REVELATION STUDY

[oldhermit]

B. “And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.”

1. The new Jerusalem
“Coming down out of heaven” defines her place of origin. There is no question of the identity of the new Jerusalem because Hebrews 12:22-23 tells us, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect.”

2. The bride
The focus here seems to be on the adornment of the bride. How has the bride made herself ready? She has been “faithful until death,” She has “remembered her first love.” She has “held fast.” She has “not soiled her garments.” And now, she will “walk with Me in white (traditional bridal attire).” She has kept her marriage covenant with the Lord.

C. God has fulfilled his covenant to Abraham. “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.” Genesis 17:7.

“And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men (The dwelling place of God, the Church), and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them (God has fulfilled his covenant.), and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away” (Back to Isaiah 65:19 – These things represent a time of judgment, punishment, and bondage). And He who sits on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’ And He said, ‘Write, for these words are faithful and true.’ Then He said to me, ‘It is done.’”

D. The covenant of blessing and cursing, 6-8

1. Blessing
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.”

a. Blessing is granted only to those who overcome.
b. The living water.
What is this living water? The intent of this expression is clearly a metaphor for eternal life. This expression comes out of Jeremiah 2:13 “For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters....” Also, 17:13, “O Lord, the hope of Israel, all who forsake You will be put to shame. Those who turn away on earth will be written down, because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the Lord.”

 Jesus used this expression in 7:38. “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.”

Although this is not a direct quote from the Old Testament, this idea is seen in many OT passages such as we saw in Jeremiah 2. The closest OT passage that seems to satisfy this particular statement is Isaiah 58:11, “And the Lord will continually guide you, and satisfy your desire in scorched places, and give strength to your bones; And you will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water whose waters do not fail.”

 Revelation 7:17; “for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

2. Cursing
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Cursing is extended to the remainder of humanity. This list reveals several things.
a. The catalogue of offenders
(All definitions taken from a summary of Strong's, NASEC, and Thayer.)

 The cowardly
Δειλοῖς – from δεος meaning dread, timid. In other words, those who are faithless, fearful, afraid, cowardly. This would describe those of the Body who failed to overcome.

 The unbelieving
Ἀπίστοις – The unbelieving, those without faith, a heathen; (passively), an untrustworthy person, one that believes not, the faithless, the infidel, the unbeliever.

 The abominable
Ἐβδελυγμένοις – from a (presumed) derivative of βδέω (to stink); to be disgusted. In other words, (by implication) detest (especially of idolatry) – abhor, abominable. Thus, these would be those who have become a stench in the nostrils of the Lord.

 Murderers
Φονεῦσιν – a murderer (always of criminal, or at least intentional homicide). These are those who seek to shed innocent blood.

 The immoral
Πόρνοις – From pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of πιπράσκω); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine) -- fornicator, whoremonger. This really describes any type of sexually immoral perversion.

 Sorcerers
Φαρμάκοις – Properly used of people using drugs and "religious incantations" to drug people into living by their illusions – like having magical (supernatural) powers to manipulate God into giving them more temporal possessions. Prosperity gospel?

 Idolaters
Εἰδωλολάτραις – Those who worship false gods (those who devote themselves to other things to the exclusion of God).

 ALL liars
Πᾶσιν τοῖς ψευδέσιν – Those who are false, deceitful, lying, or untrue. How does one determine who is immoral and detestable? There must be a fixed standard of measurement and that measurement is the revealed word of God. These are measured against what is written in the books
(See Strong’s for all the above definitions.)

b. What this book tells is that good and evil are clearly defined.

 That there is a revealed standard of right and wrong.
 That ALL men will be held accountable to that standard.
 All behavior has eternal consequences from which there is no appeal, no clemency, no leniency, and no mercy.

The sentencing represents finality. This is the second death. Only two types of death are presented in scripture, physical death and spiritual death. Physical death will be overturned in the final resurrection. The only place spiritual death is overturned is in baptism as is described by the apostle Paul in Romans 6. Sin will either be judged in baptism or it will be judged in the final resurrection. This judgment is eternal death.

remnant of all the nations of Israel is represented here, Romans 11:25-26.); its length and width and height are equal. And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.” In other words, there is no difference in the standard of measurement between that of man and that of the angels.

 

[oldhermit]

2. The measuring of the New Jerusalem is to certify that nothing about her is defiled. She measures up. Nothing is found wanting in her. Everything that defiles is cast out.

3. Description of the wall and the foundation stones

a. “The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.”

b. “The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx (onyx); the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.”

This is reminiscent of the twelve stones mentioned in the breastplate of the high priest in Exodus 28:17-20, “...the first row shall be a row of ruby, topaz and emerald; and the second row a turquoise, a sapphire and a diamond; and the third row a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; and the fourth row a beryl and an onyx and a jasper;”

Each stone represents one of the twelve tribes – the foundation of the people of God. Everything that is measured is very beautiful, and very precious. Every tribe is represented. These suggest glory and beauty. In Exodus 28, these stones are set in the order of the birth of each tribe. Now, in Revelation 21, they are not listed in the order of their birth because now, all the tribes have received a full inheritance in Christ. The Birth order is no longer of importance.

