Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Goliath]

We believe first in Jesus and we receive the gift of Christ's righteousness, not have no righteousness of our own.

I'll try again...
(John 1:17)....For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Not by Works....?? (Old covenant)
Who did the Works when the Jews were under the Law of Moses,....Was God required do keep his own commandments, or the Children of Israel?
But by Grace...?? (New covenant)
Who does the Works under the Law of Christ....Is God required to keep those two commandments (Love God, Love your neighbor) for us, or are those who say they Believe Jesus is the Author of their Salvation, required to keep those Laws of Righteousness?

Why did Paul teach about Credited Righteousness?
Receiving the commands of Righteousness does not make you righteous.(I will put my commandments in their minds).....Nor does Keeping the Laws of righteousness....make you righteous. (I will write them on their hearts).
When you keep those Laws of Righteousness, when they are written on your heart...they are being credited to you.... as an Act of Righteousness.
Why are these Acts of Righteousness....being credited to us?
Because this is how God changes our hearts...,that which he could not do...under the Law of Moses.
Not by one act, not by two acts, but......by continually doing these Acts of Righteousness. And this is how one is born again. Not by keeping the Law of Moses (Works), but by keeping the Law of Christ (Grace)

And again...
(Romans 2:6-8) God who will render (Credit) to every man according to his deeds:to those who by patient continuance in well doing, seek glory, honor and immortality, eternal life....but to those who are contentious, and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, indignation, wrath, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who does evil, upon the Jew first and also upon the Gentile;but glory, honor and peace to every man who worketh good, (AKA...Acts of righteousness)...

 

[Inquisitor]

I'll try again...
(John 1:17)....For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Not by Works....?? (Old covenant)
Who did the Works when the Jews were under the Law of Moses,....Was God required do keep his own commandments, or the Children of Israel?
But by Grace...?? (New covenant)
Who does the Works under the Law of Christ....Is God required to keep those two commandments (Love God, Love your neighbor) for us, or are those who say they Believe Jesus is the Author of their Salvation, required to keep those Laws of Righteousness?

Why did Paul teach about Credited Righteousness?
Receiving the commands of Righteousness does not make you righteous.(I will put my commandments in their minds).....Nor does Keeping the Laws of righteousness....make you righteous. (I will write them on their hearts).
When you keep those Laws of Righteousness, when they are written on your heart...they are being credited to you.... as an Act of Righteousness.
Why are these Acts of Righteousness....being credited to us?
Because this is how God changes our hearts...,that which he could not do...under the Law of Moses.
Not by one act, not by two acts, but......by continually doing these Acts of Righteousness. And this is how one is born again. Not by keeping the Law of Moses (Works), but by keeping the Law of Christ (Grace)

And again...
(Romans 2:6-8) God who will render (Credit) to every man according to his deeds:to those who by patient continuance in well doing, seek glory, honor and immortality, eternal life....but to those who are contentious, and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, indignation, wrath, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who does evil, upon the Jew first and also upon the Gentile;but glory, honor and peace to every man who worketh good, (AKA...Acts of righteousness)...

Which version of righteousness?

The righteousness of Jesus Christ!

Romans 10:3
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Romans 3:22
It is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction.

Romans 3:25-26
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished, for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:6
just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

You cannot stop reading Romans at chapter two, follow Paul's argument through to chapter ten.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
None of this is relevant to the Scripture at hand.

well, math is relevant to scripture. it always is.

What authority can you cite that makes this claim?

the transitive property is math, and God created math. math is discovered by man, not created by man.

Prove that the gospel message is a math equation.

scripture is full of mathematics and legal principles. if A = B and C = B then A = C.

This isn't math. It's logic. Of course the Bible is "full of logic" because God is perfectly logical.

i have been friends with my brother Jackson for longer than you have been on the forum -- i know this for sure; you are not going to convince him of anything without acknowledging what he says.

He has proven himself NON-convincable. He has seen the truth yet continues to reject it.

he's not crazy, and you're not crazy either -- he has a point & he won't let go of it

Even though I have repeatedly refutes his point.

-- recognize his point and figure out how it meshes with your point.

There is no "meshing" between truth and error.

neither of you are completely wrong.

When he thinks 2 verses, which say the obviously opposite things, it is clear that one view IS completely wrong.

please be brothers instead of enemies, is what i'm really saying =]

I don't consider him an enemy. I do consider him very wrong. Which I've proven to him.

His rejection of truth is truly amazing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

neither would you @FreeGrace2 -- don't you see the same Spirit at work?♥

The Holy Spirit is NEVER contradictory. The Spirit NEVER teaches false doctrine.

Here is the problem:

J123 thinks Matt 24:13 teaches that salvation is accomplished by "enduring to the end" (of one's life). But Jesus didn't add the parenthesis.

John 10:28 teaches that recipients of eteranl life shall never perish. If you don't see a direct conflict between his view of Matt 24;13 and John 10:28, there's nothing more I can do.

