predestination vs freewill
- Thread starter Ivon
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Show me someone is scripture who ever boasted that they chose Christ of their own freewill. And Jesus said we did not choose Him but He chose us. Always the scripture runs Blessed be God who by His great mercy hath chosen us.
Again show me someone who was ever born again by their own will. The scripture says we are born again not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God.
It is a boast.
Non christians believe either that christians are better than they could ever be or else they despise christians for believing they are better than everyone else. You heard the the same gospel that they heard, you got saved but they didn't ... therefore you must be better than they are. You must be wiser, more righteous.
There must have been some good thing in you that enabled you to choose Christ.
Again show me someone who was ever born again by their own will. The scripture says we are born again not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God.
It is a boast.
Non christians believe either that christians are better than they could ever be or else they despise christians for believing they are better than everyone else. You heard the the same gospel that they heard, you got saved but they didn't ... therefore you must be better than they are. You must be wiser, more righteous.
There must have been some good thing in you that enabled you to choose Christ.
-
1
- Show all
I would also say that should someone come to a true faith in Christ, it is solely by God first having saved them, sending the Holy Spirit to indwell them, and from that, being given the fruit of the Spirit one of which is faith. In all aspects we are but blessed recipients who can offer/contribute nothing whatsoever to it.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Some non sequitur thinking here. Let me give you a different perspective. Everything you are doing right now--you--is coming by your own choice. Nothing you do is strictly by someone else's choice. But if someone--say your wife--chooses for you to do something, it may be by her choice that you're doing it, but it is also by your choice to comply with her wishes.
It is the same with God's choice for us. He chooses us to make us His. But we choose to accept that choice. We are not without free will--we freely choose to comply with His will.
What the Scriptures are saying is that it is impossible to choose for God if He does not first choose for us. He must precipitate the action. He must start the ball rolling. If he doesn't send His word of salvation to us, there is no word of salvation we can choose to receive.
It is indeed more complicated when it comes to Predestination, and I am in fact Predestinarian. But I also believe in free will. God has a certain number of people He chose to have from before creation, and those people He chose will accept Him. It is in their created nature to want the word that created them.
Those produced beyond this number are like those in Jesus' parable who were planted by an enemy. The farmer did not intend for the tares to be planted, but somehow they got planted. I think people not originally planned by God are the product of human and Satanic interference in God's plan to procreate children through Man. The reproductive process began to churn out children that God never planned, and they choose, by their nature, to act outside of God's word, to be repelled, to some degree, by that word.
But all men were created to be able to respond to God's word, including those not planned by God. As such, God's word reaches out to all men, knowing that some will choose to reject him, but can still respond to His word, acting better or worse, as they choose. Those outside of God's Kingdom can still be punished less or more, based on what they choose to do in this life.
I was raised a Lutheran (am not any long), and Luther was one of the biggest proponents of the "bondage of the will." But Luther, as smart as he was, was inconsistent in his theology, I think. His associate Melanchthon was more open to the idea of free will, as am I.
It is the same with God's choice for us. He chooses us to make us His. But we choose to accept that choice. We are not without free will--we freely choose to comply with His will.
What the Scriptures are saying is that it is impossible to choose for God if He does not first choose for us. He must precipitate the action. He must start the ball rolling. If he doesn't send His word of salvation to us, there is no word of salvation we can choose to receive.
It is indeed more complicated when it comes to Predestination, and I am in fact Predestinarian. But I also believe in free will. God has a certain number of people He chose to have from before creation, and those people He chose will accept Him. It is in their created nature to want the word that created them.
Those produced beyond this number are like those in Jesus' parable who were planted by an enemy. The farmer did not intend for the tares to be planted, but somehow they got planted. I think people not originally planned by God are the product of human and Satanic interference in God's plan to procreate children through Man. The reproductive process began to churn out children that God never planned, and they choose, by their nature, to act outside of God's word, to be repelled, to some degree, by that word.
But all men were created to be able to respond to God's word, including those not planned by God. As such, God's word reaches out to all men, knowing that some will choose to reject him, but can still respond to His word, acting better or worse, as they choose. Those outside of God's Kingdom can still be punished less or more, based on what they choose to do in this life.