4. The true temple
“I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (The role is now reversed. Now, it is not the Church who is represented as the dwelling place of God. Rather, it is God who is the dwelling place of the Church. This has to be the ultimate expression of intimacy between God and his people.) And the city (the Church) has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth (an expression often used to represent the kings of Israel, but can also mean the kings of the nations.) will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed (This is an expression of safety, security, and accessibility. There is no more danger from without); and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it (The Church); and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it (The Church), but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

The Church is always represented as feminine in scripture. Although αὐτῇ is feminine spelling, it is also neuter. The reason αὐτῇ is translated as a neuter in verses 23-27 in almost all English translations is because the Church is being presented as a city, and city is properly represented as a neuter.

 

[Truth7t7]

There simply is no evidence for dating the book to AD 96.

There are some things about the Irenaeus statement that need to be noted.

1. First, Irenaeus did not witness this. He only referred to Polycarp who reportedly knew the apostle John.

2. Secondly, the key part – “it is not long since it was seen” – is ambiguous. What defines “not long?” According to Irenaeus recollection, Polycarp saw “it” sometime in AD 95-96, during the last part Domitian's reign.

3. Thirdly, we do not know if the “it” Polycarp was referring to was John's visions he saw, the name of anti-Christ, or the book itself; and we do not even know if he meant that the book was written at that time. Furthermore, it comes to us through three people separated by three centuries. Simply put, this is nothing more than third-hand hear-say.

This statement, even with all of this uncertainty, is the best and only evidence used in support of the “late date” theory. Despite that, it has been accepted by generations of people without really questioning it or examining it in light of the book itself. The late date has been passed on to us in the same way it was passed on to Eusebius, “…it [was] handed down by tradition…” Tradition is not the way to interpret Scripture.

You will closely note that (Iranaeus 130-202AD) saw a "Future" The Beast/Antichrist from his 2nd Century life, this being just another testament against the "Preterist" teachings of 1st-2nd century fulfillment

Iranaeus Of Lyons, Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXX

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire;

 

[oldhermit]

II. The New Jerusalem, 9-26

A. The contrast of two Jerusalems

1. The first Jerusalem

a. God loved Israel as his chosen people.

 Deuteronomy 7:7-8
“The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

 Deuteronomy 7:13-14
“And He will love you and bless you and multiply you; He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your land… the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flock, in the land of which He swore to your fathers to give you. You shall be blessed above all peoples.”

b. Blessings from the Lord were very often conditional.

 Deuteronomy 10:12-13
“And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your good?” What the Lord requires of his people has never changed.

 Deuteronomy 28:58-66 shows us the consequences.
“If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues… And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess. Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other… And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. Your life shall hang in doubt before you.”

c. Israel punished by the Lord
Ezekiel 16:35-41, “Therefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God, “Because your lewdness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered through your harlotries with your lovers and with all your detestable idols, and because of the blood of your sons which you gave to idols, therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, even all those whom you loved and all those whom you hated. So, I will gather them against you from every direction and expose your nakedness to them that they may see all your nakedness. Thus, I will judge you like women who commit adultery or shed blood are judged; and I will bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy. I will also give you into the hands of your lovers, and they will tear down your shrines, demolish your high places, strip you of your clothing, take away your jewels, and will leave you naked and bare. They will incite a crowd against you and they will stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords. They will burn your houses with fire and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women. Then I will stop you from playing the harlot, and you will also no longer pay your lovers.”

d. Israel repented and was restored.
Jeremiah 31:3-20 – “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore with loving-kindness I have drawn you. Again, I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt, O virgin of Israel! You shall again be adorned with your tambourines and shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice. You shall yet plant vines on the mountains of Samaria… He who scattered Israel will gather him and keep him as a shepherd does his flock. For the Lord has redeemed Jacob and ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he. Therefore, they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, streaming to the goodness of the Lord… their souls shall be like a well-watered garden, and they shall sorrow no more at all… for I will turn their mourning to joy, will comfort them, and make them rejoice rather than sorrow… Is Ephraim My dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For though I spoke against him, I earnestly remember him still; therefore, My heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him, says the Lord.”

e. What did Jesus have to say about national Jerusalem in the Gospels?

 Matthew 23:37-39, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who come in the name of the Lord!’”

 Matthew 8:11-12, “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

f. How has the first Jerusalem been represented in Revelation?

 11:8, “...the great city which mystically is called Sodom (representing the gross immorality of the nation) and Egypt (representing her love for idolatry), where also their Lord was crucified.”

 17:5, “Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth.” This is how God had come to regard the old Jerusalem.

 18:2-3, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”

 18:10, “Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.”

 18:21-24, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. “And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. “And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

 19:1-3, “Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; Because His judgments are true and righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth (rather than being a light unto the nations as was their divine charge, Isaiah 49:6.) with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of His bond-servants on her. And a second time they said, ‘Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever.’” She shall never rise again.

