Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[Noose]

None of those verses conflicts with pretrib rapture.
Some things are agreeable to both doctrines.

They don't conflict, they destroy rapture doctrine.
For example, consider this:

2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

1. Paul is talking about death and resurrection here just like in 1 Thess 4.
2. Paul is saying that the dead believers are raised with Jesus and presented together with the living (his listeners) for their benefit, same thing he said in 1 Thess 4 only that in 1 Thess 4 he put it differently (caught together in the air).


#A resurrection in 21st century and counting will not be of any benefit for Paul's listeners in the 1st century who Paul assured by way of writing. If it were so, then Paul should know that in 21st century (and counting), all his 1st century listeners are definitely be dead so there's no need of telling them that his death will benefit them.

#There's no way you'll get rapture in this context yet Paul is talking about the same thing as in 1 Thess 4. This is why i keep saying that rapture is a doctrine that came from misunderstanding the phrase "caught in the air". It doesn't mean flying off.

 

[Absolutely]

It is like someone saying "see,see,the three hebrews were renoved/left the furnace"

Uh,no it does NOT say or imply that.

They were protected IN IT.

So to make a non argument that removal is the same as staying (noose) is incorrect

 

[Noose]

That my friend is beyond me.

There is a heaven and i am looking forward to being there.

Pilgrims progress,the entire book,is a christian and his walk ,headed to the celestial city/ heaven.

While you are marching to some unknown destination, God has been preparing His dwelling here on earth, in the hearts of men. So wherever you are going, God isn't there:

Rev 21:3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.

This is the culmination of promise after promise:

Ezekiel 37:27
My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.

 

[Absolutely]

They don't conflict, they destroy rapture doctrine.
For example, consider this:

2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

1. Paul is talking about death and resurrection here just like in 1 Thess 4.
2. Paul is saying that the dead believers are raised with Jesus and presented together with the living (his listeners) for their benefit, same thing he said in 1 Thess 4 only that in 1 Thess 4 he put it differently (caught together in the air).


#A resurrection in 21st century and counting will not be of any benefit for Paul's listeners in the 1st century who Paul assured by way of writing. If it were so, then Paul should know that in 21st century (and counting), all his 1st century listeners are definitely be dead so there's no need of telling them that his death will benefit them.

#There's no way you'll get rapture in this context yet Paul is talking about the same thing as in 1 Thess 4. This is why i keep saying that rapture is a doctrine that came from misunderstanding the phrase "caught in the air". It doesn't mean flying off.

Jesus,Elijah,Enoch,the 2 witnesse....."flew off."

Rev 14
The 144k and the next group taken by Jesus in the clouds "fly off"

So will i

 

[Absolutely]

While you are marching to some unknown destination, God has been preparing His dwelling here on earth, in the hearts of men. So wherever you are going, God isn't there:

Rev 21:3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.

This is the culmination of promise after promise:

Ezekiel 37:27
My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.

One does not erase the other.

 

[Noose]

neither stayed where they were.
Both were taken.
Both removed.

Both were spared

Both had help leaving

Both were removed before the judgement.

Postribs need a post Judgement deliverance.
They need Noah going up AFTER the flood.

The need Lot to stay and be protected in sodom. (No deliverance but a fireproof house like the 3 hebrews in the furnace)

It truly is a pretrib rapture as Jesus tells us in mat 24 "...BEFORE THE FLOOD..
one taken,one left"

Thank you Jesus!!!

No pretribs, no mid nothing, no post tribs- No rapture. And we are in the Great Tribulation- we have been since the 1st century.

 

[Absolutely]

Is 1 Thess 4 part of these rapture verses? Ok, pay attention.

1 Thess 4:
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1. God will raise Jesus and bring Him together with the dead in Christ
2. Paul is counting himself among those that are alive for he says "we who are alive..."
3. The risen dead are caught up together with Paul and the rest of the living

Now listen carefully to Paul again:

2 Cor 4:
10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

1. God who raised Jesus will also raise Paul and others and be presented with Jesus and those that are living
2. Paul is counting himself among the dead who will be raised
3. Risen Paul (and others) will be presented together with Jesus and his living listeners for their benefit.

