Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

Goliath · Jul 12, 2022

Another argument I find to be strange, "We are not under the Law of God".
Why do I find this strange?
Because the same folks who believe they are not under the Law, call themselves sinners.
If Sin is the transgression of the Law, and a person believes they are not under the Law, they can not transgress the Law.
Why?
For if those who are of the law be heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law worketh wrath; for where there is no law, there is no transgression.
(Romans 4:14-15)

Another reason I find the argument strange,
Why would the Holy Spirit convict us of sin...If we were not under Gods Law?
If we were not under the Law, there would be no need for this conviction.
Use your logic folks...

FreeGrace2 · Jul 12, 2022

Jackson123 said:

Finally! Yes. The Bible says so.

If that were true, then there would have been NO NEED for the command. Think about it.

Jesus told His disciples that in order to bear fruit, they must abide in Him. This isn't salvation, because Jesus opened His discussion in John 15 with this:
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

v.3 affirms that the 11 were SAVED already. So everything that follows was directed to SAVED people.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 12, 2022

Runningman said:

Wrong. There are NO WORDS saying that they are given eternal life. v.46 is the key but it seems you refuse to read it. So your ignorance is on you. If you want to know HOW one receives and possesses eternal life, meditate on these clear verses:

John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 57, 1 John 5:13. ALL of them say that believers possess eternal life.

Then, Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

So, Matt 25:46 says "the righteous" will enter heaven. Do you think doing works makes you righteous? That's what the Pharisees thought. And Jesus told them that they would DIE in their sins UNLESS they believed in Him. John 8

No, you need to expand your understanding. There are 2 kinds of justification, which the Bible teaches. Seems you think there is only one.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.

So, what is Paul saying here? Believers need to realize that our lives must be right before the Lord AND before man. That is what James was focused on. James 2:18 summarizes his whole point. In order to demonstrate one's faith to others, they MUST HAVE works.

James was talking about being justified before men, by their works.

James gave an example of how NOT to be justified before men: 2:15,16 That guy was a hypocrite.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 12, 2022

Goliath said:

Not sure what your point is here. But Acts 2:38 was in the earliest days of the development of the church. And the book of Acts shows the reception of the Spirit differed.

However, by the time Paul wrote Galatians, the reception of the Holy Spirit was the SAME for everyone; through belief.

Gal 3:2 and 5 both say the Spirit is received by faith.

And Eph1:13 says the sealing of the Spirit is by faith.

Goliath · Jul 12, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

It is built on faith. But faith is also built on something. And that faith is built upon a relationship with God.

Do you believe Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had faith in God….for no reason?
They didn’t Just read about faith in a book as many like you do. No, They had faith because they did what God commanded them to do, and God did what he promised he would do.

Have you ever read the story of Gideon?
Read it and tell us why he had faith in God.

Jackson123 · Jul 12, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

so all believer have Holy Spirit, but not all believer abide
did Holy Spirit not guide believer to abide?
is possible believer do not have love?

FreeGrace2 · Jul 12, 2022

Goliath said:

Right.

Please stop judging me FALSELY. It's not very becoming.

This is wrong. They had faith because they TRUSTED God. On the basis of their TRUST, they obeyed Him.

They TRUSTED His promise.

He began by not trusting God, due to the enemies' destruction of their land. Then he met an angel and finally realized he was from the lord. He also tested the angel.

Gideon trusted God's promise of the coming Messiah.

So, what is your point?

FreeGrace2 · Jul 12, 2022

Jackson123 said:

That's why Jesus had to explain to His SAVED disciples how to bear fruit.

The Holy Spirit NEVER forces anyone.

Of course. Just look around you.

The fruit of the Spirit in Gal 5:22,23 requires being FILLED with the Spirit. Do you know HOW to be filled? It is a command from Eph 5:18.

Goliath · Jul 12, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

False judgement? Or Simple observation?
You say you have faith, but the only thing which proves your faith, is what you read in the Bible.

If I am wrong, what have you done to show your faith?

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob
and Gideon all did something to show they had faith. We can
see their faith in what they did.

Phoneman-777 · Jul 12, 2022

kleronomos said:

What better way to give an account than what is written?