 

[oldhermit]

2. The New Jerusalem – how does she compare to the old Jerusalem?
“Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, ‘Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.’ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God.’”

Israel has always been the bride of Jehovah. The New Jerusalem is still the bride of Jehovah.

a. She is seen descending out of heaven upon the new heavens and the new earth.
Of the first Jerusalem God said, “...Your origin and your birth are from the land of the Canaanite, your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite...You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and children. You are also the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite,” Ezekiel 16:3 and 45.

Her origin was from a despicable heritage. Remember, that heaven and that earth have passed away. The new heaven and earth, as we saw in Isaiah 65:17-19, represents a restored national and spiritual state of the people of God. This same old planet now plays host to the New Jerusalem – the Bride of the Lamb – the Church consisting of both Gentiles and the faithful remnant of Israel. This is the woman who fled into the wilderness where God had prepared a place for her (the Church) in the time of persecution in 12:6 where she was to be nourished. Now that judgment has been executed upon her persecutors, she is seen descending out of heaven to a new heaven and earth.

 New heaven
The new governmental authorities of the Church are not those of the nations, but of heaven. We have a new King. We are citizens of a new kingdom. The seat of our government is in heaven where Christ sits on the throne.

 New earth
The new place of the nations is now the church. The Church is comprised of these of every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

b. “Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.”
A bride that is so striking in her beauty that she cannot be described in human language. The only way the beauty of the bride can be represented to us is in symbols – valuable, crystal-clear jasper.

c. Of what is this construction of this new Jerusalem?

 “It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates (These are points of entry. The Church began with Israel, and now, all the nations stream into her), and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.”

 “There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west (These were points of entry. Ezekiel 40). And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones (the message of the apostles and the prophets), and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This same idea is seen earlier in chapter four with the vision of the twenty-four elders who represent the redeemed of both covenants of whom the Church is comprised. In Ephesians 2:19-22, Paul says, “So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.”

Notice that in 21:22, there is no temple in the city. Why, because now, the whole city is the temple. All of her is now MOST HOLY. In 2 Corinthians 6:16 Paul says, “...For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, ‘I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be MY people.’” Paul also mentions the prophets as part of the foundation of the Church. It was the apostles and the prophets who were the instrument by which the Word of God was extended to the world. The walls of the city were the faithful remnant of God's people – the Church.

B. The measuring of the NEW Jerusalem, 15-17.

1. The old Jerusalem was measured in chapter eleven for the purpose of separating out everything that defiles. “The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall. The city is laid out as a square (This is a picture of the holy of holies that was laid out four-square in Exodus 27.), and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles (This should be twelve thousand furlongs not 1500 miles. It is the number 12 that is significant, 1000 furlongs per tribe. In other words, all the faithful remnant of all the nations of Israel is represented here, Romans 11:25-26.); its length and width and height are equal. And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.” In other words, there is no difference in the standard of measurement between that of man and that of the angels.

2. The measuring of the New Jerusalem is to certify that nothing about her is defiled. She measures up. Nothing is found wanting in her. Everything that defiles is cast out.

3. Description of the wall and the foundation stones

a. “The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.”

b. “The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx (onyx); the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.”

This is reminiscent of the twelve stones mentioned in the breastplate of the high priest in Exodus 28:17-20, “...the first row shall be a row of ruby, topaz and emerald; and the second row a turquoise, a sapphire and a diamond; and the third row a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; and the fourth row a beryl and an onyx and a jasper;”

Each stone represents one of the twelve tribes – the foundation of the people of God. Everything that is measured is very beautiful, and very precious. Every tribe is represented. These suggest glory and beauty. In Exodus 28, these stones are set in the order of the birth of each tribe. Now, in Revelation 21, they are not listed in the order of their birth because now, all the tribes have received a full inheritance in Christ. The Birth order is no longer of importance.

4. The true temple
“I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (The role is now reversed. Now, it is not the Church who is represented as the dwelling place of God. Rather, it is God who is the dwelling place of the Church. This has to be the ultimate expression of intimacy between God and his people.) And the city (the Church) has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth (an expression often used to represent the kings of Israel, but can also mean the kings of the nations.) will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed (This is an expression of safety, security, and accessibility. There is no more danger from without); and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it (The Church); and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it (The Church), but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

The Church is always represented as feminine in scripture. Although αὐτῇ is feminine spelling, it is also neuter. The reason αὐτῇ is translated as a neuter in verses 23-27 in almost all English translations is because the Church is being presented as a city, and city is properly represented as a neuter.

 

[oldhermit]

You will closely note that (Iranaeus 130-202AD) saw a "Future" The Beast/Antichrist from his 2nd Century life, this being just another testament against the "Preterist" teachings of 1st-2nd century fulfillment

Iranaeus Of Lyons, Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXX

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire;

What he is describing fits the reign of Domitian.

 

[Truth7t7]

What he is describing fits the reign of Domitian.

Glen with all respect and in love

Domitian reigned in 81-96AD

Iranaeus life was 130-202AD, he was writing the words below roughly 90-100 years "After" the reign of Domitian?

