Resurrection

[Noose]

1. Jesus never ever legitimized false teachings or false traditions.

2. Jesus never spoke of the baptism of (or for) the dead.

3. No one can be baptized for someone else, and salvation is never by proxy.

Where do people get this idea that baptism for the dead is a false tradition? Nowhere in the bible does anyone say it is a false tradition. Paul affirms the underlying belief as being correct in the middle of his resurrection teaching. Unless Paul was not inspired.

1 Cor 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

 

[Noose]

Noose, while it is true that the death of His saints are precious in God's sight, it does not nullify the other scriptures which proclaim that the living will be changed/transformed and caught up. You can't deny the scriptures clear meaning below:

Off topic but only just, nevertheless:

1. Death of the saints being precious to God is not the only verse that is against rapture. It affirms many other verses.

Isa 57:
1The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.

2Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.

This verse confirms the correct meaning of Jesus' saying, ".. the days of the elect shall be shortened on this earth..."

Rev 14:14-20 Says a sharp sickle is used to harvest the earth, both good and bad. Sharp things usually cause pain and are deadly

And Jesus, who supposedly meets people in the air, prays against such thoughts:

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Concerning this prayer and from Isa 57 above, we already know how the righteous are protected from evil, they are taken out through a painful process called death.

2. There seem to be no prophet of the old who saw and prophesied this rapture thing, but almost all saw resurrection. But where do the resurrected go?

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

The resurrected here seem to be protected at the place where the wrath of God is going to pass. That place is not the air or heaven but right here on this earth.

 

[JamOn]

Where do people get this idea that baptism for the dead is a false tradition? Nowhere in the bible does anyone say it is a false tradition. Paul affirms the underlying belief as being correct in the middle of his resurrection teaching. Unless Paul was not inspired.

1 Cor 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

Interesting how Paul says if there is no resurrection, he knows of coarse there will be, so why are people being baptized, is it similar to let the dead bury the dead.

 

[JamOn]

people who dunk others is nothing but a public spectacle.

 

[Noose]

"Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

"But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. (NTL)

Notice that it mentions both the dead and living in Christ, saying "We shall not all die, but will be transformed." Those who have died up to that point will be resurrected and those who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them.

1. Why superimpose a 2000 year duration on to the scriptures? Your 2 millennia basis of understanding is creating a pseudo-reality over the truth which the scripture was supposed to create in you.

Paul being miles away, is communicating by the way of letters to Corinthians and Thessalonians and other groups in the 1st/2nd century. The recipients of these letters, read them as they were and as they were intended by the author and perceiving them as being directed to them because the letter was sent to them.

So, when Paul says "..we shall not all sleep but we shall be transformed in the twinkling of a eye..", the recipients read and believed that some within them will not sleep but be transformed just as Paul had intended. None of them thought this was never meant for them.
What you now need to do is study what it meant some were to sleep and others transformed.

2. Your last day is not my last day and the trumps are just symbolic markers of what must happen in time. It is not possible for a believer to sleep today, aren't you aware that Christ is the resurrection and life? meaning that death can not overcome you but you overcome death just like Christ did. This is how it works; death is death because it overcomes life even if it is just for a millisecond but life eternal is not overcome by death. This why Paul says we are transformed rather than sleeping, we transition from this life to another.

John 11:25Jesus said to her,“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

3. The application of these teaching (Resurrection) by Paul and others shows something different:

1 Thess 4:
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13And in keeping with what is written: “I believed, therefore I have spoken,”c we who have the same spirit of faith also believe and therefore speak, 14knowing that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in His presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is extending to more and more people may overflow in thanksgiving, to the glory of God.


At one point, Paul counts himself amongst the alive that are being caught up with the dead and in another place amongst the dead that are raised and presented together with his living listeners. This clearly shows that it is a continuous process starting at some point, 2 millennia ago.