J123 won't even explain what he thinks Jn 10:28 teaches. I've asked numerous times.

 

[FreeGrace2]

we're saved unto good works
if we aren't doing any - is He at work in us?

When a believer is grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, is that "working in us"? No, it is not.

Paul also commanded believers to be filled with the Spirit. Can you explain how a believer obeys that command in Eph 5:18?

but Who is the One who is actually able to perceive and judge?

The Lord Jesus Christ.

not i, a mere little fly

I am a mere human, indwelt with the Holy Spirit. When I am in fellowship and filled with the Holy Spirit, He IS working in me.

But when I am not in fellowship, not filled, I am grieving or quenching the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

you need to put another promise Matt 24:13 before make conclusion

I have. But you simply dismiss it.

Jesus was clear in John 5:24, that when a person becomes a believer, they POSSESS eternal life. You have NOT shown He was teaching anything else.
Jesus was clear in John 10;28 that recipients of eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. You have NOT shown He was teaching anytgubg ekse,

Because of these very clear verses, YOUR view of Matt 24:13 CANNOT be about soul salvation. Context shows what "to the end" referes to. The 7 year tribulation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

James 2
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

jame say

I will show my faith by my deed

how ?

Sheep in matt 25 show what faith do or show what faith is

base jame 2:18 it is what faith is

but I think you can say what faith do, not much different

James 2:18 is clearly about how one's faith is demonstrated: by their deeds. It says NOTHING about having no deeds means no salvation.

 

[Jackson123]

James 2:18 is clearly about how one's faith is demonstrated: by their deeds. It says NOTHING about having no deeds means no salvation.

No deed in general mean no faith and no faith mean no salvation

 

[Jackson123]

I have. But you simply dismiss it.

Jesus was clear in John 5:24, that when a person becomes a believer, they POSSESS eternal life. You have NOT shown He was teaching anything else.
Jesus was clear in John 10;28 that recipients of eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. You have NOT shown He was teaching anytgubg ekse,

Because of these very clear verses, YOUR view of Matt 24:13 CANNOT be about soul salvation. Context shows what "to the end" referes to. The 7 year tribulation.

The story is about gt and keeping faith is for all season
7 years gt happen to the whole world, local persecution have been happen on apostle time to now

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
James 2:18 is clearly about how one's faith is demonstrated: by their deeds. It says NOTHING about having no deeds means no salvation.

No deed in general mean no faith and no faith mean no salvation

No. It means the believer is grieving or quenching the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I have. But you simply dismiss it.

Jesus was clear in John 5:24, that when a person becomes a believer, they POSSESS eternal life. You have NOT shown He was teaching anything else.
Jesus was clear in John 10;28 that recipients of eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. You have NOT shown He was teaching anytgubg ekse,

Because of these very clear verses, YOUR view of Matt 24:13 CANNOT be about soul salvation. Context shows what "to the end" referes to. The 7 year tribulation.

The story is about gt and keeping faith is for all season
7 years gt happen to the whole world, local persecution have been happen on apostle time to now

You just did it again. Ignoring the 2 verses that absolutely refute your views, and you fail to address either one.

 

[Jackson123]

FreeGrace2 said:
I have. But you simply dismiss it.

Jesus was clear in John 5:24, that when a person becomes a believer, they POSSESS eternal life. You have NOT shown He was teaching anything else.
Jesus was clear in John 10;28 that recipients of eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. You have NOT shown He was teaching anytgubg ekse,

Because of these very clear verses, YOUR view of Matt 24:13 CANNOT be about soul salvation. Context shows what "to the end" referes to. The 7 year tribulation.

You just did it again. Ignoring the 2 verses that absolutely refute your views, and you fail to address either one.

Jesus God is for all season
so do endure to the end
not twisted to fit your doctrine

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus God is for all season

Merry Christmas!

so do endure to the end
not twisted to fit your doctrine

You are the twister here. Matt 24:13 isn't about soul salvation. If it was, Jesus would have contradicted Himself.

I have invited you to explain what Jesus taught in John 5:24 and 10:28.

 

[Jackson123]

Merry Christmas!


You are the twister here. Matt 24:13 isn't about soul salvation. If it was, Jesus would have contradicted Himself.

I have invited you to explain what Jesus taught in John 5:24 and 10:28.

As long as you twisted Matt 24:13 nothing I can do
let me ask you question

endure from

A from deny because persecution
B not, not endure from deny, explain

 

[Goliath]

Which version of righteousness?

The righteousness of Jesus Christ!

Romans 10:3
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Romans 3:22
It is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction.

Romans 3:25-26
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished, for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:6
just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

You cannot stop reading Romans at chapter two, follow Paul's argument through to chapter ten.