Your claim the description fits Domitian is in error.

You will closely note that (Iranaeus 130-202AD) saw a "Future" The Beast/Antichrist from his 2nd Century life, this being just another testament against the "Preterist" teachings of 1st-2nd century fulfillment

Iranaeus Of Lyons, Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXX

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire;

 

[oldhermit]

Glen with all respect and in love

Domitian reigned in 81-96AD

Iranaeus life was 130-202AD, he was writing the words below roughly 90-100 years "After" the reign of Domitian?

Your claim the description fits Domitian is in error.

You will closely note that (Iranaeus 130-202AD) saw a "Future" The Beast/Antichrist from his 2nd Century life, this being just another testament against the "Preterist" teachings of 1st-2nd century fulfillment

Iranaeus Of Lyons, Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXX

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire;

You are treating the writings of Iranaeus as though they are inspired. Iranaeus was wrong about a great many things. Simply because Iranaeus was looking for an antichrist to come at some point in the future does not mean that he was right in his expectations. This is all conjecture based on the man's own brand of eschatology. The man was a heretic. In John's epistles, he is very clear that the antichrist was present in his own time, and that his readers knew who he was.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are treating the writings of Iranaeus as though they are inspired. Iranaeus was wrong about a great many things. Simply because Iranaeus was looking for an antichrist to come at some point in the future does not mean that he was right in his expectations. This is all conjecture based on the man's own brand of eschatology. The man was a heretic. In John's epistles, he is very clear that the antichrist was present in his own time, and that his readers knew who he was.

Iranaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John who wrote the Revelation

It appears that your Pre-Determined bias for fulfillment in Domitian 81-96AD has got the best of you

You will closely note that (Iranaeus 130-202AD) saw a "Future" The Beast/Antichrist from his 2nd Century life, this being just another testament against the "Preterist" teachings of 1st-2nd century fulfillment

Iranaeus Of Lyons, Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXX

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire;

 

[oldhermit]

Iranaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John who wrote the Revelation

It appears that your Pre-Determined bias for fulfillment in Domitian 81-96AD has got the best of you

You will closely note that (Iranaeus 130-202AD) saw a "Future" The Beast/Antichrist from his 2nd Century life, this being just another testament against the "Preterist" teachings of 1st-2nd century fulfillment

Iranaeus Of Lyons, Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXX

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire;

I know who Iranaeus was. Are you relying in the statements of Iranaeus as the sole evidence for dating Rev at AD 96? What other evidence can you offer?

 

[Truth7t7]

I know who Iranaeus was. Are you relying in the statements of Iranaeus as the sole evidence for dating Rev at AD 96? What other evidence can you offer?

Glen not only did Iranaeus show the Revelation was written at the end of Domitians reign, and he saw a future Antichrist from his life, all the early church father saw a future Antichrist

Justin Martyr, Iranaeus, Hippolytus, for starters

And you still will cling to Domitian 81-96AD as your Antichrist (Preterist) fulfillment

(Preterism) is a false teaching, just as (Dispensationalism) is a false teaching.

 

[Dino246]

The book is dated at 95-96 AD on many factors, but the writing of Iranaeus is the greatest witness seen below

Wikipedia: Domitian

"Domitian (/dəˈmɪʃən, -iən/; Latin: Titus Flavius Caesar Domitianus Augustus;[2] 24 October 51 – 18 September 96) was Roman emperor from 81 to 96."

Iranaeus Of Lyons, Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXX

"we infer, that perchance he who is to come shall be called "Titan." We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.

This was the same Irenaeus who taught that Jesus was about 50 years old when He died. That's your greatest witness?

If I presented that in support of something with which you disagree, you would say, "Big smiles!"

 

[Rondonmon]

Not mentioned there but there is a horse involved with the second coming mentioned in a dif chapter:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Which just stands for Jesus' CONQUERING. The White Horse has always stood for Conquering, we all "Ride White Horses" too, I think it's just symbolism.

Notice lamad has quite down, whenever I overpower his facts with facts he goes silent on his quips. The thing is, a month from now he will be saying the same old stuff again, even though I have destroyed that concept.

 

[oldhermit]

Chapter Twenty-two

I. The River of Life and the Tree of Life, 1-2
The quality of life enjoyed in the garden of Eden has now been restored to man. The scene has not changed from that of chapter twenty-one. These are not images of heaven, but of the New Jerusalem, the holy city that came down out of heaven. This is still describing characteristics of the Church.

“Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”

A. “Coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,”
The throne of God and the throne of the Lamb are one-in-the-same throne. Throne is not to be taken as a literal chair upon which sits God and the Lamb. Throne simply represents the source of power, authority, and life because it is from the throne that the river of life proceeds.

B. “On either side of the river was the tree of life.”
The tree of life is restored because the curse is removed. The fact that the tree of life is seen on both sides of the river shows us that the accessibility of life is not just for those on the Canaan side of the river, but for those nations on the other side as well. In other words, the river no longer represents a boundary between Israel and the nations. That distinction no longer exists. Life is now available to all.