 

[garee]

Bible prophecy seems to place us in an unattainable position and in the natural this is


Ref: Mark 9:4 Reading this scripture does it appear to you that Elijah or Moses where in need of resurrection? One thing that has all ways been puzzling to me is how did the disciples know it was Elijah and Moses. Anyway the traditional teaching of the resurrection which states that we rise from the ground (that is if we are dead at the time) with a new body implies that the soul and spirit have no identity. Then most troubling of all concerns the the book of Her: chapter 11 and 12. In chapter 11 in goes into detail about the persecution and martyrdom of the Gods patriarchs. Then comes this "And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith received NOT the promise. God having provided some better thing concerning US that apart from us they should NOT be made PERFECT.
Chap: 12:1 Therefore let US seeing that WE are compassed about with so great a CLOUD OF WITNESSES ........ who are these in this gathering that surrounds us. Are they people who need resurrection? Interesting

Mark 9 as to the reason why he gave the "vision" is not reincarnation or a future hope of meeting those. It followed the discussion previously . Many cherry pick and try and make it into a way of confirming something not there the vision followed Mark 8:38.

The disciples did not recognize Moses and Elijah as part of the vision of things not there things God brought into their fleshly mind. he identified who they were, No picture ID's . No DNA

He was protecting the integrity of His word he said: Who ever is ashamed of me and of my words.(the two witnesses ) . . and then he walked them through the vision . He was not promoting corrupted flesh. .

The cloud of witness is not flesh and blood but the unseen work of God that worked in those saints to both will and do the good pleasure of our unseen God.

We do not walk after the temporal things seen

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels .Mark 8:38.

They were not reincarnated. It was prophecy as a vision . Moses and Elijah as two witnesses represent all things written in the law and the prophets in that parable .

The two witnesses that are killed made to no effect in Revelation

Moses's corrupted body as well a Elijah were long gone having returned to the dust it was taken from . Their new born again Spirit of Christ. . . which if any man has not they do not belong to God. It arose with the ten thousands of thousands of other old testament saints when Jesus said it is finished .

What our new bodies will be no one knowns. male not female, Jew or gentile . Moses and Elijah name will not be remembered or ever come to mind in the new order.

Again the wage of sin was not partial the whole body and soul die never to rise to new spiritual life (no spirit)

Acts 28:22-24 King James Version (KJV) But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against. And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Anytime a person saw the two witnesses. . law and prophets. . . Moses and Elijah together. We can know he is protecting the integrity of the word .A warning in respect to those who go above it or add to it with a oral tradition of men. ( ashamed of me and of my words" (sign gifts)

 

[garee]

I know there's a lot of weird teachings about baptism and weird symbols that come with these teachings.
The baptism for the dead that Paul mentions, has nothing to do with touching a dead body but it concerned the living. A good example of such a baptism is the one Catholics do to children; they baptize children and give them names of saints believing that these saints will actually guide the living.

The baptism for the dead is salvation. The hearing of faith. Baptized in the authority (name)of one not seen the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God. . Water baptism has a entirely different purpose (cerinimoinal.)

 

[Dino246]

No.
Rapture/miraculous flying off without dying does not occur because precious in the sight of God is the death of His saints. The gift of healing too ceased because of the same and because God guides His people from evil through death.

Your willingness to build an entire belief system on one verse is amazing. It would be good if you understood the verse first though.

 

[Noose]

Your willingness to build an entire belief system on one verse is amazing. It would be good if you understood the verse first though.

Not one verse, i think i have explained myself in post#42


Rapture however is a great misunderstanding coming from one one phrase, "..caught in the air.."

 

[Dino246]

Not one verse, i think i have explained myself in post#42

Rapture however is a great misunderstanding coming from one one phrase, "..caught in the air.."

Post 42 addresses your disbelief in the rapture. I don't have a horse in that race. My comment addresses your misuse of Psalm 116:15.

Quite simply, the verse does not invalidate either healing or raising of the dead back to this life. If it did, then God would not have healed Peter's mother-in-law or the beggar at the gate, listed healing as a spiritual gift, or raised Lazarus, the widow's son, and Eutychus. Quite simply, you've misinterpreted and grossly misapplied the verse.