Conclusion
1. Resurrection seems to be a continuous event rather than a single mega event. Paul once counts himself among the risen dead and in another place counts himself among the living

2. Caught in the air does not mean flying off rather the spirits of the risen dead indwelling the living for their benefit. Now, if the spirits of the dead saints rise to space, how will that benefit the living?
Peter puts it clearly how his dying will help his listeners (2 Pet 1:13-15)

No no no
It says "as Jesus died and was risen then raptured"


For if we believe that Jesus
died and rose again, even so
them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him

So we see the example of those dead IN CHRIST will follow that pattern.

You have them bypassing resurrection from the dead then taken up AS WAS JESUS.

 

[Noose]

One does not erase the other.

Yeah, like i said, looking forward to be raptured to the space is looking forward to be raptured to oblivion. Heaven is here on earth, in the hearts of believers:

Heb 12:
18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touchede and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.”f 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”g

22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all men, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if the people did not escape when they refused Him who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject Him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth, but heaven as well.”h 27The words, “Once more,” signify the removal of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that the unshakable may remain.

28Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. 29“For our God is a consuming fire.”i

 

[Noose]

Jesus,Elijah,Enoch,the 2 witnesse....."flew off."

Rev 14
The 144k and the next group taken by Jesus in the clouds "fly off"

So will i

Yeah, going to space is not going to heaven, like i said, there's no one in space:

John 3:13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus would be paranoid to say this knowing very well that Elijah and the rest had ascended to heaven.

 

[Noose]

No no no
It says "as Jesus died and was risen then raptured"


For if we believe that Jesus
died and rose again, even so
them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him

So we see the example of those dead IN CHRIST will follow that pattern.

You have them bypassing resurrection from the dead then taken up AS WAS JESUS.

Correct, those that die in Christ are raised and then presented together with living believers (Caught together in the air). But this doesn't mean flying off but they will enter the 'rooms' prepared for them. Those rooms are what we call new Jerusalem/ temple of God and they are right here on earth and not in space:

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

 

[CS1]

And yet in 1 thes the dead are resurrected and RAPTURED ALIVE.

So stop with the false rearranging

Your deal is getting rediculous.

Jesus raptured alive
The 2 witnesses raptured alive
THE ENTIRE BODY OF CHRIST BOTH RESURRECTED AND THOSE OF US ALIVE...RAPTURED ALIVE

You should know attacking those you disagree with does not make you right. The only ridiculous thing is your assertions of your own understanding and no one else possibility of being correct. Unlike you, many here who do not agree with the pretrib "Rapture" will agree the coming of the Lord is eminent. Nor are this who disagree with pretrib rapture insulting those who agree with the pretrib position. No one has provided false arrangements, they have given what they see asa biblically supported stand on the Taking of the Church. If you were able to speak more respectfully one might hear what you have to say, even if they disagree.

 

[Gregoryp]

so what I am gathering from all of this is, your hoping the world carries on business as usual, except Jesus will be its head. So we can all carry on gathering possessions, loving our possessions, selling and buying shares, going to our beach house in Florida each summer etc? If so , I have bad news for you, the goats are going to be separated from the sheep, lovers of the world are going to be separated from the elect. The elect are going elsewhere, leaving the rest behind. Your welcome

 

[Absolutely]

You should know attacking those you disagree with does not make you right. The only ridiculous thing is your assertions of your own understanding and no one else possibility of being correct. Unlike you, many here who do not agree with the pretrib "Rapture" will agree the coming of the Lord is eminent. Nor are this who disagree with pretrib rapture insulting those who agree with the pretrib position. No one has provided false arrangements, they have given what they see asa biblically supported stand on the Taking of the Church. If you were able to speak more respectfully one might hear what you have to say, even if they disagree.

I went back and read my post. Nothing at all there that warrants me being singled out.
I think your scolding me is about as bad as anything i might be doing.

Go back and look at the substance.
He was asserting that There is no rapture,but when we die we are raptured to heaven spiritually.
It is indeed rearranging and rediculous.

 

[Guojing]

You should know attacking those you disagree with does not make you right. The only ridiculous thing is your assertions of your own understanding and no one else possibility of being correct. Unlike you, many here who do not agree with the pretrib "Rapture" will agree the coming of the Lord is eminent. Nor are this who disagree with pretrib rapture insulting those who agree with the pretrib position. No one has provided false arrangements, they have given what they see asa biblically supported stand on the Taking of the Church. If you were able to speak more respectfully one might hear what you have to say, even if they disagree.