C. “Bearing twelve kinds of fruit.”
In chapter 21, we are told how the number 12 is used to represent the apostles. The twelve kinds of fruit then would seem to refer to the apostolic gospel. This is simply another way of representing the twelve apostles as the foundation. Their gospel is the fruit that gives life of which all are invited to partake.

D. “Yielding its fruit every month,” speaks of its never-ending accessibility. This fruit is always in season. There is no time in which the invitation of the Lord to eat of the tree does not go forth.

E. “And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
The leaves are represented as having curative properties and the healing is extended to all nations, not just Israel. God expressed this same idea to disobedient Israel in Jeremiah 8:22, “Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then has not the health of the daughter of my people been restored?” Also, in 46:11, “Go up to Gilead and obtain balm, O virgin daughter of Egypt! In vain have you multiplied remedies; There is no healing for you.”

Now, John presents humanity with an opportunity for the healing of all the nations, and this healing comes from the God of Israel.

 

[oldhermit]

II. The Curse of the Garden is Removed and Fellowship Between God and Man has Been Restored, 3-5.
This is a picture of unbroken fellowship. It is as if the violation of the tree of knowledge had never taken place. Access to the tree of life and the water of life are once again restored and the curse is taken away. The place of this restoration is the Church, not heaven.

“There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it (her), and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face.”

A. Man's relationship with God is restored in the Church. God is no longer hiding his face.

1. Isaiah 8:17, “And I will wait for the Lord who is hiding His face from the house of Jacob.”

2. Isaiah 57:17, “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, and he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.”

Now, God is no longer hiding his face because the curse is taken away. Hebrews 2:13, “Behold, I and the children whom God has given me.” God can now behold his people whom Jesus presents to him.

B. God claims his property.
“And His name will be on their foreheads and there will no longer be any night (No lack for the knowledge of God. Knowledge of the Lord is available to all – in the Church); and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun.” (This darkness is not related to the absence of artificial light or that of celestial bodies. The light he is talking about is revealed knowledge, just as God promised in Jeremiah 31:34). They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,’ declares the Lord, ‘for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.’”

C. “Because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.”
This is the realization of John 1:9-12, “There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Thus, ends the prophesies and visions given to John. What follows next is a collection of admonitions that are intended to urge the saints of the seven Churches to fidelity because the time for these events was to soon be upon them.

 

[oldhermit]

III. The Certainty and Imminence of these Prophecies for John's Readers, 6-10
“And he said to me, ‘These words are faithful and true;’ and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. ‘And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.’ I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, ‘Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.’ And he said to me, ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.’”

The visions of Daniel 9 and 12 are about to be fulfilled before their eyes. When Daniel received these visions, he was told to seal up the book for the time was not yet. Now, John is given these same visions and told, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.” Everything John had just presented to his readers (the seven Churches in Asia) were things that were to happen very soon in their time, not centuries and generations down the road of human history not yet realized. All these scenes depicted events that would affect them very soon both personally and directly.

IV. The Final Message, 11-21

A. “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.”

The reason for this concession lends weight to the fact that the reality of these things was so close that no change of mind could be expected from those upon whom these judgments were about to fall. But to the righteous and the holy he admonishes, “still practice righteousness” and “keep yourself holy.” Why, because “I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me.”

B. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Jesus uses the same designations of deity he used when he began his discourse to the seven Churches in 1:8.

1. The Alpha and the Omega, The Beginning and the End
This is the equivalent of the Hebrew expression “Yea and Amen” and simply designates the beginning and the end of a matter and everything that lies between the two points.

2. The First and the Last – The preeminent One

3. The Beginning and the End
The causative agent of the universe. Whatever happens is because he has determined it to happen. What was about to happen to them was because he was about to bring it to pass. The things that were coming were not just some random series of meaningless event. These things were determined from the eternal dimension in fulfillment of an eternal purpose.

V. A Closing Blessing from the Lord of the Prophecies, 14-16.
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter by the gates (Apostolic doctrines) into the city (The Church, not heaven). Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you of these things for the churches. (This again certifies to whom the book was written.) I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

A. Qualifiers for eternal life

1. “Wash their robes”
This is the process of separating one's self from the world of the “dogs, the sorcerers, the immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.” This is keeping ourselves unspotted from the world.

2. “Enter by the gates into the city.”
The point of entry is the Church. It is only through the people of God that access is gained. “There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb,” 21:14,

The only point of entry is through the message of the apostles. Fellowship with Christ is found only within the “holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God” – the Church. Again, “coming down out of heaven” simply signifies her place of origin. The Church is not a construct of the world. The Church began in the mind of God.

B. These are represented as separating factors. “Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.”

Outside is prepositional. It does not mean those who are outside of heaven, but those who are outside the Church. This does not mean that since we are part of the redeemed, we will not be confronted by these persecuting elements of the world. It only means we have nothing to fear from them. The most they can do is kill our bodies, and the Lord has already admonished us in Matthew 10:28, “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul....” This warning then is for the Church; “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches.”