 

[JohnRH]

Question: The resurrection as taught by Paul, is it an event or is it a process ?

An event.

 

[Noose]

Post 42 addresses your disbelief in the rapture. I don't have a horse in that race. My comment addresses your misuse of Psalm 116:15.

Quite simply, the verse does not invalidate ...... raising of the dead back to this life.

I have never said Psalm 116:15 invalidates resurrection.

 

[PERFECTION]

There is no need to respond, because you can't refute the scriptures that I've already provided.

its not a matter of refuting, its a matter of me accepting your interpretation of these scriptures. Nevertheless I have really enjoyed our conversation.

 

[Noose]

its not a matter of refuting, its a matter of me accepting your interpretation of these scriptures. Nevertheless I have really enjoyed our conversation.

That was directed at me, so don't be mad with him. You'll soon learn how it works; replies in CC

 

[JamOn]

Mark 9 as to the reason why he gave the "vision" is not reincarnation or a future hope of meeting those. It followed the discussion previously . Many cherry pick and try and make it into a way of confirming something not there the vision followed Mark 8:38.

The disciples did not recognize Moses and Elijah as part of the vision of things not there things God brought into their fleshly mind. he identified who they were, No picture ID's . No DNA

He was protecting the integrity of His word he said: Who ever is ashamed of me and of my words.(the two witnesses ) . . and then he walked them through the vision . He was not promoting corrupted flesh. .

The cloud of witness is not flesh and blood but the unseen work of God that worked in those saints to both will and do the good pleasure of our unseen God.

We do not walk after the temporal things seen

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels .Mark 8:38.

They were not reincarnated. It was prophecy as a vision . Moses and Elijah as two witnesses represent all things written in the law and the prophets in that parable .

The two witnesses that are killed made to no effect in Revelation

Moses's corrupted body as well a Elijah were long gone having returned to the dust it was taken from .

Their new born again Spirit of Christ. . . which if any man has not they do not belong to God. It arose with the ten thousands of thousands of other old testament saints when Jesus said it is finished .

What our new bodies will be no one knowns. male not female, Jew or gentile . Moses and Elijah name will not be remembered or ever come to mind in the new order.

Again the wage of sin was not partial the whole body and soul die never to rise to new spiritual life (no spirit)

Acts 28:22-24 King James Version (KJV) But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against. And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Anytime a person saw the two witnesses. . law and prophets. . . Moses and Elijah together. We can know he is protecting the integrity of the word .A warning in respect to those who go above it or add to it with a oral tradition of men. ( ashamed of me and of my words" (sign gifts)

Elijah returned to dust interesting haven’t read that in the Bible.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No, Am not. I’m speaking about resurrection life.

Well, the resurrection is not a process. When the Lord appears the church, dead and living, will be caught up all at once. It's not a process that we can walk, it's an immediate change from mortal to immortal. We cannot walk in it, because it is a group event which will take place at the appearing of the Lord.

 

[garee]

2. Your last day is not my last day and the trumps are just symbolic markers of what must happen in time. It is not possible for a believer to sleep today, aren't you aware that Christ is the resurrection and life? meaning that death can not overcome you but you overcome death just like Christ did. This is how it works; death is death because it overcomes life even if it is just for a millisecond but life eternal is not overcome by death. This why Paul says we are transformed rather than sleeping, we transition from this life to another.

John 11:25Jesus said to her,“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Hi I would offer another view.

The Amil position, which the Reformers used, seems to work out the best (no literal thousand years) according to the signified language of Revelation. I wonder when did the word thousand lose its influence it had to represent a unknown as it is throughout in various parables?

That parable in chapter 20 is loaded with metaphors . We do not wrestle against flesh and blood. "the things seen" chains, dragons head less souls, literal years etc.The foundation of Paganism called "walking by sight" you could say as sign seekers.. But do by faith unseen the Spirit of Christ.

