Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Inquisitor]

I asked you how you are saved and you replied.
Through the Regeneration of the heart...

Well that is not true.

John 3:15
So that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did the verse say never believe?
Not add the word never in the verse

It's really difficult to try to have a discussion when they seem to be deliberately not cooperating.

The words "have not believed" in both verses (Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12) MEAN "have NEVER believed".

I gave you an example. Since you disagree with my explanation, please give ME an example that shows how "have NOT ______" means "no longer _______".

I DARE you to do that.

Both verses describe people who 'have not believed'. That means they NEVER believed.

If someone has EVER believed, you CANNOT say they "no longer believe". That's totally different.

The real problem here is that you are finally realizing that you are in a very tight corner and you can't get out.

So you just make up the nonsense that the verses describe people who "no longer believe", when they DON'T SAY or MEAN that at all.

Both verses MEAN the people NEVER believed.

So these 2 verses REFUTE and DESTROY your opinion about those who cease to believe cease to be saved.

In fact, these 2 verses mean the SAME THING that Jesus said in John 10:28.

iow, when a person believes, they possess eternal life and shall never perish. But you don't accept this biblical truth.

The verses are very clear and straightforward.

You are in the SAME condition as those in the Bible who REFUSED to believe.

Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

This is what you are doing. I am giving you very clear Scripture and you are refusing to believe the truth.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, it seems rather logical that those who "REFUSE TO BELIEVE" what Jesus said in very plain words would be in jeopardy of losing their own salvation.

Think about it. Deeply.

 

[Jackson123]

It's really difficult to try to have a discussion when they seem to be deliberately not cooperating.

The words "have not believed" in both verses (Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12) MEAN "have NEVER believed".

I gave you an example. Since you disagree with my explanation, please give ME an example that shows how "have NOT ______" means "no longer _______".

I DARE you to do that.

Both verses describe people who 'have not believed'. That means they NEVER believed.

If someone has EVER believed, you CANNOT say they "no longer believe". That's totally different.

The real problem here is that you are finally realizing that you are in a very tight corner and you can't get out.

So you just make up the nonsense that the verses describe people who "no longer believe", when they DON'T SAY or MEAN that at all.

Both verses MEAN the people NEVER believed.

So these 2 verses REFUTE and DESTROY your opinion about those who cease to believe cease to be saved.

In fact, these 2 verses mean the SAME THING that Jesus said in John 10:28.

iow, when a person believes, they possess eternal life and shall never perish. But you don't accept this biblical truth.

The verses are very clear and straightforward.

You are in the SAME condition as those in the Bible who REFUSED to believe.

Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

This is what you are doing. I am giving you very clear Scripture and you are refusing to believe the truth.

Since you believe that salvation can be lost, it seems rather logical that those who "REFUSE TO BELIEVE" what Jesus said in very plain words would be in jeopardy of losing their own salvation.

Think about it. Deeply.

Heb 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

After accept Jesus back to sin/biggest sin is unbelieve than no forgiveness or lost your salvation

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It's really difficult to try to have a discussion when they seem to be deliberately not cooperating.

The words "have not believed" in both verses (Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12) MEAN "have NEVER believed".

I gave you an example. Since you disagree with my explanation, please give ME an example that shows how "have NOT ______" means "no longer _______".

I DARE you to do that.

Both verses describe people who 'have not believed'. That means they NEVER believed.

Heb 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Did you read ANY of the context for v.26? Seems you didn't.

Heb 10-

The subject of this chapter is Christ's sacrifice once for all. After developing the truth that Christ died for all sins, the writer wrote this:

v.18 - And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

This verse relates directly to v.26. However, in v.19-end of chapter, the subject changes to a call to persevere in the faith.

So v.26 says that those who "go on sinning deliberately" can't use the OT sacrificial system for their deliberate sins. So, what's left? No, not loss of salvation.

v.27 - but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

I know you will insist that the "raging fire" equals hell. But the verse clearly speaks of God's judgment of discipline. God spanks His children. He doesn't kill them, as you would hope.

The "raging fire that consumes the enemies" is a direct reference to God's discipline that results in physical death, and don't expect a painless one either.