C. “I am the root and the descendant of David.”
This establishes the legitimacy of his office. He is the rightful King of kings by descent from the kingly line of David. He has the legitimate right to occupy the throne of his people. Notice, he is both the “root” and the “descendent.” As the “root,” he is the origin of the line of David. As the “descendent,” he joined himself to the line of David according to the flesh, Romans 1.

D. “The bright morning star.”
The Morning Star is one of the titles of Christ in Revelation 2:28 that seems to be a symbol of his glory. This may suggest then that what Christ promised to give the faithful at Thyatira was fellowship with him in his glory. They will share in his glory. We become partakers of the glory of Christ, not just in heaven, but in the Church.

VI. The Invitation of the Holy Spirit, 17
“The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.”

The invitation is in no way qualified. It is extended to ALL humanity. How fitting that such an invitation should be extended personally from the Holy Spirit since He is the one whom Joel said would be poured out upon all mankind, Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17. Now, all men are given the same invitation that the Lord extended to Israel in Isaiah 55:1 saying, “Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.”

VII. The Curse upon the Arrogant, 18-21.
“I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.”

A. The object and content of the warning

1. This warning is not directed at the unbeliever or the ungodly. It is directed toward those who were to “hear the words of the prophecy of this book.” The warning in this text specifically concerns the content of the book of Revelation, not to the whole of scripture, although this is sometimes how we read this passage. This does not however give one the license to treat ANY portion of the Word of God in such a cavalier manner. As a matter of fact, we are instructed in Deuteronomy 4:2, “You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” Also, in Deuteronomy 12:32 he adds, “Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.”

2. This warning is directed at the seven Churches to whom this book was written. God does not take away from someone that which they do not have. The warning is to anyone arrogant enough to attempt to alter the words of God in any way stands to lose that which they have.

a. His part in the tree of life

b. His part in the holy city
These are things those of the world do not possess.

B. John again confirms the source of the warning, it is from the one who said, “I come quickly,” and he follows this with an Amen – “so let it be.” He then extends this common blessing upon his readers. “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all.”

 

[Rondonmon]

Chapter Seven

I. The Sealing of the 144,000
Contrary to the opinion of many commentators, chapter seven is NOT an interlude between chapter six and chapter eight. This is still the opening of the sixth seal. In 6:10, the martyred saints are questioning “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” The answer from the Lord is, “Until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.” The number of those appointed to martyrdom was apparently a fixed number determined by the Lord. The impending judgment pronounced in chapter six waits for the completion of that number and the sealing of the redeemed, 1-3.

“After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, ‘Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.’”

Revelation Chapter 7 is the Zechariah 13:8-9 repentance of the Jews, it's not 144,000 it's more like 3-5 million Jews.

The number 12 means FULNESS and the number 10 is a stand n for COMPLETENESS, thus the 144,000 number is a metaphor for ALL Israel like as unto this: 12 (FULNESS) x 12 x 10 (COMPLETENESS) x 10 x 10 = 144,000, it just means ALL Israel who repents. Just like New Jerusalem is measured in the exact same way, it's not 144,000, that just means ALL of New Jerusalem, the actual old measurements used would come to about 1380 square miles, but I think it just a metaphoric number, just like the 12 tribes.

We can see via where Rev. 7 is at what its purpose is, what God is doing here, this is a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation, Jesus in chapter 1 is the FIRST & LAST (Things you have seen), the Churches represent the entire Church Age (Things which are) and everything from Rev. 4:1 on are the (HEREAFTER). Thus we see the Church in Heaven in Rev. 4 and 5 as Jesus is about to open the Seals and Prophesy about what is about to befall mankind on Earth. Then in Rev. 6, we see Jesus opening those Seals and "PROPHESYING" what the coming Wrath of God WILL BRING when the First Judgment Trumpet is sounded. That brings us to Rev. 7 of course, what happens at the 1290 which happens 30 days BEFORE the 1260 Conquering of Jerusalem? The Jews FLEE Judea at the 1290m AoD as Jesus WARNED them they must, he said flee unto the Mountains (Petra/Bozrah) at that time.

So, the 144,000 (3-5 million Jews who repent, see Zechariah 13:8-9 where the 1/3 REPENT) are Fleeing right before the Judgments STRIKE EARTH and we know this by the verbiage that is used in Rev. 7, the Angels are told to hold up the four winds (Gods power) and to HURT NOT............The Earth, Sea nor Trees........... until the 144,000 are SEALED (Protected) in the head. So, we all know what hurts the Earth Sea, and Trees, we can see it in Rev. 8, it is the Trumpet Judgments that hurt the Earth, Sea and, Trees. That is as plain as day, so the Jews are fleeing Judea here in between Jesus opening the Seals, which seems to be around the time of the 1290, thus we see the Jews fleeing in Rev. 7 just before the Asteroid Strikes earth in Rev. 8, which is, of course, the 1260 Day of the Lord Event, the one in which the Anti-Christ piggybacks as per the timing of events.

