Sabbath

[Dan_473]

I do not believe it necessary for the Father or His Children to consult the cultures of His creation; I actually I believe He was is and will be to the end totally knowlegeable of man.

The written word kills but the Holy Spirit gives life......if the Holy Spirit is not present when one studies the Word, it is dath.

I think it is important to know the culture in which something is written. Which would include the Bible. For example, what does it mean when pilate washes his hands?

So, do you agree that there are things in the Old Testament that are mere shadows?

 

[Dan_473]

AS far as I have learned from Oral tradition of oral trdition, until the people of this world separated themselves from the Living God, they had a dialogue, therefore they know His wishes and obeyed them. It was not until Abraham was one of the last who did not pull aaway from God that the remainder of mankind lost track of God's desires.

I'm not sure what your answer is to the question, though. In your view, does the oral tradition passed down starting with Adam include not making treaties with Moab and Ammon?

 

[Mountaindude28]

God, as a God, can not die by definition. The only way for Him to offer His life for mine, was to become Flesh and Blood human. You can't accept that a human being is capable of following God's Sabbaths and laws because your entire religion is based on that lie. That man "CAN NOT" obey God. So in your religion, the Messiah was not Human, but immortal, with powers humans didn't have. This way when the going got tough, as it does with all humans, He just kicked in some God powers other humans don't have and that is how He was victorious over death.

This would be like cheating. Any human who was also immortal and a God could do what He did. So in your religion, He didn't do anything special, He didn't risk anything, He wasn't Flesh and Blood as the scriptures say. He was a man only in appearance.

This teaching is "AGAINST CHRIST", the Christ of the Bible. You replaced the human Messiah who risked everything out of Love of us, with a long haired men's hair shampoo model who risked nothing, who had nothing to lose.

I believe the man Jesus, was raised from the dead and given the immortality He had, as the Word of God, that He risked for His People. That is His Great Love for us.

As a God He could become a human and adhere to the Salvation plan He created which says the wages of sin is death. He never sinned as a human, therefore death could not hold Him according to God's Law which He said Lasts forever.

By preaching that He wasn't really a human, but also immortal God as well, you diminish His sacrifice and cheapen His victory.

You don't know this because you don't have the spirit of truth. You don't have the spirit of Truth because you don't really "Believe" in the Messiah described in the Bible. And as the Mainstream Preachers before you, you hate anyone who would love you enough to endure your scorn by showing you His Truth.

So far, God has been proven correct in everything He has inspired to be written. These miracles are a great Faith builder for me and I thank God every day for them.

Hallelujah! You are 100% right. Just read the Sh’ma that both Jews and Yeshua both attested to. But there is tons of evidence that G-d is One. Good stuff.

But don’t condemn the soul who believe in such things because as Gentiles, they are not held to such a high degree of idolatry as Jews because Jews rightfully know better and have a very deep understanding of idolatry. Many Christians are simple and can do many great works from their heart and lack the understanding of idolatry or this “Trinity teaching”. But of course those who “die” by such a theology and force it on others, are held to a different judgment. Regardless, have mercy on them but teach them the right way.

 

[Dan_473]

If God set's something apart and makes it Holy, or if God judges something as Evil or Unholy, is it a Command? Well, you are not obligated to "believe" God Dan, and you are also not obligated to obey His definition of Holy or Evil, Good or Bad.

You are free to make your own judgments and create your own holy. Many men do as the Bile records.

But Your "belief" or your "judgments" are nothing by a menstrual pad in the eyes of the Word which became Flesh, according to His Word. You may have been convinced that you are already immortal, already saved, as was Eve. But your "belief" doesn't have one iota of effect on God's Word or His Truth. Your life is a vapor, here today and gone tomorrow. You have this life to "believe" God or not. Many will call Him Lord, Lord, they will do all sorts of their version of "good" things all in His Name. But if you reject what God created as Holy and "good" and replaced it with your religious traditions, your own imaginations of the mind, then you are Cain just like those Jesus warned about in Matthew 7.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Men can either "Believe" in the Works of the Lord of the Sabbath, The word which became Flesh who created "ALL THINGS" or you don't.

I don't believe there is any other way but through Him.

"If God set's something apart and makes it Holy, or if God judges something as Evil or Unholy, is it a Command?"

If God says something is Holy, then I would say that is an implied command to acknowledge that it is Holy.

But the idea of God taking a particular action, in this case resting, is that an implied command that we are to rest also? I would say no.

So I agree that the Sabbath is holy. I disagree that God resting on the Sabbath is an implied commandment for us not to do physical labor on the Sabbath. I think that becomes a commandment at the time of Moses.