The 7 Weeks account for the 49 years of "street shall be built, even the walls..."
Then, the 62 Weeks account for the time leading up to the baptism of Jesus which marked the end of the 69 and beginning of the 70th as He walked out the Jordan and began to "confirm the covenant with many for one (70th) Week, first in Person for 3 1/2 years and then the remaining 3 1/2 "through them that heard Him".

Again, there's not a single Numerically Specific Time Prophecy in all the Bible where a "gap" is inserted and the burden is upon the "gap" theory crowd to find precedent for doing so...IT'S NOT THERE.

Phoneman-777 · Jul 12, 2022

kleronomos said:

The gap, in my opinion IS necessary because the 'events' as plainly laid out have not happened yet. I respect your study yet I still must disagree with those conclusions.

And how many are given in 'sections'? Past that, 454BC the commandment goes out, 426BC the decree, Daniels vision and the foundation laid, 405BC temple finished and dedicated 'seven sevens end' , 'sixty -two sevens begin', 4BC the nativity, 29AD 'sixty-nine sevens' end, Messiah cut off, 483 years from going forth of commandment.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

40 years later (probation) 69AD Temple destroyed.
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Obviously, Christ isn't the one who is confirming any covenant for one week because as we just read ' And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself' and the temple destroyed, these are now in the past. Not to mention who would Christ have confirmed a one week covenant with at the beginning of His ministry?

He came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel though His interactions were with the House of Judah mostly. Being cut off but NOT FOR HIMSELF would not follow with HIM being the one to cause the sacrifiece and oblation to cease, and CHRIST would NEVER SPREAD ABOMINATIONS to make it desolate. And what was ever poured out upon the desolate in the 3 1/2 years after His crucifixion?

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Still I don't know if you are saying or are not saying that that Christ cut off and the daily sacrifice and oblation ceasing to be the same event, are you or aren't you? Aren't you or are you not saying that the prophecy goes forth in perfect order but then stops and goes backwards and repeats just one part? Does the temple destruction take place and then there is a covenant for for a week made or not? If so, how do you decide that? Don't you think if GOD gave a vision of Christ being cut off and the temple destroyed that if He showed it to happen WITHIN ONE WEEK that it would have? SO I will respect some of your reasoning but I can not agree and don't think that stating it as TRUTH is...the best course of action. Just my opinion.
Though the prophecy gives the time of the death of Christ, the prophecy was in answer to the prayer for the people and the CITY and was given in 'divisions'. 70 are determined, not 70 in consecutive years determined, that is a determination made by men and it doesn't fit with what is written, again, my opinion. Thank you for the reply, I understand what you are saying and your point of view, just don't agree.

What other Numerically Specific Time Prophecy introduces a "gap" like the one that is supposed to be in Dan 9?

Jackson123 · Jul 12, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

So Holy Spirit guide believer to have love but if believer have hatred still go to heaven and what Jesus mean by fire in John 15 is less reward

why in Matt 25 Jesus promise not helping the poor go to heel
not helping the poor is no love

same problem between john 15 (no fruit/no love) and Matt 25 different punishment

look weir

to me fire in John 15 = Matt 25 = hell

Jackson123 · Jul 12, 2022

Jackson123 said:

So Holy Spirit guide believer to have love but if believer have hatred still go to heaven and what Jesus mean by fire in John 15 is less reward

why in Matt 25 Jesus promise not helping the poor go to heel
not helping the poor is no love

same problem between john 15 (no fruit/no love) and Matt 25 different punishment

look weir

to me fire in John 15 = Matt 25 = hell

Jackson123 · Jul 12, 2022

Matt 7

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

not bear good fruit(no love) cast into fire
seem to me fire mean hell

tree is human
if human not abide to Jesus
, impossible bear good fruit

fruit is agape love

without Jesus impossible bear agape love

than what?

cast into fire

scary, I wish I have power to change that jesus law to make me fell good I interpreted fire mean heaven with no crown
as long as fire mean heaven I don’t mine go there

but seem to me fire is hell

FreeGrace2 · Jul 12, 2022

Goliath said:

You "observed" no such thing.

Not prove, but demonstrate. Which is James' point.

Faith doesn't need to be "proved", or show me a verse that says so. God doesn't need proof. He is omniscient.

I only rob 1 bank a week, I haven't murdered since at least a month ago, I don't drink more than a pint a day, etc, etc, etc.

Just kidding. Did that get your heart rate up a bit?

