Saved by Water

[KelbyofGod]

Then I ask you this. Can you water baptize an unrepentant person and their sins will be remitted?

.

Impressive question. not sure I can answer it thoroughly but John the baptist seemed to face something like that in Matthew 3:5-9 and Luke 3:2-14. Go read them as I type what I THINK is the answer.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[posthuman]

Infant baptism and baptizing unbelievers is not biblical. Obedience to the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin accomplishes nothing unless accompanied by an absolute belief in the entire gospel message. (Acts 2, Mark 16:15-16)

absolutely, i agree -- and concerning faith & water baptism, Acts 10 demonstrates to us which accomplishes peace with God. faith.
that in no way means i would ever tell a believer not to be baptized or speak against it. we are told to be baptized; we must obey.

 

[KelbyofGod]

@HisKid
John the baptist was SENT OF GOD to baptize. That means he truly had the authority to baptize. Someone who tries to baptize but was NOT sent BY GOD, that person is effectively a wolf in sheep's clothing. ANY baptism by that person would NOT have the intended effect of baptism. (if the blind lead the blind, both fall into the ditch).

But my guess about a baptism of a NON-repentive person by a man SENT OF GOD to baptize....My thought is that the baptism would indeed work as it should, producing remission of sins. Then the person would experience something similar to what Jesus warned of in Matthew 12:43-45 KJV:

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. [44] Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. [45] Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."​

I hope that helps.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[SophieT]

@HisKid Does it not show on your device. It shows it on my screen. But I was quoting SophieT (Post#330)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

she has me on ignore. she does this regularly to remind me she has me on ignore

so dramatic

 

[SophieT]

No worries. She IS feisty.

she accused me falsely of saying she was somehow doing the devil's work...something like that

absolute nonsense and nothing even close to that was ever said

drama queen but she's calmed down some since joining. you think she doesn't know who you are quoting?

she likes to say I am on ignore as if anyone cares

 

[KelbyofGod]

she has me on ignore. she does this regularly to remind me she has me on ignore

so dramatic

*sigh* lol. you know... 'drama' probably has a cousin named 'fiesty'.

 

[Kidron]

@HisKid
John the baptist was SENT OF GOD to baptize. That means he truly had the authority to baptize. Someone who tries to baptize but was NOT sent BY GOD, that person is effectively a wolf in sheep's clothing. y

The Apostle Paul who wrote most of the NT, said that "Christ sent me not to water baptize".

Jesus never water baptized anyone.

The dying Thief on the Cross, is in Heaven now, and He was never water baptized.

So, here is the thing......Water can't save you, unless water died on the Cross shedding its blood and dying for your sin.
Did it?
Then, that settles that water cult heresy.

Also, lets say you lead someone to Christ in Israel, and you know of no Messianic Church, and they truly believed and are born again.
If they say....>"can we go down to the Mediterranean sea so that i can be water baptized"...... you say......""Of course.""
You take them down there and you do it according to Matthew 28.

 

[SophieT]

Glad you got a chuckle out of that. Your intention was clear enough. And it wasn't a big deal. But when talking with someone who is CLAIMING me to be in error, it's nice to start off by PROVING an error of theirs. BTW, did you happen to be praying when you thought of the possible mistake?

I'm not claiming you to be in error. if that is how you see it, then you are claiming me to be in error. tennis anyone?

no I wasn't praying. I just have a really good memory. who are you again?

Eventually we will... (Eph. 4:11-13) ...at least those that don't give up along the way.

well yeah there is that.....but take a look see now is what I was obviously referring to

Likewise.

you can almost always know if someone is or is not. those who are not, get defensive about it purty quick and then deny it. I say that having participated in enough threads here and other forums to generally see them all go south and then stupid videos are posted or sometimes the threads start with a stupid video...you know what I mean

Thank-you Jesus. That is awesome.

I just thought it was normal.

