Rapture

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Aug 22, 2024
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Harvest is 3 parts.
Firstfruits
Main harvest
Gleaners and corners.
Firstfruits is Jesus and those resurrected in paradise.
Main harvest is those in christ at the Rapture.
Corners and gleaners are those left behind and martyred.
All of that is the first resurrection.

Rev 20 points to the martyrs.
But there is no resurrection at Rev 20.
People just mis read it
 
Aug 22, 2024
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If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)
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I don't know of anyone that does not see that there is the dead In Christ resurrection at the pre-tribulation rapture. That's clearly stated, and it is a no-brainer that only the dead in christ are resurrected.
And then of course, there's another resurrection after the millennium. So yes there are two resurrections which is very plain and very basic.

Glad you also know there are 2 resurrections.
 
Aug 22, 2024
417
31
28
.

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)
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Read Rev 14.
Jesus comes in the clouds holding a sickle.
That gathering is after the 144k are in heaven.
The 144k are named as firstfruits.
They are firstfruits Jews.
Main harvest Jews are next.
Rev 14:14 is main harvest Jews.

Rev 14 is a doctrinal quandary as demonstrated by all but a few who change that book of Rev to fit some doctrine.

I see tons of members here changing Rev 14 and mat 25's virgin parable.

That is unacceptable.
 
Aug 22, 2024
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Daniel 7:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The time frame of what is depicted in this verse is the Second Coming of Christ.

He is coming down - not going up.
The virgin parable has him doing both.
As does Rev 14.
 
Feb 14, 2025
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Harvest is 3 parts.
Firstfruits
Main harvest
Gleaners and corners.
Firstfruits is Jesus and those resurrected in paradise.
Main harvest is those in christ at the Rapture.
Corners and gleaners are those left behind and martyred.
All of that is the first resurrection.

Rev 20 points to the martyrs.
But there is no resurrection at Rev 20.
People just mis read it
This post is evidence you do not accept Scripture as given but twist it to prove what you believe.
I will ignore your post in the future because to read them is a waste of time.
 
Feb 22, 2021
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In a great many of the cases where an erroneous interpretation of scripture is made, it is because 'details' are overlooked or ignored.
Precious friend, you mean like these Scriptural 'details'?:

The Great GRACE Departure! {aka rapture}

Outline!:

"Do all things Decently And In Order!" (1 Corinthians 14:40 AV)

(1A) PEACE With God! Receiving The Holy Spirit For understanding?
(1B) 1A e-x-p-a-n-d-e-d for
Clarification?

(2a) Which Bible: AV, or, any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) AV And God's
Bible study Rules!

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - Brief Introduction...
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's Timelines?


(4) Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?
(5) GREAT Tribulation? or, tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!?


(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure Expectations!?
(7) God's
Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?

(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking: For WHOM! or, For "signs"?
(9) God's
Removal Of His Body Of CHRIST!:

(10) "Day Of CHRIST { Light }!" / Rightly Divided from {RDf}:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \ "The Day Of The LORD [ Darkness ]!"?


(11) Confidence in death/resurrection, Or, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will
Come "Without Warning!"?

(13) The Two "Trumps" Of God, In His "Age Of GRACE"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air" Up To Heaven! vs U-turn (theology?)


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Back down To earth?

(15) Preparation For [ Israel's tribulation? OR: ]

The Judgment Seat Of Christ!? (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)

(16) Post Departure Deception Question?

Be glad to, if you are at all interested, expound on any of these points, if you wish...
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...IOW, you want to be left behind!
...I often use the phrase "Rapture Cult," not by slur, but by definition.
Why would the above Bible study (according to Bible study Rules!) be defined as such; misinterpretation maybe; And If you find any let me know, as no one else ( except @Sanders )
wishes to discuss these 'details':

Conclusion (Part 17!), The Last of the above Scriptural 'details':

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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It says a cloud took him up, not that he ascended to the clouds. He obviously ascended to heaven as described in Daniel 7:13
Daniel 7:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The time frame of what is depicted in this verse is the Second Coming of Christ.

He is coming down - not going up.
No it isn't because the son of man is brought in clouds to the Ancient of Days (the father) on the throne in heaven where he was given a kingdom and glory and told to sit at his right hand until his enemies are made his footstool. Then 2000 or so years later he stands up and comes to earth in clouds. Daniel 7:13 is the heavenly side of Acts 1:9 and the same thing as Revelation 5.
Nope.

Nothing depicted in Daniel 7 takes place in the 3rd heaven.

on earth and in 1st/2nd heaven - yes; 3rd heaven - no

Read very carefully.

At the Second Coming of Christ - the Father will be here...
No, I can see we are not on the same page eschatology-wise
Daniel 7:

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. 2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. 15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

In verse 9, where the thrones that were cast down in the 3rd heaven? No, of course not. It is an earth setting.

In verse 13, Jesus came with the clouds - He did not go with the clouds. It is an earth setting.

What is indicated in verse 21 did not occur in the 3rd heaven. It is an earth setting.

In verse 22, the Father came - which means, there is a 'came from' and a 'came to' - which means, He changed locations.

All of the event/occurrence details place all of this in an earth setting.

The time frame of the three 'Ancient of days' verses in green is the Second Coming of Christ.
 
Aug 5, 2021
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One's belief in the timing of the rapture does not affect one's salvation. We are saved by grace through faith. We are instructed to wait and watch for the Lord's return.

(KJV Ephesians 2:8-9) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast."

(KJV Luke 12:35-38) "Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, tha the shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants."
 

Psalm1

Active member
Aug 22, 2024
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This post is evidence you do not accept Scripture as given but twist it to prove what you believe.
I will ignore your post in the future because to read them is a waste of time.
There is tons and tons on end times analogy by Jesus using plants and harvest.

To just throw all that down is ignorant.
So many of you are not at all bible centered.
 

Psalm1

Active member
Aug 22, 2024
417
31
28
This post is evidence you do not accept Scripture as given but twist it to prove what you believe.
I will ignore your post in the future because to read them is a waste of time.
People saying there is a resurrection at Rev 20 in the millineum are not understanding their Bible.
It IN NO WAY says or POINTS TO a resurrection in the millennium.
Re read it.
However in the NIV bible IT SAYS they "came to life" and is WHERE that erroneous doctrine came from
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I am amazed you are not curios enough to investigate truth.