1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (euphemism for physical death).

Paul wrote this regarding all the abuse of the Lord's Table in the Corinthian church. Notice the progression: weakness, sickness, and finally, physical death.

So, don't kid yourself; believers who are disobedient/unfaithful will suffer for it during this life. Even though you may not see it in their face, and it isn't ours to judge anyway, there is no doubt they will suffer. The Bible says so. And I've shown you verses.

After accept Jesus back to sin/biggest sin is unbelieve than no forgiveness or lost your salvation

I'm tired of seeing your opinion without any evidence from Scripture.

I've given you PLENTY of verses that say exactly what I believe. Which you REFUSE TO BELIEVE.

 

[Jackson123]

So v.26 says that those who "go on sinning deliberately" can't use the OT sacrificial system for their deliberate sins. So, what's left? No, not loss of salvation.

You add the word OTsystem this is ilegal

 

[Jackson123]

So v.26 says that those who "go on sinning deliberately" can't use the OT sacrificial system for their deliberate sins. So, what's left? No, not loss of salvation.

Even you not sin anymore you can't use OT system, we are in NT now

 

[Phoneman-777]

One set of laws are from the old covenant and the other set are from the new covenant. One set you need to memorize. The other set are delivered through the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant which I will make with them After those days, declares the Lord: I will put My laws upon their hearts, And write them on their mind.

Which set of commandments has God written in our hearts?

Remember that this promise was made for a future era, a different covenant, based on a covenant of divine blood.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

What else would Christ write into our hearts.

Thou shall not covet your neighbors oxen?

You have got to be kidding.

You are under grace or you are under the written law, you can't be under both.

Yes, I've heard over and over that "the Two New replace the Old Ten". Except the Two New are right there in the OT.

People who say with such high-sounding, almost indignant santimonism, "We don't need the Old Ten because we have the New Two" say it with such conviction and sincerely that you know they aren't kidding...but you wish they were. Can you really "love thy neighbor" if you're stealing from him or sleeping with his wife?

The fact of the matter is that nobody has a problem with Nine Commandments because they don't want anyone stealing from them or murdering their loved ones, etc., but because they want to rebel against the 4th commandment, they invent "reasons" for why we're simultaneously not obligated to keep the Old Ten but we're not at liberty to break any of them.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Well that's absolutely true. Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we would walk in darkness..without the commands of Jesus Christ...we would have no one to call Lord.
Why do you see what I say...as apart from Christ?

Without it we're in darkness, but with it we can do "all things" which includes keeping the Ten Commandments. You can't turn your head without seeing an indecently dressed flirt everywhere, on the TV, the billboards, walking down the street. There are a platoon of prostitutes that walk up and down the street and in front of my company - sometimes if you're not watching, they'll walk right in front of you as you drive in...but despite all this, I go home to my wife everyday.

I totally agree...but how does this regeneration take place?
Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Philippians 2:12)

Simple: "Not my will, but Thine be done."

If all the talk we hear about "believing" and "having faith" and "trusting Jesus" doesn't boil down to a total surrender of the heart to Him as BOTH our Savior from sin AND our Lord to Whom we render "reasonable service", then all that is just empty talk which will lead to an empty seat in the courts of heaven.

 

[Phoneman-777]

OK, let's look at the verse:
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

There IS NOT 7 year tribulation! 2 Peter 3 says when Jesus comes as a thief, there won't be 7 more minutes down here, much less 7 more years! The 70 Weeks of Daniel expired right on time 490 years after the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C.

Jesus' baptism in 27 A.D. was at the end of the 69 Weeks and the 70th Week began with the commencement of His public ministry.

He preached 3 1/2 years and was "cut off" which was "after (seven weeks and) three score and two weeks" in the midst of that 70th Week in 31 A.D.

After His ascension, He continued to "confirm the covenant" of grace through "(the disciples) that heard Him" (Hebrews 2:3 KJV) and in 34 A.D. with the stoning of Stephen, Saul got on his horse headed for Damascus and was struck down by Jesus, renamed him Paul, and told him to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, thus ending the 70 Weeks prophecy.