And without context, men can mold these verses to say whatever they want them to say, as you have demonstrated. Brother.....Reconcile your verses with Romans 2, don't ignore them. Put your trust in the salvation teachings of Jesus Christ, the solid ground, not on sand....the teachings of men.

 

[Goliath]

(1 John 5:3) This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome

Why are keeping Gods Commands....not burdensome?
They are not burdensome....because they are kept out of Love...out of Gods....Grace.
What is the most effective way to show someone that God loves them?
Is it saying to those in need...God loves you?
Or by keeping the command God has put into your mind, by taking care of their needs?

When you do what God commands you to do, and it is done out of Love..can you call that a work?
If you see someone in winter who has no coat,...do you find it laborious, to give them one of your many coats to keep them warm? Or do you find Joy in it??
If you do it joyfully...it is a Deed, a Deed which is done out of Gods Grace.

(James 2: 15-17) ....Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, .....what good is it?
In the same way,....faith by itself, ......if it is not accompanied by action.....is dead!!
(Verse 20) Faith....without deeds.....is useless?

Why does brother James say faith, without deeds, is useless?
If we love God and our neighbors our actions are being done out of Grace. If we are saved by Grace, and we have no deeds...there can be no Grace. Our deeds are proof of Grace, proof that we are being saved.
Faith which is being credited as righteousness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As long as you twisted Matt 24:13 nothing I can do

Yes, there is something you can do. You can finally and honestly face John 5:24 and 10:28 and realize that from the MOMENT a person becomes a believer in Christ, they POSSESS eternal life and on THAT basis, shall never perish.

let me ask you question

endure from

A from deny because persecution
B not, not endure from deny, explain

I don't understand B. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, there is something you can do. You can finally and honestly face John 5:24 and 10:28 and realize that from the MOMENT a person becomes a believer in Christ, they POSSESS eternal life and on THAT basis, shall never perish.


I don't understand B. It doesn't make sense.

So you chose A

you have to endure from persecution and not deny Jesus to die like Stephen than your salvation eternal
is that mean you use you own efort

no, Jesus make you strong not you own ability
apart from Me you can do nothing
just like sheep in Matt 25

they not remember feed hungry Jesus because they only bear not produce that agape love

no body strong enough handle persecution without deny,but Jesus in, help to be strong

for example on persecution Stephen saw God on His mighty thrown
if I saw God in His mighty thrown and face ma with love, I want to be there sooner
not deny
God have creative way to strengthening us, not use ours

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, there is something you can do. You can finally and honestly face John 5:24 and 10:28 and realize that from the MOMENT a person becomes a believer in Christ, they POSSESS eternal life and on THAT basis, shall never perish.

I don't understand B. It doesn't make sense.

So you chose A

I didn't choose EITHER ONE. I SAID B wasn't understandable. Can you fix it so that it is understandable?

you have to endure from persecution and not deny Jesus to die like Stephen than your salvation eternal

That is your own choice to deny what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. But you don't believe what Jesus said.

is that mean you use you own efort

It means you are using YOUR own effort.

no, Jesus make you strong not you own ability

Jesus gave a parable in which a person believes for a while and then falls away, due to persecutions/trials/temptations. So then, you must think Jesus wasn't all that interested in that person. Jesus didn't "make" him strong.

apart from Me you can do nothing

Jesus was speaking to His 11 disciples and the subject was about bearing fruit. When a believer is out of fellowship, they CANNOT bear fruit.

no body strong enough handle persecution without deny,but Jesus in, help to be strong

Read Luke 8:13.

God have creative way to strengthening us, not use ours

This is only true for the believer who is abiding in Him. iow, being in fellowship with Him.

But you don't understand what being in fellowship is, or even how to be. Nor do you understand what being filled with the Spirit is or how to be.

How can a Christian grow up spiritually when they don't understand these BASIC truths?

 

[Jackson123]

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, there is something you can do. You can finally and honestly face John 5:24 and 10:28 and realize that from the MOMENT a person becomes a believer in Christ, they POSSESS eternal life and on THAT basis, shall never perish.

I don't understand B. It doesn't make sense.

I didn't choose EITHER ONE. I SAID B wasn't understandable. Can you fix it so that it is understandable?


That is your own choice to deny what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. But you don't believe what Jesus said.


It means you are using YOUR own effort.


Jesus gave a parable in which a person believes for a while and then falls away, due to persecutions/trials/temptations. So then, you must think Jesus wasn't all that interested in that person. Jesus didn't "make" him strong.


Jesus was speaking to His 11 disciples and the subject was about bearing fruit. When a believer is out of fellowship, they CANNOT bear fruit.


Read Luke 8:13.


This is only true for the believer who is abiding in Him. iow, being in fellowship with Him.

But you don't understand what being in fellowship is, or even how to be. Nor do you understand what being filled with the Spirit is or how to be.

How can a Christian grow up spiritually when they don't understand these BASIC truths?

Show me a verse that say you can have faith without fellowship, simple question