Requirements of Salvation

[Guojing]

Keeping the Law never saved them to begin with. Keeping the Law never saved anyone my friend. What you are asking is a non-sequitur.

And how do you know that? Was it thru the writings of Paul?

Was that known during the earthly ministry of Jesus? Are you saying Exodus 19:4–6 no longer applied to the Jews during the time period of the Gospel of Mark?

 

[crossnote]

Paul stated clearly in Galatians 5:2 that "Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing."

So if you believe that Paul was preaching the same gospel as James, and both Jews and Gentiles are to follow that same gospel, then the point made in Acts 21:21 must be correct

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Obviously James still believed in circumcision having value to the Jews, otherwise, the elders and him would not have mentioned vs21.

This was simply the advice to ‘become all things to all people’ to win some. Read on...

Acts 21:22-26 KJV
[22] What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. [23] Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; [24] Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. [25] As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. [26] Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

 

[Guojing]

The epistle of James is clearly meant to reach Christians.

James 2:1 KJB
"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."

To claim that James taught that Jews were to keep the law is unscriptural and contrary to the the will of God. Of which the Holy Bible is all the inspired words of God (66 books in the KJB). God taught no such thing. God is the author of the Bible, not man.

Did you ever read Acts 21:20-25 to see what James felt about the difference between Jewish and Gentile believers, wrt the Law of Moses?

 

[Guojing]

This was simply the advice to ‘become all things to all people’ to win some. Read on...

Acts 21:22-26 KJV
[22] What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. [23] Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; [24] Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. [25] As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. [26] Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

That was what Paul felt, I agree with you. He wanted to win both Jews and Gentiles to Christ.

But if you claim that James felt the same way as Paul, that is reading into the scripture. As you have already stated, James was known as James the Just, he was very zealous for the Law of Moses. He already stated in his letter to the 12 tribes that faith without works is dead.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

And how do you know that? Was it thru the writings of Paul?

Was that known during the earthly ministry of Jesus? Are you saying Exodus 19:4–6 no longer applied to the Jews during the time period of the Gospel of Mark?

Galatians 2:21 my friend.

 

[Guojing]

Galatians 2:21 my friend.

Yes, that was the mystery revealed to him after he was saved.

I see that you want to anticipate revelation by claiming that it also applied during Jesus's earthly ministry. Okay then, cheers.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yes, that was the mystery revealed to him after he was saved.

I see that you want to anticipate revelation by claiming that it also applied during Jesus's earthly ministry. Okay then, cheers.

Please clarify this. I am uncertain what you mean by saying I want to anticipate revelation.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yes, that was the mystery revealed to him after he was saved.

I see that you want to anticipate revelation by claiming that it also applied during Jesus's earthly ministry. Okay then, cheers.

Look, the Law never saved anyone. If it did, then the Christ wasted His time dying on a cross and raising from the dead three days later. All the Law did was condemn. The Law demanded perfection, which none could attain. That is why the Christ came. He lived it perfectly, and when we are saved, we are imputed His righteousness. It is as if we never sinned, as the Father sees us through Him, being in Him.

 

[Guojing]

Look, the Law never saved anyone. If it did, then the Christ wasted His time dying on a cross and raising from the dead three days later. All the Law did was condemn. The Law demanded perfection, which none could attain. That is why the Christ came. He lived it perfectly, and when we are saved, we are imputed His righteousness. It is as if we never sinned, as the Father sees us through Him, being in Him.

So you are basically saying that, the moment Jesus starting preaching in Mark, none of the Jews needed to sacrifice animals, be circumcised, and follow the Law of Moses at all?

That was my original question to you.

 

[Dave-L]

it's the baptism not by human hands -- to be cleansed by the washing of the Word. the one by human hands is thereunto also a like figure. and this baptism with which Christ baptizes, saves from far more than a guilty conscience.
heck even the river lethe could put away remorse and regret -- through forgetfulness! but Christ says "remember Me" !

You are adding to God's word. Jesus says whoever BELIEVES has eternal life. Baptism only proves they believe.

 

[Dave-L]

You neglect to mention the preceding comment:
"...eight souls were saved by water, the like figure baptism also doth now save us..." 1 Peter 3:20-21

You cannot have faith if your conscience condemns you. Baptism gives us a healthy conscience as stated previously.