The faithless Jew that were used to represent faithless mankind would challenge Jesus whenever they understood not a parable .he then would bring a parable against them as a sign that made them moved. Working out all good things according to His holy will.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

The prescription given in 2 Corinthians 4:18 must be applied when studying to show ourselves approved of him .the witness of His Spirit. or the unseen understanding will I beleive will be lost to literalism. There must be some balance or direction? Perhaps that is what he meant when he said; without parables he spoke not.

It would seem to not promote faith the unseen eternal spirit that works in us of Him. . but walking more by sight. I think it is one of the reasons he spoke in parables in order toteach us how to walk by faith. The mystery of His faith that does work in us.. We must be careful how we hear not only what. He gives that understanding to His disciples

The last trump is the last day as one work in the twinkling of the eye.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes 6 times in John the Holy Spirit uses the phrase "last day" One day.. not days plural or split up .The day that the letter of the law (death) is cast in the lake never to rise to condemn a whole creation ever more. The same last day we receive or new bodies . The twinkling of the eye or Let there be and he saw it was good forever..

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

One thing I have noticed is the fact that men are born dead having no faith, not little. None by which they could know our living God..

God must do the first work give us life so with that new life we can continue to believe. The dead will not come into another judgment They have been found guilty having "not believed" (no faith) .As soon as they are born they go forth telling lies not knowing the law of God thou shall surely die.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Born without faith. A man must be given the faith of Christ to be born again . the flesh profits for nothing.

 

[superMan9]

Question: The resurrection as taught by Paul, is it an event or is it a process ?

If Paul taught what Jesus taught it's both. Let's face it SANCTIFICATION is an on going Process that CHANGES US. Changes us how? To Perfection (Maturing believers to be more like Christ) and Holiness (Sanctification) which God Himself commandeers and this is a Spiritual resurrection, dead now ALIVE! We know it as Baptism by Fire administrated by the Holy Spirit. This is were the 'old man dies and the new creature in Christ is quickened or is resurrected by the indwelling of Ruach or the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit). The other suggest AN APPEARING, which Paul emphasized in many of his letters to Christians, that will happen in a split second or as Paul communicates "a blink of an eye" will be an EVENT. Depending on the context and it's narration it's both. Blessings

 

[Ahwatukee]

We follow the example of Jesus:

Matt 27:50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

1. Jesus resurrected immediately after dying and no one saw because it is a spiritual happening rather than a physical one

That is not true and calls into question your faith. If you knew what the meaning of resurrection is you wouldn't be claiming that the Lord rose spiritually. The word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" has to do with the physical body and comes from two words

ana = up again and histemi = to stand, properly to "stand up again in a physical body

You are also ignoring scripture because it states that Jesus resurrection on the third day. When died on the cross, His spirit, along with the man next him, went to Sheol/Hades to that place of paradise where Abraham and Lazarus were as revealed in the event of the rich man and Lazarus. According to the scriptures three days later Jesus returned to His body and He stood up again, His body now being immortal and glorified, which is the same thing that is going to have to all who believe in Him.

To be clear, if a true believe died and the next day the Lord appeared to gather His church, the relatives of that man would not find His body in the morgue and because he would have been resurrected.

As previously stated, when Jesus appeared to His disciples behind locked doors they thought like you, that He was a spirit. To prove to them that it was He himself in the flesh he showed them the nail marks in His hands and feet and said, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have." That's is what a resurrection is.

In addition, when a believer dies and their spirit departs from the bodies to go and be in the presence of the Lord, that is not a resurrection. It is not until they return to their bodies that it is a resurrection.

2. Yes it can happen that people see a resurrected body/spiritual body, example: Jesus after resurrection or the OT saints that appeared but this is a spiritual appearance. It plays in the mind of the witnesses as if a vision (my opinion). So no flesh and bones, these must pass away because they are the works of this earth.

Scripture would disagree with you:

 

[PERFECTION]

An event with Jesus raised from death, along with saints when the skies darkened if my memory is correct.

But resurrection life is a process in us that by faith we can walk in. It took way too many years for me to see this but the power of this life never diminishes. Few partake.

Thank You: I,like you, struggled many years with tradition before desperation left me weak enough to hear His voice.