The Great Multitude as seen in Rev. 7:9-17 has nothing to do with the 70th-week tribulation, which is a misunderstanding by men who can't seem to allow God to describe two different measurements with the word GREAT.....our wise men from earth...... have created a word "GREAT TRIBULATION" which can only mean GREAT in severity, we refuse to allow God to use the word GREAT with the length of time He is describing through John His servant. We know these Saints seen in Rev. 7 CAN NOT be from the 70th week tribulation period via the same book of Revelation, yet people persist with the narrative because that is what they always BELIEVED it to mean. (LOL) Thus we get the same mistakes made over and over.

In the 5th Seal, the Martyrs are told SPECIFICALLY, that they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, thus this is Jesus saying to all the Martyrs of the 70th week, hey, you have to wait on the Beasts 42-month rule to end before yu re avenged. That, quite simply, is exactly what Jesus said there, yet those in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the "GREAT TRIBULATION" even though Jesus just made an emphatic statement that disproves that type of thinking. We also see SPECIFIC WORDS in Rev. 20:4 that shows us, NO MAN from the 70th week tribulation period is RAISED UP unto Heaven at that time, because they are all Judged in the Rev. 20:4 Judgment, AFTER Jesus' Return !! So, how are they seen in Rev. 7:9-17? The answer, THEY AREN'T. That is just an Answer by the Mid and Post tribulation guys who are defeated with any other answer !! Because any other answer leaves for ONLY a Pre Trib Rapture. So, Jesus told us no one from the 70th week goes to Heaven, they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers die in like manner as they did. Yet we have people who actually say, oh, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the 70th Week Tribulation Saints. No, they are the Church Age Tribulation Saints. The Church Age was of course Tribulation, and it was a 2000 some odd year period of time, which makes it MUCH GREATER in length/time than the 70th week period of 7 years or the 3.5 year period, thus God described it as GREAT because 2000 is GREATER than 7 or 3.5. Let's stop pigeonholing God because it only leads to us misunderstanding God's Holy Word, and thus Satan succeeds in his CONFUSION OF THE MASSES.

2000>7. It's that simple. Those seen in Rv. 7:9-17 came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION Church Age Period where millions were murdered and built the Church with their blood. The Martyrs of the 70th week will be Judged and raised up after the Second Coming, see Rev. 20:4 and the 5th Seal proves that via Jesus' own words. Mid and Post Trib just accept the BOOM and move on.

P.S. there never were any LOST TRIBES..........PERIOD. They each had SEED living in Jerusalem when the ten tribes were toted off.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation Chapter 7 is the Zechariah 13:8-9 repentance of the Jews, it's not 144,000 it's more like 3-5 million Jews.

The number 12 means FULNESS and the number 10 is a stand n for COMPLETENESS, thus the 144,000 number is a metaphor for ALL Israel like as unto this: 12 (FULNESS) x 12 x 10 (COMPLETENESS) x 10 x 10 = 144,000, it just means ALL Israel who repents. Just like New Jerusalem is measured in the exact same way, it's not 144,000, that just means ALL of New Jerusalem, the actual old measurements used would come to about 1380 square miles, but I think it just a metaphoric number, just like the 12 tribes.

We can see via where Rev. 7 is at what its purpose is, what God is doing here, this is a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation, Jesus in chapter 1 is the FIRST & LAST (Things you have seen), the Churches represent the entire Church Age (Things which are) and everything from Rev. 4:1 on are the (HEREAFTER). Thus we see the Church in Heaven in Rev. 4 and 5 as Jesus is about to open the Seals and Prophesy about what is about to befall mankind on Earth. Then in Rev. 6, we see Jesus opening those Seals and "PROPHESYING" what the coming Wrath of God WILL BRING when the First Judgment Trumpet is sounded. That brings us to Rev. 7 of course, what happens at the 1290 which happens 30 days BEFORE the 1260 Conquering of Jerusalem? The Jews FLEE Judea at the 1290m AoD as Jesus WARNED them they must, he said flee unto the Mountains (Petra/Bozrah) at that time.

So, the 144,000 (3-5 million Jews who repent, see Zechariah 13:8-9 where the 1/3 REPENT) are Fleeing right before the Judgments STRIKE EARTH and we know this by the verbiage that is used in Rev. 7, the Angels are told to hold up the four winds (Gods power) and to HURT NOT............The Earth, Sea nor Trees........... until the 144,000 are SEALED (Protected) in the head. So, we all know what hurts the Earth Sea, and Trees, we can see it in Rev. 8, it is the Trumpet Judgments that hurt the Earth, Sea and, Trees. That is as plain as day, so the Jews are fleeing Judea here in between Jesus opening the Seals, which seems to be around the time of the 1290, thus we see the Jews fleeing in Rev. 7 just before the Asteroid Strikes earth in Rev. 8, which is, of course, the 1260 Day of the Lord Event, the one in which the Anti-Christ piggybacks as per the timing of events.