 

[JBTN]

as we have discussed before.... this is a "one time only" event... the gentiles were given the Holy Spirit to PROVE to the Jews that they were acceptable to God. They were not allowed to be baptized before this. Once it was proven to the Jews that God accepted them, Paul insisted they should be baptized. In water, by the way.... this is not the normal "sequence" of events.... as you know.

Hornetguy

Scripture indicates that it wasn’t just a one time occurrence.

Acts 10:47 ESV

”Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy
Spirit just as we have?”

In the last half of The verse above Peter indicates that the house Cornelius received the Holy Spirit just as we have. We in this case refers to Peter and the bothers who accompanied him. So, this verse indicates that the six brothers who accompanied Peter received the Holy Spirit in the same manner.

Acts 11:17 ESV

“If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Us in this verse refers to Peter and the party of the circumcision. Notice that Peter includes the party of the circumcision as having received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 15:7-9

And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

Peter was speaking here to “Brothers.” Notice that he said “giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us.“ Us in this case refers to brothers which included apostles and elders as verse 6 says. He also goes on to say that no distinction was made between us and them. So, the elders present were included as having received the Holy Spirit in the same manner with no distinction.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

So you are basically saying that, the moment Jesus starting preaching in Mark, none of the Jews needed to sacrifice animals, be circumcised, and follow the Law of Moses at all?

That was my original question to you.

Never said that my friend. More than once He told ppl to have the priests offer a sacrifice. But none of that saved them is my point.

 

[BlessedCreator]

The law was still in effect until Christ made the last and final sacrifice for our sins.

 

[Guojing]

Never said that my friend. More than once He told ppl to have the priests offer a sacrifice. But none of that saved them is my point.

I know, they needed to believe he is the Son of God too (John 20:31).

But it was faith + keeping the Law that saves during the 4 Gospels period. That was why that Gospel of the Kingdom was not to be preached to the Gentiles.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I know, they needed to believe he is the Son of God too.

But it was faith + keeping the Law that saves during the 4 Gospels period. That was why that Gospel of the Kingdom was not to be preached to the Gentiles.

It is grace through faith + nothing that saves my friend. None could keep the Law, and that’s why the Christ had to come in the flesh. If it was faith + keeping the Law that saved them, then none of them were saved, seeing none could keep it.

 

[Guojing]

The law was still in effect until Christ made the last and final sacrifice for our sins.

But interestingly, no one told the Jews that until Paul. The resurrected Christ never even mentioned this to the apostles directly.

Years after the cross, Ananias was still known throughout as a "devout man according to the Law" Acts 22:12

 

[Guojing]

It is grace through faith + nothing that saves my friend. None could keep the Law, and that’s why the Christ had to come in the flesh. If it was faith + keeping the Law that saved them, then none of them were saved, seeing none could keep it.

Don't contradict yourself again.

If that is what you are saying, then you are also saying "the moment Jesus starting preaching in Mark, none of the Jews needed to sacrifice animals, be circumcised, and follow the Law of Moses at all".

Either Exodus 19:4-6 held for the Jews during the 4 Gospels, or it doesn't.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Don't contradict yourself again.

If that is what you are saying, then you are also saying "the moment Jesus starting preaching in Mark, none of the Jews needed to sacrifice animals, be circumcised, and follow the Law of Moses at all".

Either Exodus 19:4-6 held for the Jews during the 4 Gospels, or it doesn't.

Again my friend, the Law never saved them. If the Law did, then the Christ died for absolutely no reason whatsoever. The OT saints kept the Law the best they could, but they could not kept it perfectly. All this pointed them to Him.

Galatians 3 addresses this my friend. There’s no contradiction from me at all.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Don't contradict yourself again.

If that is what you are saying, then you are also saying "the moment Jesus starting preaching in Mark, none of the Jews needed to sacrifice animals, be circumcised, and follow the Law of Moses at all".

Either Exodus 19:4-6 held for the Jews during the 4 Gospels, or it doesn't.

So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gal. 3:6]

Obviously this was prior to God giving Moses the Law that would govern His ppl, the Jews. Abraham believed God and it was credited(see imputed) to him as righteousness. Now, whose righteousness are we seeing here? Abraham’s? No. The Christ’s? Yes.