Oh, but you say "He didn't make an end of sins, he didn't bring in everlasting righteousness, etc." To that, Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world".

He make and end of sins in the lives of those who love Him, did He not?
He brought in everlasting righteousness in the lives of those who love Him, did He not?
You of the OSAS crowd ought to be the FIRST ones to claim you've been made righteous forever more by grace, as well as being "more than conquerors" when it comes to sin, right or wrong?

 

[Phoneman-777]

They don't need to be "qualified" by anything. They are straightforward words. And I don't use Jn 6:39 with 10:28, but 5:24, which states very clearly WHEN a person is given eternal life; which is when they become believers. You cannot explain what Jesus was meaning in either verse, or you would have by now.

What about the Unmerciful Servant who was forgiven but later condemned?

What about the repentant saints who "fall away" into perpetual impenitence?

What about the "escaped" saints who become again tangled in the filth of the world?

What about saint Paul's fear of becoming a "castaway" -- because of a lighter crown? No! Because Paul knew David said "cast me not away...take not Thy Holy Spirit from me" and Paul himself wrote, "If any man hath not the Spirit of God, he is none of His". Saint Paul feared the possibility of being lost.

What about the saints who willfully sin after receiving (not just hearers, but receivers) a knowledge of the truth, to whom "there is no more sacrifice for sin"?

You are just sooooooo wrong. Jn 5:24 and 10:28 destroys your presumption. None of the verses you think teach conditional salvation, or more plainly, loss of salvation, aren't at all clear. Nothing like Jn 5:24 and 10:28, which are as plain as can be.

Correction: none of your verses teach OSAS because there are too many verses that qualify God's promises as conditional.

Oh, grow up. Transference is what you do.

I prefer to hold my critics' feet to the fire and make them defend their accusations, plain and simple.

 

[kleronomos]

hmm i read John 15 and it seems closer to the truth to say He has invited us into His heart
i don't see "invite Him into your heart" there but i see,

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. ​

(John 15:16)​

​

If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. ​

(John 15:19) ​

​

it says we did not choose Him -- we did not invite Him
but He chose us -- He invited us, and brought us into Him, out of the world.
He says keep His command, and says His command is to love one another.
it says He took us and put us into His heart, and He says, stay there - stay in His heart

as you say, amen, endure in this faith; believe Him, even to the end

if He chose me to bear fruit, i know i will bear fruit.
i am not afraid, because i trust Him, and i know He cannot fail

What does this mean in relation to the above?

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, I've heard over and over that "the Two New replace the Old Ten". Except the Two New are right there in the OT.

People who say with such high-sounding, almost indignant santimonism, "We don't need the Old Ten because we have the New Two" say it with such conviction and sincerely that you know they aren't kidding...but you wish they were. Can you really "love thy neighbor" if you're stealing from him or sleeping with his wife?

The fact of the matter is that nobody has a problem with Nine Commandments because they don't want anyone stealing from them or murdering their loved ones, etc., but because they want to rebel against the 4th commandment, they invent "reasons" for why we're simultaneously not obligated to keep the Old Ten but we're not at liberty to break any of them.

Friend I think you want to keep sabbath like OT isn't it?
Jesus is our sabbath so as long as you accept Jesus and keep Him in your heart, you do sabbath
You may not work on Saturday but our mind still think a lot of thing what good is that
We not doing animal sacrifice anymore jesus replace it
We not doing sabbath like OT because Jesus replace it

 

[Phoneman-777]

Maybe you aren't aware of the KISS principle. It means Keep It Simple, Stupid.

You violate that principle by taking much less clear verses and try to "explain" or "clarify" what MUCH MORE clear verses say.

So you have it exactly backwards.

In John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

The ONLY thing that needs to be clarified in this verse is WHEN a person becomes a recipient.

That is found in John 5:24. Jesus said believers POSSESS eternal life.

So, a person becomes a recipient of eternal life WHEN they become a believer.

It couldn't be more clear.

That is why I always use John 5:24 and John 10:28 together. 5:24 informs WHEN a person becomes a recipient of eternal life.

The KISS principle.

I've heard of KISS a long time ago. It's derived from Thoreau's "simplify, simplify".