I was raised a Lutheran (am not any long), and Luther was one of the biggest proponents of the "bondage of the will." But Luther, as smart as he was, was inconsistent in his theology, I think. His associate Melanchthon was more open to the idea of free will, as am I.
If you don't mind me asking, don't you believe that Christ alone is the Savior?
[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
We already know that God wishes that all be saved, and that Christ died for all, and the Gospel was to be preached to all men. So why don't all men choose Him? The answer lies with Predestination, I believe. God has chosen, from the beginning, who will be His, and how many will be His. He is the Father of those children, called "the elect." They are naturally drawn to God, their Father, and want to comply with His word, though they can also be corrupted to want to choose outside of God's will.
The reason the rest are called "children of the Evil One" is because they are the product of a human and satanic partnership. God's People have allowed Satan to coerce them into acting outside of God's will.
Ultimately, Satan is able to produce children through Man, and children outside of God's original number are produced who, like Satan, want to act outside of God's will. Satan has become their father--not God. They still have free will, but are inclined to reject being in God's original number, wanting to be among those who live independent of God's word.
The reason the rest are called "children of the Evil One" is because they are the product of a human and satanic partnership. God's People have allowed Satan to coerce them into acting outside of God's will.
Ultimately, Satan is able to produce children through Man, and children outside of God's original number are produced who, like Satan, want to act outside of God's will. Satan has become their father--not God. They still have free will, but are inclined to reject being in God's original number, wanting to be among those who live independent of God's word.
Okay then as sole Savior, how could anything else but the Savior be needed to effectuate salvation? Hence Christ's title of Savior. Otherwise, it would be like saying that Christ is half Savior, we are the other half savior. Were it dependent upon ourselves to bring it to fruition, and should we do it, we then become our own savior. Conversely, should we not do it, then we remove Christ as Savior. So, there can be no middle ground - Christ must do it all or He cannot hold the title of Savior.
Take Saul (Paul the Apostle) as an example/template. Paul did absolutely nothing to become saved and had no desire for it whatsoever- he was simply its beneficiary. In fact, when God saved him he was on his way to kill and imprison Christians. Did Paul have first to agree to it, or was he simply transformed by God because God had chosen him?
What I'm trying to convey is that Christ has completed all that was necessary to save, for all those He came to save. The salvation transaction (so to speak) was singularly between Jesus and God the Father, with those saved as beneficiaries not contributors.
Take Saul (Paul the Apostle) as an example/template. Paul did absolutely nothing to become saved and had no desire for it whatsoever- he was simply its beneficiary. In fact, when God saved him he was on his way to kill and imprison Christians. Did Paul have first to agree to it, or was he simply transformed by God because God had chosen him?
What I'm trying to convey is that Christ has completed all that was necessary to save, for all those He came to save. The salvation transaction (so to speak) was singularly between Jesus and God the Father, with those saved as beneficiaries not contributors.
-
1
- Show all
I disagree. It is not God's wish that all become saved. If Christ died for all, then all MUST become saved.
[Jhn 17:8-10 KJV]
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
[Jhn 17:8-10 KJV]
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
-
1
- Show all
I just answered that! I told you that the Savior is the one who initiates the Salvation. What is needed beyond that is for someone to choose to accept that Salvation. You are confusing the work of Salvation, which is Christ's alone, from the result of Christ's work, which is the reception of that salvation. To effectuate salvation *as a result,* people need to accept that salvation!
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
You have asked the age old question. This leads one into the two distinct sides of Salvation. Either it is free will or God's grace. The free will side say they believe in Grace but the reality is they do not. They believe this Grace is Christ Jesus and deny the fact that this Grace is in every aspect of Salvation which was in the mind of God from the beginning. Salvation is ALL from God, (Rom 8:28-30)
When Adam fell, all of humanity fell in him. This resulted in humanity becoming darkened and at enmity with God. God knowing this fact, even before He created anything, had already planned Redemption for the Elect. Why the Elect only? It is not that complicated to understand after decades of Scripture study. It is extremely difficult for a new convert. You are at a perilous point in your life but the Holy Spirit will help you see the TRUTH. As our Lord said in John 10:5, the sheep know my voice, (The voice of Truth), and will not follow another. Additionally, the Lord said in John 10:11&15, that He was laying down His life for the Sheep. A distinct group of people. God's chosen remnant.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd is laying down his life for the sheep.