 

[Studyman]

"If God set's something apart and makes it Holy, or if God judges something as Evil or Unholy, is it a Command?"

If God says something is Holy, then I would say that is an implied command to acknowledge that it is Holy.

But the idea of God taking a particular action, in this case resting, is that an implied command that we are to rest also? I would say no.

So I agree that the Sabbath is holy. I disagree that God resting on the Sabbath is an implied commandment for us not to do physical labor on the Sabbath. I think that becomes a commandment at the time of Moses.

As the Bible says, "your belief" that God created His Commandment for men to honor His Sabbath at creation, or waited until Moses to Command His Holy, set apart, made for man Sabbath to be honored by men is irrelevant. Just as your belief whether God Commanded that Murder was a sin at creation, or waited until Moses to "write down" the Commandment is irrelevant. In God's Word murder is sin, and polluting His Holy Sabbath is a sin. We either believe in this God or not. But it is important to point out that our belief or lack thereof doesn't impact God's Word even in the slightest. His Word last forever while our life is a short, insignificant vapor here today and gone tomorrow.

God's Sabbath has always been "Set apart" and "Sanctified" as holy from creation, as it is written, just as Murder and stealing has always been a sin. Just because you might believe one thing and disbelieve the other is irrelevant.

Your belief or lack there of does not make the Word of God vain. So it doesn't matter if God created His instructions at creation, or waited until Moses. They are still His instructions. And notice that it is "ALWAYS" men who transgress the Commandment that makes excuses for doing so when the Word exposes their actions as lawless.

Not all men mind you, David, when he was shown his sin, didn't try to justify his sin, rather, humbled himself in repentance and accepted the punishment for his sin. as did Sampson and every other example of Faith in the Scriptures.

Maybe we should accept God's Definition of "Faith" and "Holy" and "Good" instead of just following the traditions of the religion we were born into.

 

[Dan_473]

As the Bible says, "your belief" that God created His Commandment for men to honor His Sabbath at creation, or waited until Moses to Command His Holy, set apart, made for man Sabbath to be honored by men is irrelevant. Just as your belief whether God Commanded that Murder was a sin at creation, or waited until Moses to "write down" the Commandment is irrelevant. In God's Word murder is sin, and polluting His Holy Sabbath is a sin. We either believe in this God or not. But it is important to point out that our belief or lack thereof doesn't impact God's Word even in the slightest. His Word last forever while our life is a short, insignificant vapor here today and gone tomorrow.

God's Sabbath has always been "Set apart" and "Sanctified" as holy from creation, as it is written, just as Murder and stealing has always been a sin. Just because you might believe one thing and disbelieve the other is irrelevant.

Your belief or lack there of does not make the Word of God vain. So it doesn't matter if God created His instructions at creation, or waited until Moses. They are still His instructions. And notice that it is "ALWAYS" men who transgress the Commandment that makes excuses for doing so when the Word exposes their actions as lawless.

Not all men mind you, David, when he was shown his sin, didn't try to justify his sin, rather, humbled himself in repentance and accepted the punishment for his sin. as did Sampson and every other example of Faith in the Scriptures.

Maybe we should accept God's Definition of "Faith" and "Holy" and "Good" instead of just following the traditions of the religion we were born into.

"But it is important to point out that our belief or lack thereof doesn't impact God's Word even in the slightest. "

Exactly! And along those same lines, speculation about God's word is not a great value either, I think.

Does God command the setting aside a physical labor on the Sabbath on that first seventh day? No. That is not stated. It can of course be speculated.

At the time of Moses it is stated that the Israelites were not to do physical labor on the Sabbath. That is where it is stated.

I agree that we don't want to pollute the Sabbath, we want to keep it or better yet fulfill it!

 

[Dan_473]

Something to ponder

We read that God Walked In the Garden in the cool of the day. does this mean that we are commanded to walk in a garden in the late afternoon?

Where I live, in the winter, the cool of the day is the very last time you want to be out walking!

 

[Studyman]

"But it is important to point out that our belief or lack thereof doesn't impact God's Word even in the slightest. "

Exactly! And along those same lines, speculation about God's word is not a great value either, I think.

Does God command the setting aside a physical labor on the Sabbath on that first seventh day? No. That is not stated. It can of course be speculated.

At the time of Moses it is stated that the Israelites were not to do physical labor on the Sabbath. That is where it is stated.

I agree that we don't want to pollute the Sabbath, we want to keep it or better yet fulfill it!

This is what happens when men try and use God's Word to justify sin, in this case, working on His Holy Sabbath. What they do is "omit" parts of the Word which bring their religion into question. For instance, to justify working on God's Sabbath, or doing whatever it is they believe needs justifying, they preach God only commanded Israelites not to steal, murder, Keep His Sanctified Sabbath Holy, etc., therefore God's Instructions are not for them.

