PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[BenjaminN]

2 cor 3
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7¶But if the MINISTRATION OF DEATH , written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY :

8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9For if the ministration of CONDEMNATION be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11For if that which is DONE AWAY was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12¶Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which IS ABOLISHED:

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is DONE AWAY in Christ.

15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Luke 10 (ESV)

25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" 27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." 28 And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."

 

[throughfaith]

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Luke 10 (ESV)

25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" 27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." 28 And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."

ISREAL !!! AND OLD TESTAMENT.

 

[throughfaith]

Paul did not teach lawlessness, ie. to be without the law. You are misinterpreting Paul. Paul preached that we are not saved by the law, but being saved by grace, through God's gift of faith, we walk in good works prepared by God. How would you define good works, if they are not within God's will, his commandments, his law? Saved by grace, brings us to obeying God's will, his commandments, his law. Obeying God's will, his commandments, his law does not save us.


2 Thessalonians 2 (ESV)

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Genuine question. How did you get put onto the ESV ? I notice its the Calvinists go to translation ,so I'm curious how it ends up in certain peoples possession. Is it your church bible as standard ?

 

[BenjaminN]

Paul did not teach lawlessness, ie. to be without the law. You are misinterpreting Paul. Paul preached that we are not saved by the law, but being saved by grace, through God's gift of faith, we walk in good works prepared by God. How would you define good works, if they are not within God's will, his commandments, his law? Saved by grace, brings us to obeying God's will, his commandments, his law. Obeying God's will, his commandments, his law does not save us.


2 Thessalonians 2 (ESV)

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Seriously come now let us reason together with a proper translation .

The man of sin is without God's will, God's commandments, God's law, he is the man of lawlessness. Do you want to be without God's will, God's commandments, God's law like the man of sin?


2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2 (ESV)

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[BenjaminN]

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Luke 10 (ESV)

25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" 27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." 28 And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."

ISREAL !!! AND OLD TESTAMENT.

Notice the wording of the word will - pointing to the future covenant / testament, the new testament we are currently under, and grafted into Israel.

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[throughfaith]

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Luke 10 (ESV)

25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" 27 And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." 28 And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."

Hebrews 8
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Does this even sound remotely ' Gentiles ' ?

 

[throughfaith]

The man of sin is without God's will, God's commandments, God's law, he is the man of lawlessness. Do you want to be without God's will, God's commandments, God's law like the man of sin?


2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2 (ESV)

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Thats about the Anti christ After the rapture ?

 

[BenjaminN]

Genuine question. How did you get put onto the ESV ? I notice its the Calvinists go to translation ,so I'm curious how it ends up in certain peoples possession. Is it your church bible as standard ?

Actually Afrikaans is my home language, not English. I use ESV because it is 2020, and the Shakespearean English of the KJV hinders my comprehension of God's message. I've checked the ESV and could not find any discrepancies until now, you are however welcome to point out any mistranslations as we go along, and you check your preferred translation.

 

[BenjaminN]

Thats about the Anti christ After the rapture ?

Sorry, can not agree, the anti-christ is before the rapture, during the great tribulation. Matthew 24 teaches a post-Tribulation rapture with the next and final coming of Christ Yeshua. Not the second, third, fourth... coming of Christ Yeshua, nor the first, second, third... rapture of his covenant people grafted into Israel. Nor does the whole of God's word speak of two separate covenant peoples of God, it has always been Israel, into which all believing Gentiles, and believing Jews are grafted into the root of the King of Israel, Christ Yeshua.

 

[throughfaith]

Notice the wording of the word will - pointing to the future covenant / testament, the new testament we are currently under, and grafted into Israel.

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Why do I think you may be getting your theology from Arthur W. Pink (Sovereignty of God).

 

[throughfaith]

Actually Afrikaans is my home language, not English. I use ESV because it is 2020, and the Shakespearean English of the KJV hinders my comprehension of God's message. I've checked the ESV and could not find any discrepancies until now, you are however welcome to point out any mistranslations as we go along, and you check your preferred translation.