Everyone has a "will" and exercises that "will" but it is NOT FREE. Since the fall, the will is in bondage to sin and is darkness and at enmity with God. Therefore, the will of man is exercised out of this nature. The "will" of a man (read desire), cannot work independent of his nature. Since fallen man cares nothing of the things of God and they are foolishness to him, it is unreasonable to think that he will choose something counter to his/her nature. Instead, according to Romans Ch. 1, he/she exchanges the Truth of God for a lie. The "free-wiliest" either denies this bondage or has persons acting against their very nature. A nature that is darkness, will not choose that which is light. This argument doesn't even make good common sense.
2Cor_4:6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Eph 5:8 for ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light
Eph_5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them;
In the subject of Soteriology, (Salvation), there is both the work of God upon His Elect and the need of the Elect to believe the Gospel. Therefore, to believe on Jesus Christ and to believe the Truth of Scripture. To believe on Jesus Christ cannot be weightier than ones belief in God's revealed Truth, they must be equal and co-existent. If they are not - then one could be believing in a false Christ and many are. Doctrinal Truth cannot be diminished in it's importance. True worship must be in Spirit and Truth (John 4:24). The Bible lays out this "Objective" reality. Worship must be more than "subjective" beliefs.
In order for the Elect of God to believe upon Jesus Christ as their Savior, He must first change their nature. Even the Elect of God are darkness for a time in their life. Their "will" would not choose Christ, indeed they cannot according to John 6:44,65 as well as other verses. At this time, in the elect persons life, choosing Christ would be against his/her nature. So how does the Father bring this about? First - He chose individuals to be saved before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4, Rev. 13:8 & 21:27). The non-elect were passed by and left in their sins. This is God's right. He does not have to show anyone mercy, fore we are all guilty but thanks be to Him that He does. He gave them to His Son to be Redeemed. (John 6:39, 10:16, 17:2 & 6).
Now the elect individuals "nature" must be changed. Note in John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. The portion in blue, speaks to mans inability because of his darkened nature. A nature that will not come to Christ. The portion in red, speaks to the changing of that nature, so that a person, with this new nature is drawn to Christ. How is the drawing done? This is discussed in John 3:1-10. The elect person, at the designated time, will be born from above. This is the Sovereign work of Grace carried out by the Holy Spirit. It is a secret work of the Spirit and the recipient is totally "passive" in it's operation, according to the "perfect tense" Greek verb, (In the Passive Voice). Now with a new nature, the individual sees Christ in a whole new light. This new nature is called a heart of flesh, replacing the stony heart as it is called in the Old Testament, (Eze 36:26). Now with this new nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this person has seeing eyes and hearing ears. They will come to Christ and they will believe on Him and the revealed Truth of God. This is the assurance of God's Salvation plan. Be not fooled are lead astray. Salvation is for the Elect and they will come to know Jesus Christ and not a one will be lost. Read Romans Ch. 9 and meditate upon these things.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
When Adam fell, all of humanity fell in him. This resulted in humanity becoming darkened and at enmity with God. God knowing this fact, even before He created anything, had already planned Redemption for the Elect. Why the Elect only? It is not that complicated to understand after decades of Scripture study. It is extremely difficult for a new convert. You are at a perilous point in your life but the Holy Spirit will help you see the TRUTH. As our Lord said in John 10:5, the sheep know my voice, (The voice of Truth), and will not follow another. Additionally, the Lord said in John 10:11&15, that He was laying down His life for the Sheep. A distinct group of people. God's chosen remnant.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd is laying down his life for the sheep.
