hear the trump and God's call... are you going to argue?
When the Lord reminds you that you should not add to nor detract from the book of Revelation, what are you going to say? To add a Pretrib Rapture to the book is "adding" to the book. To take away the Church form the time of Antichrist's reign is "taking away" from the book. You have been warned not to do this!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
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#26
To add a Pretrib Rapture to the book is "adding" to the book.
Since the Rapture does not even appear in the book of Revelation, this is a non-issue.
To take away the Church form the time of Antichrist's reign is "taking away" from the book. You have been warned not to do this!
Since the words "church" or "churches" do not appear in Revelation from chapters 11-13 (the reign of the Antichrist), this too is a non-issue.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
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Pacific NW USA
#27
Since the Rapture does not even appear in the book of Revelation, this is a non-issue.
If you don't believe the Coming of Jesus for his saints is not "the Rapture," and is not in the book of Revelation, you have an even greater problem! Why on earth would God give the most important prophetic book in the NT for the Church and not include our hope?

Since the words "church" or "churches" do not appear in Revelation from chapters 11-13 (the reign of the Antichrist), this too is a non-issue.
If the word "church" is not used that does not mean the Church is not referred to through the use of synonyms. For example, let's consider seriously your proposition that a book cannot refer to the Church if the word "church" is not used.

The entire OT then, and all 39 books, cannot refer to the Church, since the word "church" is not used there except perhaps in reference to something other than the NT Church. Or if the book of Revelation itself, in the later part of the book, refers to *people who follow Christ,* then the Church is not being referred to because the word "church" itself is not used. But in fact the word "church" is used in the latter part of the book of Revelation, suggesting that the *entire book* was written for the Church!

Rev 22.16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches."

Do you see how absurd your argument is? That would be like saying when we use pronouns that the nouns they refer to do not exist. Or, it's like saying when synonyms are used, the word that they replace do not exist. This is patently absurd, particularly when we are explicitly told in the book itself that it was written *for the Church!* Playing word games does not fool anybody except those who want to be fooled!

Rev 1.1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia...


You should note that verse 1 does not use the word "church," and instead replaces the term with "his servants." You might thing that "his servants" could refer to someone other than the Church except that John goes on to write "to the 7 churches in Asia." Clearly, "his servants" refer to the Church even though the book does not start out with the word Church and refer to the Church in every place where the Church is intended to be reference.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#28
Why on earth would God give the most important prophetic book in the NT for the Church and not include our hope?
The book of Revelation is primarily to warn unbelievers of the coming judgments . Fourteen out of 22 chapters are all about judgments. So our Blessed Hope is in others parts of the NT.
The entire OT then, and all 39 books, cannot refer to the Church, since the word "church" is not used there except perhaps in reference to something other than the NT Church.
As a matter of fact the Church was a Mystery which was kept hidden from the OT prophets, and only revealed to Paul. Therefore there is no "church" in the OT and even "the church in the wilderness" (Acts 7:38) is incorrect. It should have simply been "the congregation" or "the assembly" in the wilderness (as seen in the modern English translations).
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,041
113
77
#29
Anyone who thinks that the world situation is going to get better and back to business as usual
anytime soon needs a pair of spiritual glasses or a visit to a Psychiatrist or both. Whether we are
to experience the Spirit of Antichrist or the Physical Antichrist or both is not really worth all
the speculation surrounding the subject. What I will repeat is what I have said in other last day
threads and postings Check out the career of Solomon. This man was a spiritual Psycho or to use a kind of Theological expression a type both of Christ and the Antichrist. His career started well and ended up bringing about the destruction of a united Israel. If you use the help of a good detailed concordance you will be able to get a full picture of his whole sad story.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#30
1- The trials and tribulations are not for the Saints.
2- The 144,000 are specially prepared to evangelize during those 7 years.
3- The antichrist comes to unite the world under "his" religion.
4- Thus, Armageddon... because the Jews will ultimately refuse to bow to him.
5- The last 3 1/2 years is Hell on earth.
6- Christ returns to put an end to those who would destroy the earth.
7- Mankind once again communes directly with God for 1000yrs.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#31
Blain is right in a way.
The spirit of anti-christ and the person of anti-christ are 2 different things.
Anti-christ has two meanings.....one means instead of God....the other is against God.
What we are witnessing today I believe is the spirit of anti-christ. That man can fix the many problems that face the world today.
The pandemic, global warming, mid east peace, poverty, lawlessness, economy, all these things it seems are out of control but the powers that be say with this and that we will build back better, we will make America great again.
This is the spirit of anti-christ dividing the nations with fear and hopelessness unless we give power to the powers that be to control the masses.
By thinking that if the right political person is in control everything will return to normal even better.