That's true, I find that a number of people here find it very difficult to just state their point of view when they are debating others. They always like to throw in all kinds of personal attacks, whether be it "you are twisting the scripture, you are saying you are very smart" and so on and so forth.

I think its because such behavior, where people attack you if they disagree with you, seems to be reinforced with likes here.

Thus, with such positive reinforcement, it will continue, much like how cyber bullying gets reinforced when the bullies saw that many other people are sharing/retweeting their posts

 

[cv5]

Pre-tribbers are not suggesting the Church which is His body "stays in heaven," but I have continually pointed out how we (the Church which is His body, of whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains) RETURNS *WITH [G4862]* Him, when HE "RETURNS" to the earth (as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom") FOR the promised and promised earthly Millennial Kingdom [not as its "Subjects"], aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]"...

IOW, "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" (to whom "the MARRIAGE" itself pertains) is not "the Guests [PLURAL]," nor the "10 [nor even 5] Virgins/Bridesmaids [PLURAL]," nor "the Servants [plural; of that specific, limited (future) time period]" (to whom "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka the MK inauguration] pertains)... He is not returning/coming to MARRY the "10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]"! (they enter the MK age [as "saints" having come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture, IN/DURING the trib yrs] upon His "RETURN" there; see also Lk12:36-37,38,40-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal!)

I don't believe ANY "saints" will be missing from the MK age... ALL will be present and accounted for... and only "saints" will ENTER it (at its commencement/starting point in time).

The question becomes... how long does "the Church which is His body" go up for, before His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19 (I already provided the vid showing the manuscript evidence for Rev5:9 saying "US")

Well spoken thank you.

Indeed, the Church and the Rapture MUST be realized in Jesus own terms, and these terms are precisely the pattern of a Jewish wedding ceremony/ritual, from beginning to end. Jesus returns to his waiting Virgin (who is waiting for an indeterminate period of time), after He has built a house for her. He can return at ANY MOMENT (doctrine of imminency). The marriage ritual DOES NOT INCLUDE PUTTING HIS BRIDE THROUGH WRATH before taking her to the house He has built and consummating the marriage which leads to the wedding feast.

A pre-trib rapture, and millennial Kingdom where Christ literals sits on the throne of David (Luke 1:32) is the one and only eschatological solution.

For the life of me I cannot fathom all of this confusion.

 

[Absolutely]

That's true, I find that a number of people here find it very difficult to just state their point of view when they are debating others. They always like to throw in all kinds of personal attacks, whether be it "you are twisting the scripture, you are saying you are very smart" and so on and so forth.

I think its because such behavior, where people attack you if they disagree with you, seems to be reinforced with likes here.

Thus, with such positive reinforcement, it will continue, much like how cyber bullying gets reinforced when the bullies saw that many other people are sharing/retweeting their posts

Since we are now policing one another i found your post of last tuesday gosh awful insulting
"I already quoted acts 21 and you use your vivid imagination to somehow conclude that James was merely putting on appearances for the Jews

Scripture is clearly not good enough for you"

I mean ,gee, can you tone it down please

Just joking,but it is getting a little weird now that the walking on eggshells is being invoked.

 

[Absolutely]

""your assertions of your own understanding and no one else possibility of being correct. Unlike you...."

Uh ,hello....they are all doing that very thing

You got a definate personal problem with me if you think my posts are out of line.

I wade through tons of insults here and do not bite on them at all.

 

[Guojing]

Since we are now policing one another i found your post of last tuesday gosh awful insulting
"I already quoted acts 21 and you use your vivid imagination to somehow conclude that James was merely putting on appearances for the Jews

Scripture is clearly not good enough for you"

I mean ,gee, can you tone it down please

Just joking,but it is getting a little weird now that the walking on eggshells is being invoked.

I don't regard that as a personal attack, and neither did the person I was responding to felt it. But of course, you are free to have your own opinions

 

[Absolutely]

I don't regard that as a personal attack, and neither did the person I was responding to felt it. But of course, you are free to have your own opinions

Nor is anything i posted a personal attack.
But you are free to your opinions.

 

[Absolutely]

I put you 3 on ignore.

Too tedious to worry over hypersensitivity