However, when it comes to Scripture, we ought say KISS, too: KEEP IT SCRIPTURAL, STUPID.

We do that by reading "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little", not reading one verse and ignoring all others which have their impact on a subject.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Jesus is our sabbath so as long as you accept Jesus and keep Him in your heart, you do sabbath

Jesus is our reward, so we can now rob banks?
Jesus is our truth, so we can now lie?
Jesus is our faithfulness, so we can now cheat on the wife?
Jesus is our robe of righteousness, so we can now run around naked?

(do I really have to keep this up to prove that just because Jesus is our rest is no excuse to disregard the Sabbath commandment to rest?)

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes, I've heard over and over that "the Two New replace the Old Ten". Except the Two New are right there in the OT.

People who say with such high-sounding, almost indignant santimonism, "We don't need the Old Ten because we have the New Two" say it with such conviction and sincerely that you know they aren't kidding...but you wish they were. Can you really "love thy neighbor" if you're stealing from him or sleeping with his wife?

The fact of the matter is that nobody has a problem with Nine Commandments because they don't want anyone stealing from them or murdering their loved ones, etc., but because they want to rebel against the 4th commandment, they invent "reasons" for why we're simultaneously not obligated to keep the Old Ten but we're not at liberty to break any of them.

Your mistaken again.

Loving others as Christ loved us, is not in the law. You are deeply mistaken. Your confused between self love and divine love.

Further, the commandment to believe in Jesus, is also not listed in the law.

I have a huge problem with anyone pedaling the law.

 

[Jackson123]

do I really have to keep this up to prove that just because Jesus is our rest is no excuse to disregard the Sabbath commandment to rest?)

Brother, you don't need to prove anything but if you have jesus you have a rest.
Not only Saturday but Jesus give you rest in mind every day
Why you do ritual rest like ritual animal sacrifice?
Sabbath law is for OT
Now we have new law, it is emphasize in what in your mind
It was adultery when you have sex with other than your wife
Now Jesus say if you look woman with lust you do commit adultery

We need to have jesus in our heart than we have rest, not physical rest

 

[Goliath]

Well that is not true.

John 3:15
So that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Many believe as you do, the heart has nothing to do with salvation...no matter how many times it's mentioned in the bible.

 

[Goliath]

Goliath, that verse is not talking about regeneration, at least not 'how we are regenerated'. It's the next verse that is closer to explaining how...

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Php 2:12-13)

How does this verse prove what I said is not true? Doesn't the passage still say..."Work out your own salvation?"
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (Romans 2:6-7)
God will repay each person according to what? The reward.... Eternal life...sounds like salvation to me.

. (btw, love your little Goliath, I'd hate to bump into him in a dark alley, lol.)

Yeah that's my rescue beagle...my wife dressed him that way. But she had to take the spiked collar off first..LOL I'm pretty soft hearted when it comes to strays.

 

[Goliath]

Without it we're in darkness, but with it we can do "all things" which includes keeping the Ten Commandments. You can't turn your head without seeing an indecently dressed flirt everywhere, on the TV, the billboards, walking down the street. There are a platoon of prostitutes that walk up and down the street and in front of my company - sometimes if you're not watching, they'll walk right in front of you as you drive in...but despite all this, I go home to my wife everyday.

Have you ever heard the Bill Engvall joke.."Here's your sign"?
God gives us signs, which we ignore and he probably looks at us like.."Really"?
When we begin to see these signs...then we know just how foolish we are to God.
A question you should ask yourself....Is there temptation,...when these girls walk by your place of business?
But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew 5:28)
If there is...it's because the heart has not been changed.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
(Matthew 15:19)
According to Jesus....The temptation....is your sign.

 

[Inquisitor]

Many believe as you do, the heart has nothing to do with salvation...no matter how many times it's mentioned in the bible.

Your talking about the process of sanctification rather than salvation.

We are talking about salvation and how that is a free gift, granted to those that believe in Jesus.

A heart overflowing with the love of the brethren is secondary to Christ's shed blood at Calvary.

We are saved directly as a result of Christ's sacrifice.