Jesus not only created all things but he also holds them together. Democracy without God is a failed government.
Any government without God, any leadership without God is doomed to fail.

The spirit of anti-christ has been with us for ages and it has become global. For such a time as this we have been born
Will we make a stand for God's righteousness in the world he created or will we be over come by this strong delusion.
We are the ones that stand in the way of anti-christ. I pray that none of us see his face.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#32
Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure: “Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion.” “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#33
Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
 
J

JAPOV

Guest
#34
Isn't the "spirit of antichrist" just man's sin nature?
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
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63
Pacific NW USA
#35
The book of Revelation is primarily to warn unbelievers of the coming judgments . Fourteen out of 22 chapters are all about judgments. So our Blessed Hope is in others parts of the NT.
Unbelievers do not read the book of Revelation! The book was said by Jesus to be for the Church!

Rev 1.1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

It is just plain Common Sense to understand that *Jesus' servants* are the Church! So your argument has no merit at all.

As a matter of fact the Church was a Mystery which was kept hidden from the OT prophets, and only revealed to Paul.
This is a serious error that is contradicted by the Revelation itself, which indicates God has *revealed* His mysteries to *all Christians* who are willing to hear and obey.

Rev 1.3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Therefore there is no "church" in the OT and even "the church in the wilderness" (Acts 7:38) is incorrect. It should have simply been "the congregation" or "the assembly" in the wilderness (as seen in the modern English translations).

OT mysteries did refer to the Church through symbols that are revealed in the NT era. So looking back we can see that the language of the "saints" did indeed apply to the Church. And that is likely why the word "church" is lacking in the middle part of the book of Revelation--not to show the Church is gone--an event that is never related.

The purpose seems to be to show how OT prophecy, together with its language of "saints," is fulfilled in the Church, particularly as Dan 7 described it. We will be saints enduring in the faith of Jesus, even under the threat of persecution and death. Shame on you for distorting this very clear picture given us both in Dan 7 and in Rev 13.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
63
Pacific NW USA
#36
Anyone who thinks that the world situation is going to get better and back to business as usual
anytime soon needs a pair of spiritual glasses or a visit to a Psychiatrist or both. Whether we are
to experience the Spirit of Antichrist or the Physical Antichrist or both is not really worth all
the speculation surrounding the subject. What I will repeat is what I have said in other last day
threads and postings Check out the career of Solomon. This man was a spiritual Psycho or to use a kind of Theological expression a type both of Christ and the Antichrist. His career started well and ended up bringing about the destruction of a united Israel. If you use the help of a good detailed concordance you will be able to get a full picture of his whole sad story.
I agree things are not getting better. "Kingdom Now" theology seems to think different? I don't like to characterize those who disagree as "idiots," but I agree that if they are Christians witnessing the decline of Western Civilization and think things are going well, they have rose-colored glasses, to put it mildly.

Solomon was an odd sort, one who impressed God with his unselfish request for wisdom--not for himself, but for his people. And yet he also obviously displeased God enough that the nation was divided, leaving the northern tribes subject to pagan or idolatrous influences.

I know the famous "666" is somehow associate with Solomon, but I don't think he deserves too much hate rhetoric. He was subject to pressures that we would not likely fully appreciate.

His marriage with foreigners indicated his desire for world peace, which sadly lacked the very wisdom God gave him. He should've known he can't make peace by marrying pagan princesses and then give them pagan worship in Israel!

So I suppose that was something of an antiChristian move? It's the very thing we've seen in the West, as Christian tolerance has ultimately led to paganism reestablishing itself in former Christian countries.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#37
1- The trials and tribulations are not for the Saints.
2- The 144,000 are specially prepared to evangelize during those 7 years.
3- The antichrist comes to unite the world under "his" religion.
4- Thus, Armageddon... because the Jews will ultimately refuse to bow to him.
5- The last 3 1/2 years is Hell on earth.
6- Christ returns to put an end to those who would destroy the earth.
7- Mankind once again communes directly with God for 1000yrs.
What a verse say on point 1? And what do you mean by trial and tribulation, do you mean great tribulation
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#38
Christians witnessing the decline of Western Civilization and think things are going well, they have rose-colored glasses, to put it mildly.
Matt 24
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
I believe that is what happen every where not only western civilization but every where civilization, in my country politicos steal money
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
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#39
Where do you think the antichrist will rise from?

I think he will likely descend, like from the clouds possibly stepping down in Jerusalem or one of the mounts in that area.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
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#40
Since the Rapture does not even appear in the book of Revelation, this is a non-issue.

Since the words "church" or "churches" do not appear in Revelation from chapters 11-13 (the reign of the Antichrist), this too is a non-issue.
Actually there is another word that means a church and that is candlestick, found in Revelation 11.