You know SOME of the import. But your statement is a bit like claiming you know how big God is. (Not likely to pass closer inspection)

not at all. don't go looking for what is not there. we all have our own relationship with God and that is mine. not stopping anyone from having the same and always encourage others to pursue God....not sure why you seem to think otherwise

I CAN believe it because that mindset is probably part of the reason you received speaking in tongues the way you did.

again, for me it was and still is 'normal'. I don't know how else to say it or describe it. I don't see anything special about myself. I am pretty much up front about things so you calling me feisty is how you perceive me....actually I am not at all feisty in a real life situation and again, as far as the other poster goes...she made up a big story with no basis in truth and declared over and over I said something I never said. finally reported it and then it stopped

"People being honest" isn't a guarantee in the BDF any more than it was when Jesus was talking while the scribes and Pharisees were present. If I have the opportunity towards more prayer on a potentially good-will-ending topic, I usually take it. Fortunately you chose to not be offended at the honest answer. That's actually rare in my experience when that question was worded the way you'd worded it. But that's why I hesitated. (And yes, I tend to over-explain).

nah I'm not offended. and yeah you do over-explain some. I just do not like when people add to your words or twist what you say

You value your willingness to "know God as He is and not as others want to say He is". Do you then advise me to take your word as final authority?

LOL! of course not! funny conclusion....we are all always en route and have not yet reached our destination...to know as we are known

 

[SophieT]

*sigh* lol. you know... 'drama' probably has a cousin named 'fiesty'.

again, what she said was not true. that, is not acceptable.

 

[SophieT]

I believe the bible. It states water baptism is a part of it.

water baptism is a part of how a Christian shows they have decided to follow Jesus

it does not save them

we are not going to meet in the middle....about the best I can say here, is we are both water baptized but only one of us seems to believe we were saved when we accepted Christ....water or not....I was 5 and loved swimming though

 

[KelbyofGod]

again, what she said was not true. that, is not acceptable.

I'm only poking at you. (a friendly gesture). No harm meant. Of a truth, I think it would be awesome to meet you in person (but I'm not asking to do so because that would be an awkward request).

 

[HisKid]

@HisKid
John the baptist was SENT OF GOD to baptize. That means he truly had the authority to baptize. Someone who tries to baptize but was NOT sent BY GOD, that person is effectively a wolf in sheep's clothing. ANY baptism by that person would NOT have the intended effect of baptism. (if the blind lead the blind, both fall into the ditch).

But my guess about a baptism of a NON-repentive person by a man SENT OF GOD to baptize....My thought is that the baptism would indeed work as it should, producing remission of sins. Then the person would experience something similar to what Jesus warned of in Matthew 12:43-45 KJV:

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. [44] Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. [45] Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."​

I hope that helps.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Thank you, Kelby. Yes, it helps me to understand your understanding of Scripture. However, I do not believe the "unclean spirit" in the passage you presented is related to an unrepentant sinner, as we are all sinners and are not all filled with an unclean spirit.

Repentance is clearly necessary to be forgiven. I do appreciate you offering your opinion, however.

Yld2Him,

Kirsten

 

[HisKid]

The Apostle Paul who wrote most of the NT, said that "Christ sent me not to water baptize".

Jesus never water baptized anyone.

The dying Thief on the Cross, is in Heaven now, and He was never water baptized.

So, here is the thing......Water can't save you, unless water died on the Cross shedding its blood and dying for your sin.
Did it?
Then, that settles that water cult heresy.

Also, lets say you lead someone to Christ in Israel, and you know of no Messianic Church, and they truly believed and are born again.
If they say....>"can we go down to the Mediterranean sea so that i can be water baptized"...... you say......""Of course.""
You take them down there and you do it according to Matthew 28.

We clearly know that water cannot save anyone. Water baptism was a representation of what the Lord would do.. baptize us with the Holy Spirit.