Eph 5.9
Fruit of the what?

 

[throughfaith]

Notice the wording of the word will - pointing to the future covenant / testament, the new testament we are currently under, and grafted into Israel.

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The covenant that is about to be established is to be with 1.) “the house of Israel” and 2.) “the house of Judah”

A. The covenant is not to be made with “the elect.”

.B The covenant is not to be made with the Body of Christ.


C. The covenant is not to be made with the “Israel of God.”

D. The covenant is not to be made with “Spiritual Jews.”

E. The covenant is not to be made with “Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

F. The covenant is to be made with “the church.”

G. The covenant is not to be made with “Spiritual Israel.”

H. The covenant is not to be made with Christians, believers, Catholics, or Hebrew Christians.

The covenant is to be made “with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” (vs. 8).
All Campbellites (Church of Christ elders) pervert the passage. All Roman Catholic bishops and priests pervert the passage. All Mormons and Seventh-day Adventists pervert the passage.

The covenant spoken of here produces the following unique results: 1. The laws of God wind up in the hearts and minds of an entire nation that murdered God’s Son (Acts 7:52; Matt. 21:38–39) and opposed the preaching of the gospel (1 Thess. 2:15–16): “I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts” (vs. 10). 2. God will convert every single living Jew (not “spiritual Jew” or “spiritual Israel”) who composes the “house of Israel” and the “house of Judah” (vs. 11) so that none of them will have to witness or testify to anyone about any “plan of salvation,” “the gospel,” “the new covenant,” or anything like it.
This is the theme of Romans 11 .

 

[PennEd]

We should . No one being rescued whilst drowning ever boasted he put his hand up to be grabbed .

How does a dead person raise their hand?

 

[throughfaith]

How does a dead person raise their hand?

Depends how far you go with ' deadness ' . Jesus refers to us needing a physcian. Sick not dead . Unless you believe we should preach at the cemetery?

 

[PennEd]

Depends how far you go with ' deadness ' . Jesus refers to us needing a physcian. Sick not dead . Unless you believe we should preach at the cemetery?

Jesus told a perspective follower who wanted to bury his father, “Let the dead bury their dead”.

Were you Spiritually alive BEFORE you were born again?

 

[throughfaith]

Jesus told a perspective follower who wanted to bury his father, “Let the dead bury their dead”.

Were you Spiritually alive BEFORE you were born again?

Again ,were they literally corpses burying other corpses ? We have to be careful of how literal we take some words .

 

[PennEd]

Again ,were they literally corpses burying other corpses ? We have to be careful of how literal we take some words .

No. That’s just the point. Jesus was referencing the Spiritually dead, burying the physically dead.

Were you Spiritually alive BEFORE becoming born again?

 

[throughfaith]

No. That’s just the point. Jesus was referencing the Spiritually dead, burying the physically dead.

Were you Spiritually alive BEFORE becoming born again?

Not in the sense of regenerated. Nor do I believe we are regenerated before we believe. Regeneration comes after .

 

[PennEd]

Not in the sense of regenerated. Nor do I believe we are regenerated before we believe. Regeneration comes after .

So since you agree you were dead, how did you raise your hand as a dead person?

 

[throughfaith]

So since you agree you were dead, how did you raise your hand as a dead person?

let's look at the analogy again . Of course every analogy breaks down at some point . If I couldn't lift my hand up then I'd already be dead in the water . They wouldn't even see me i would have sank to the bottom of the ocean..So in the scenario i gave im in the water ( not dead yet ) and I see a hand extended to me . I lift my hand and he grabs me ,pulls me up into a helicopter and brings me safe to dry land safe and sound. So back to the bible. We are outside of christ ,lost and without hope. But then comes the Gospel. The good news . we hear it and we obey from the heart to recieve Jesus. John 1 .12