The Great Multitude as seen in Rev. 7:9-17 has nothing to do with the 70th-week tribulation, which is a misunderstanding by men who can't seem to allow God to describe two different measurements with the word GREAT.....our wise men from earth...... have created a word "GREAT TRIBULATION" which can only mean GREAT in severity, we refuse to allow God to use the word GREAT with the length of time He is describing through John His servant. We know these Saints seen in Rev. 7 CAN NOT be from the 70th week tribulation period via the same book of Revelation, yet people persist with the narrative because that is what they always BELIEVED it to mean. (LOL) Thus we get the same mistakes made over and over.

In the 5th Seal, the Martyrs are told SPECIFICALLY, that they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, thus this is Jesus saying to all the Martyrs of the 70th week, hey, you have to wait on the Beasts 42-month rule to end before yu re avenged. That, quite simply, is exactly what Jesus said there, yet those in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the "GREAT TRIBULATION" even though Jesus just made an emphatic statement that disproves that type of thinking. We also see SPECIFIC WORDS in Rev. 20:4 that shows us, NO MAN from the 70th week tribulation period is RAISED UP unto Heaven at that time, because they are all Judged in the Rev. 20:4 Judgment, AFTER Jesus' Return !! So, how are they seen in Rev. 7:9-17? The answer, THEY AREN'T. That is just an Answer by the Mid and Post tribulation guys who are defeated with any other answer !! Because any other answer leaves for ONLY a Pre Trib Rapture. So, Jesus told us no one from the 70th week goes to Heaven, they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers die in like manner as they did. Yet we have people who actually say, oh, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the 70th Week Tribulation Saints. No, they are the Church Age Tribulation Saints. The Church Age was of course Tribulation, and it was a 2000 some odd year period of time, which makes it MUCH GREATER in length/time than the 70th week period of 7 years or the 3.5 year period, thus God described it as GREAT because 2000 is GREATER than 7 or 3.5. Let's stop pigeonholing God because it only leads to us misunderstanding God's Holy Word, and thus Satan succeeds in his CONFUSION OF THE MASSES.

2000>7. It's that simple. Those seen in Rv. 7:9-17 came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION Church Age Period where millions were murdered and built the Church with their blood. The Martyrs of the 70th week will be Judged and raised up after the Second Coming, see Rev. 20:4 and the 5th Seal proves that via Jesus' own words. Mid and Post Trib just accept the BOOM and move on.

P.S. there never were any LOST TRIBES..........PERIOD. They each had SEED living in Jerusalem when the ten tribes were toted off.

The future Antichrist will be revealed and given power for 42 months, the two Witnesses will stand before this man bringing all plagues as they will, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Its gonna be a Jesus Christ controlled 3.5 year tribulation, as the sealed church is protected.

The tribulation will end in the second coming, resurrection of all, and catching up of the living believers, as this earth is dissolved by the Lords fire in judgement (The End)

 

[Rondonmon]

Chapters Eight
The Seventh Seal and The Seven Trumpets

I. The Background of the Seven Trumpets, 1-6
It is important to remember that what is revealed in chapters seven, eight, and nine are all part of the same scene of chapter 6 in the opening of the seals. The opening of the seals in chapter six is a pronouncement of judgment. The object of that judgment is Jerusalem and the Jewish state. They are the persecuting powers at that time, and the sounding of the seven trumpets signaled the end of Jerusalem, the temple, and the Jewish state. God is about to destroy their world.

The 7th Seal is opened by Jesus, now and ONLY NOW can't the scroll of Judgments be reed from. Thus Judgment has come, thus nothing is said here like after the first six seals. The First Four Trumpet Judgments are all one event, an Asteroid Strike on earth.

1.) Trumpet #1 is the fire coming in ahead of the asteroid, as is a known fact.
2.) Trumpet #2 is the asteroid strike itself, the impact, or Mountain cast in the Sea.
3.) Trumpet #3 is the same asteroid impact, but the STORY is different God speaks of POISON (Wormwood) via Nuclear Fallout.
4.) Trumpet #4 is the Sun and Moon being DARKENED by the smoke from all the burning trees/grasses and the debries. (Joel 2:31)

Then Rev. 8:13 makes understanding the rest of the Trump Judgments easy. Te Angel says the last three Trumps which are yet to sound are the THREE WOES yet to come. So, Trump #5 is the First Woe, Trump #6 is the Second Woe and Trump #7 is the Third Woe. It can't get any easier than that can it? Yet we have people who refuse to understand that the Rev. 11 Trump is also shown in Rev. 16 via the 7 Vials because the 7 Vials in full are the 3rd Woe, and thus the 7th Trump sounding brings forth the 3rd Woe.

 

[Rondonmon]

The future Antichrist will be revealed and given power for 42 months, the two Witnesses will stand before this man bringing all plagues as they will, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Its gonna be a Jesus Christ controlled 3.5 year tribulation, as the sealed church is protected.

The tribulation will end in the second coming, resurrection of all, and catching up of the living believers, as this earth is dissolved by the Lords fire in judgement (The End)

You truly do not understand Eschatology at all my friend, stick to something else, you are not called to this. You can't make an argument against anything I say. So, you just put out your own statement which has nothing to do with my post.