My, you're the nosy one. I've been a deacon in my church for about 20 years. I've been an adult SS teacher for nearly the same time. My giving is none of your business, but it's way more than 10%.

And just what all does that prove anyway? There's lots of unsaved people doing the same thing in liberal churches that deny much of the Bible.

Exactly James' point in 2:18!

kleronomos · Jul 12, 2022

Phoneman-777 said:

Again, you have the prophecy ending without the events fortold of as happening in them. So yes, you have the 70the week without the events while I have the events future to explain the last week. Your belief fits less than mine in my opinion and mine fits less than yours in your opinion. Hopefully this is very clear to you also. SO with that we have no choice at this point to disagree. WE could both state our cases once again if you think it would help but short of that I think anyone reading this thread knows where we stand. I am good if you are...

FreeGrace2 · Jul 12, 2022

Jackson123 said:

Are you really having this much difficulty in understanding words?

Let's just put Matt 25 to REST, ok? The key verse is v.46.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The term "the righteous" is the key. How does one become "righteous"? Through FAITH. Read Rom 3-4 and you will see clearly that God CREDITS or IMPUTES the righteousness of Christ to believers.

They aren't related at all.

Look WHERE?

Yes, I know that. And you are quite wrong about that. But your ears are quite tightly closed. Your mind has been made up and you don't want the truth (facts), which I've give you in 2 sets of verses. Over and over.

Set 1:
John 3;15,16, 5:24, 6:40,47 and 1 John 5:13 all say clearly that believers possess eternal life.
John 10:28 says clearly that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And you don't believe any of these verses.

Set 2:
Eph 1:13,14 teach that "having believed", the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING their inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 speak of "the promise to come", which is what Eph 1:14 speaks of.

So, 2 sets of verses PROVING that salvation is PERMANENT.

So, ANY claim about how to lose salvation violates the Bible itself. Which is SIN. As one who believes that salvation can be lost, you might want to be quite a bit more careful, since you are PERMANENTLY in SIN by your beliefs.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 12, 2022

Jackson123 said:

In v.16, the "them" in "you shall know THEM by their fruits" refers to evil people.

Bcause you "SEEM" to have great difficulty discerning the truth, since your bias about sin and your failure to understand anything about grace prevents you from discerning the truth.

kleronomos · Jul 12, 2022

Phoneman-777 said:

But the times are sectioned themselves. What for? MAYBE because the kingdom was going to be REJECTED and so it is a part but didn't work out that way...

There must be a reason why they are and so I understand why you say 'they are consecutive' but I don't understand why you are so against them not being consecutive EXPECIALLY with the specific wording of 'after' the 60 and not saying and in the 70th and the 'events' it says will take place not having taken place. And though not 'numeric' there are a few prophecies with 'gaps', whether accepted or not such as

Every one that speaks to the 1st and 2nd Advent such as

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

and where He stopped reading saying 'this day' this is fulfilled.

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

or

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

or

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

So also Christ once having been offered in order of many to bear sins, for A SECOND TIME, apart from sin will appear to those Him awaiting for salvation

We read all those 42 months and 1260 days and they all fit, so is it really so hard to see and put them together?

Jackson123 · Jul 12, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Are you really having this much difficulty in understanding words?

Let's just put Matt 25 to REST, ok? The key verse is v.46.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The term "the righteous" is the key. How does one become "righteous"? Through FAITH. Read Rom 3-4 and you will see clearly that God CREDITS or IMPUTES the righteousness of Christ to believers.

They aren't related at all.

Look WHERE?

Yes, I know that. And you are quite wrong about that. But your ears are quite tightly closed. Your mind has been made up and you don't want the truth (facts), which I've give you in 2 sets of verses. Over and over.

Set 1:
John 3;15,16, 5:24, 6:40,47 and 1 John 5:13 all say clearly that believers possess eternal life.
John 10:28 says clearly that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And you don't believe any of these verses.

Set 2:
Eph 1:13,14 teach that "having believed", the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING their inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 speak of "the promise to come", which is what Eph 1:14 speaks of.

So, 2 sets of verses PROVING that salvation is PERMANENT.

So, ANY claim about how to lose salvation violates the Bible itself. Which is SIN. As one who believes that salvation can be lost, you might want to be quite a bit more careful, since you are PERMANENTLY in SIN by your beliefs.

Can give me a verse that say to go to heaven don’t need love

Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

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