To believe this, one must be convinced that God is a respecter of persons. They must also "omit" for their consideration the following Word's of the Christ before He became a man.

Ex. 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Is. 56:
1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, (Gentiles) that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

And "omit" the Word's of Christ after He became a Man.

Matt. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

Mark 2:
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man (Humans), and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

And you must also "omit" many word's of His Apostles.

Rom. 2:
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

So you have been convinced and you preach that God's Law is only given to Israel.

But the Christ, before He became Flesh and Blood, after He became Flesh and Blood, and His apostles after He ascended, says differently.

These Words are not speculation like you preaching God didn't give His 10 commandments to Adam, Cain, Sodom, or Abraham. But waited until Moses to give them.

Or even out and out falsehoods like your preaching that God only gave His 10 Commandments to Israel. These are all Word's inspired by the Holy God who the Man Jesus instructed we should live by.

But if we don't "Believe in Him" and His Word, then how can we "live by them". Those the Christ warned of in Matt. 7 are a testimony of what happens to folks who claim to know the Christ, but do not do as He instructs.

I also think it is wise to accept God's Definition of Good, polluting something, having Faith, what "sin" is. And when the Word shows us, we should be like David, not the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time.

 

[RDK]

in your view, Christ was not fully man and fully God. so, your views on what a Christian is supposed to be is invalid.

Out of the mouths of babes can come the most magnificent revelations. It seems that someone here has gotten a hold on some truth. Thank God that I didn't have to be the one to tell him Studyman.

 

[Dan_473]

This is what happens when men try and use God's Word to justify sin, in this case, working on His Holy Sabbath. What they do is "omit" parts of the Word which bring their religion into question. For instance, to justify working on God's Sabbath, or doing whatever it is they believe needs justifying, they preach God only commanded Israelites not to steal, murder, Keep His Sanctified Sabbath Holy, etc., therefore God's Instructions are not for them.

To believe this, one must be convinced that God is a respecter of persons. They must also "omit" for their consideration the following Word's of the Christ before He became a man.

Ex. 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Is. 56:
1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, (Gentiles) that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

And "omit" the Word's of Christ after He became a Man.

Matt. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

Mark 2:
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man (Humans), and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

And you must also "omit" many word's of His Apostles.

Rom. 2:
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

So you have been convinced and you preach that God's Law is only given to Israel.

But the Christ, before He became Flesh and Blood, after He became Flesh and Blood, and His apostles after He ascended, says differently.

These Words are not speculation like you preaching God didn't give His 10 commandments to Adam, Cain, Sodom, or Abraham. But waited until Moses to give them.

Or even out and out falsehoods like your preaching that God only gave His 10 Commandments to Israel. These are all Word's inspired by the Holy God who the Man Jesus instructed we should live by.

But if we don't "Believe in Him" and His Word, then how can we "live by them". Those the Christ warned of in Matt. 7 are a testimony of what happens to folks who claim to know the Christ, but do not do as He instructs.

I also think it is wise to accept God's Definition of Good, polluting something, having Faith, what "sin" is. And when the Word shows us, we should be like David, not the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time.

"This is what happens when men try and use God's Word to justify sin, in this case, working on His Holy Sabbath. '

No, this is simply dealing with just what God's word says. Not speculating. Not going beyond what is written.

Not justifying sin in anyway, keeping God's instructions, fulfilling the law as it is written.

 

[posthuman]

This is what happens when men try and use God's Word to justify sin, in this case, working on His Holy Sabbath.

i worked a few saturdays ago.
is that all anyone needs to know to call what i did wicked?

 

[lightbearer]

Something to ponder

We read that God Walked In the Garden in the cool of the day. does this mean that we are commanded to walk in a garden in the late afternoon?

You Don't actually think this is sound reasoning do you?

 

[lightbearer]

i worked a few saturdays ago.
is that all anyone needs to know to call what i did wicked?

The Word; GOD judges.

 

[posthuman]

Mark 2:
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man (Humans), and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

some very important context has been omitted:

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as His disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the sabbath?”​

He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”​

Then He said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.”​

(Mark 2:23-28) ​

the pharisees accuse Christ's disciples of breaking sabbath.
Jesus does not deny it.
He reminds them of how David and his men did what was forbidden in the law and were innocent.