It's interesting, however, to witness people trying to justify this position. To even imagine and unrepentant sinner could be forgiven if you dunk him/her in water is beyond the pale. Let's just water baptize the whole world and everyone will be forgiven. Problem solved. Not.

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My point is receiving the Holy Ghost is not always the first thing that happens when a person believes the entire gospel message. To teach this is a mistake.[S/QUOTE]
I didn't teach that. I explained that during the formation of the church there were differences. We see Cornelius and family/friends receive the Holy Spirit when they believed, but in Acts 19 we see 12 disciples receive the Holy Spirit. Don't know the time length between Acts 10 and 19. But by the time Paul wrote Galatians, (49-55 AD approx), it was clear that the Holy Spirit was received when one believed in Christ.

The account in Acts 10 is the only place we see individuals receiving the Holy Ghost immediately after being told of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Why?

This is wrong. Gal 3:2 and 5 prove otherwise.

This truth is actually expressed in Acts 10, verse 47 where Peter makes this statement, "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized in water."

Their water baptism was AFTER they received the Holy Spirit, which is Spirit baptism. He wasn't hesitant about anything. That's mere speculation of his intent.

You point out Galatians 3:2, 5 as evidence that people receive the Holy Spirit after believing the gospel message. And that is absolutely true. Everyone who believes the gospel message will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit but not always at the exact moment they hear it as proven through scripture.

Read the verses again.

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

The words are quite clear. They received the Spirit BY BELIEVING the gospel. There is no time gap by this time in history.

Lastly, your comment that Peter and his companions viewed the Gentiles as saved because God filled them with his Spirit is your personal opinion and should be expressed as such.

Nonsense. I quoted the Scripture that PROVES that they considered the Gentiles saved. Here we go again:

Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

The "same gift" would refer to both salvation itself and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

There was no "peronal opinion" about it.

I state this in light of the message Peter presented on the Day of Pentecost.

OK, how soon after the crucifixion and resurrection? That's the key.

 

[SophieT]

I'm only poking at you. (a friendly gesture). No harm meant. Of a truth, I think it would be awesome to meet you in person (but I'm not asking to do so because that would be an awkward request).

LOL! yeah...I'm not a wrecking ball

 

[HisKid]

*sigh* lol. you know... 'drama' probably has a cousin named 'fiesty'.

This must be Sophie accusing me of being dramatic. She, actually, announced in this forum, twice (maybe more) she was putting me on ignore but continued to respond to my posts, so clearly she did not.. so I did the honors.

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2 One point of clarification in reference to a part of post #333:

You point out Galatians 3:2, 5 as evidence that people receive the Holy Spirit after believing the gospel message. And that is absolutely true. *Everyone who believes the gospel message will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit but not always at the exact moment they hear it as proven through scripture.

Only during the beginning of the church was there a time difference noted. By 49-55 AD the Spirit was given BY BELIEVING the gospel.

*Believing the gospel message anticipates obedience to it's commands; repentance, and submitting to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You previously charged me with stating a personal opinion, and here you are, stating your own personal opinion. No Scripture whatsoever.

 

[KelbyofGod]

However, I do not believe the "unclean spirit" in the passage you presented is related to an unrepentant sinner, as we are all sinners and are not all filled with an unclean spirit.

That's why I said it is only "something similar" to the quoted text, and not identical. It is more akin to what Peter said about a swine (sow, female pig) in 2 Peter 2:22 KJV:

"But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[SophieT]

This must be Sophie accusing me of being dramatic. She, actually, announced in this forum, twice (maybe more) she was putting me on ignore but continued to respond to my posts, so clearly she did not.. so I did the honors.

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's easily provable (biblically) that a person can receive the Holy Ghost a considerable amount of time AFTER belief, if that's what you're ultimately asking for.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

It occurred in the very early formation of the church. But by the time Paul wrote Galatians (49-55 AD) the Spirit was received by believing. Not some time later by the laying on of hands, such as Acts 19.