Matthew's account of the same human accusal and divine answer gives us more information:

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”​

He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread — which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the law that the priests on sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.”​

(Matthew 12:1-8) ​

the pharisees accuse Christ's disciples of breaking sabbath.
Jesus does not deny it.
He reminds them of how David and his men did what was forbidden in the law and were innocent.
He reminds them that the lawful, commanded duties of the priests desecrate the sabbath and they are innocent.
He says they err in their accusal because they do not understand what it means that God desires mercy, not sacrifice.

this is the context of the saying, 'He is Lord of the sabbath'
these are His words which teach us what that means.
omitting them, men can surely twist His words to make them appear to say what they do not at all say, and the naive may be led away by the deception of smooth talk.

 

[posthuman]

The Word; GOD judges.

what does it say?
do you need to know anything other than the fact that i covered a saturday shift?

 

[posthuman]

You Don't actually think this is sound reasoning do you?

it's the same reasoning that says, it's recorded that God did something, therefore a command that all men do the same is implicit, even though there is no record of Him giving such a command.

He surely has a purpose and a reason to not record any command to observe sabbath, before Exodus 16, and to not record any command to observe sabbath with the advent of Christ. why?

 

[posthuman]

What would lead us to believe that Adam celebrated the Sabbath with God? As the story of the garden is presented, Adam and Eve spend time apart from God. That's why they can hear God walking in the cool of the day after they have eaten the fruit.

what day was it when this event took place?

 

[Studyman]

some very important context has been omitted:

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as His disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the sabbath?”​

He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”​

Then He said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.”​

(Mark 2:23-28) ​

the pharisees accuse Christ's disciples of breaking sabbath.
Jesus does not deny it.
He reminds them of how David and his men did what was forbidden in the law and were innocent.

Matthew's account of the same human accusal and divine answer gives us more information:

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”​

He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread — which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the law that the priests on sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.”​

(Matthew 12:1-8) ​

the pharisees accuse Christ's disciples of breaking sabbath.
Jesus does not deny it.
He reminds them of how David and his men did what was forbidden in the law and were innocent.
He reminds them that the lawful, commanded duties of the priests desecrate the sabbath and they are innocent.
He says they err in their accusal because they do not understand what it means that God desires mercy, not sacrifice.

this is the context of the saying, 'He is Lord of the sabbath'
these are His words which teach us what that means.
omitting them, men can surely twist His words to make them appear to say what they do not at all say, and the naive may be led away by the deception of smooth talk.

My point is that your "belief" or understanding that this one story wipes out all that is said by this same Christ regarding His Sabbath doesn't make it so. And given He is truly the Lord of the Sabbath, should He not know it's meaning better than a bunch of self righteous preachers who have rejected God's Words and replaced them with their own? And given you have taught other things which have been proven false, could you have this wrong as well?

Just the fact that the Christ already told us about these preachers and their religion brings your teaching about them into question.

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matt. 23: 4 For they (Pharisees not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

You are assuming here, falsely so, that is was the Pharisees who were following God's Laws and Jesus was the one breaking them. This is because you have been convinced of the lie that the Pharisees were "following God's Commandments", not doctrines of men they taught were God's Commandments, as the Christ teaches.

And another Fact is Jesus didn't break God's Sabbath or any other of God's Commandments. So your preaching that He "didn't deny" the White Washed Walls accusations of Him means what exactly?

He lived contrary to the Laws and religious traditions that the Mainstream Preachers of His Time laid on the backs of the people. But anyone who works to understand God's Word knows it was never against God to walk in fellowship with Him and eat a strawberry or ear of corn on His Sabbath.

It was never against God's Sabbath's to help a Brother in Need on his Holy Sabbath, and it was never against God for His Priest's, including the Christ, to perform duties for the people, separated unto the Priesthood.


Jesus pointed out to them that by their same judgment of Him, they would also have to condemn the Priests, their fathers, who were fulfilling the Duties of the Priesthood Commanded them by this same Word which became Flesh. It was "lawful" for a "Priest" to give David some Bread and his sword. It was "lawful" for the "Priest's" to perform duties for the people on God's Sabbath that God separated them to perform.

It was "Lawful" for the Christ to teach His Disciples on the Sabbath and God never cared if they picked a blueberry on a Sabbath walk.

It is also prudent to note that Jesus didn't use His own Word's here in their rebuke, but went straight to the Law and Prophets that these "Preachers" twisted and misrepresented.

He said the same thing in another place.

John 5:
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

 

[posthuman]

My point is that your "belief" or understanding that this one story wipes out all that is said by this same Christ regarding His Sabbath doesn't make it so.

what you are saying is a lie; it is slander. i do not and have never said anything in the Bible 'wipes out' the rest
you know that, too. but you keep bearing false witness. why?

 

[posthuman]

And given you have taught other things which have been proven false, could you have this wrong as well?

the truth is that you have slanderously said that i 'preach' things that i have not said, and you falsely accuse me of 'teaching' things that are not true, that i have not said.