Everyone has a "will" and exercises that "will" but it is NOT FREE. Since the fall, the will is in bondage to sin and is darkness and at enmity with God. Therefore, the will of man is exercised out of this nature. The "will" of a man (read desire), cannot work independent of his nature. Since fallen man cares nothing of the things of God and they are foolishness to him, it is unreasonable to think that he will choose something counter to his/her nature. Instead, according to Romans Ch. 1, he/she exchanges the Truth of God for a lie. The "free-wiliest" either denies this bondage or has persons acting against their very nature. A nature that is darkness, will not choose that which is light. This argument doesn't even make good common sense.
2Cor_4:6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Eph 5:8 for ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light
Eph_5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them;
In the subject of Soteriology, (Salvation), there is both the work of God upon His Elect and the need of the Elect to believe the Gospel. Therefore, to believe on Jesus Christ and to believe the Truth of Scripture. To believe on Jesus Christ cannot be weightier than ones belief in God's revealed Truth, they must be equal and co-existent. If they are not - then one could be believing in a false Christ and many are. Doctrinal Truth cannot be diminished in it's importance. True worship must be in Spirit and Truth (John 4:24). The Bible lays out this "Objective" reality. Worship must be more than "subjective" beliefs.
In order for the Elect of God to believe upon Jesus Christ as their Savior, He must first change their nature. Even the Elect of God are darkness for a time in their life. Their "will" would not choose Christ, indeed they cannot according to John 6:44,65 as well as other verses. At this time, in the elect persons life, choosing Christ would be against his/her nature. So how does the Father bring this about? First - He chose individuals to be saved before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4, Rev. 13:8 & 21:27). The non-elect were passed by and left in their sins. This is God's right. He does not have to show anyone mercy, fore we are all guilty but thanks be to Him that He does. He gave them to His Son to be Redeemed. (John 6:39, 10:16, 17:2 & 6).
Now the elect individuals "nature" must be changed. Note in John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. The portion in blue, speaks to mans inability because of his darkened nature. A nature that will not come to Christ. The portion in red, speaks to the changing of that nature, so that a person, with this new nature is drawn to Christ. How is the drawing done? This is discussed in John 3:1-10. The elect person, at the designated time, will be born from above. This is the Sovereign work of Grace carried out by the Holy Spirit. It is a secret work of the Spirit and the recipient is totally "passive" in it's operation, according to the "perfect tense" Greek verb, (In the Passive Voice). Now with a new nature, the individual sees Christ in a whole new light. This new nature is called a heart of flesh, replacing the stony heart as it is called in the Old Testament, (Eze 36:26). Now with this new nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this person has seeing eyes and hearing ears. They will come to Christ and they will believe on Him and the revealed Truth of God. This is the assurance of God's Salvation plan. Be not fooled are lead astray. Salvation is for the Elect and they will come to know Jesus Christ and not a one will be lost. Read Romans Ch. 9 and meditate upon these things.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
-
1
- Show all
Then by your logic, Christ can't be the one true and only Savior. A Savior who is unable to grant salvation -- and that in effect is what you're saying-- by any standard can't be considered a Savior. It is logically possible then, that if salvation is primarily based upon our actions, that no one, or everyone, might become saved -- both outcomes are possible. They are possible because they rest upon our own assessment of our spiritual condition. How can we even be sure whether we've correctly "accepted salvation" (whatever that might mean) ? Please define the criteria that illuminates when it's been achieved. It sounds to me like you are describing (whether you realize it or not) that our works are a requirement for salvation. The Bible makes it abundantly clear, however, that we can never be saved by any of our works.
I don't know why you say that? I said God initiates the knowledge of salvation, reaching out to the world with his free gift. And then, who gets saved is decided by men, who choose either for it or against it. He is still the Savior even though we make the choice.
Yes they are. But we also know that some will choose for, and some will choose against. That is determined by a person's inward intuition or predilection. I call it Predestination.
It is achieved when we prefer to be children of God, and reaches fruit-bearing status only when we begin to obey God's word, to follow God as our only God.
Jesus said that our work is to believe in him, which means to follow him. None of this means we're saved by works. It only means that Jesus alone did the work for our salvation, and that salvation results when we choose to follow him.
John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Yes they are. But we also know that some will choose for, and some will choose against. That is determined by a person's inward intuition or predilection. I call it Predestination.
It is achieved when we prefer to be children of God, and reaches fruit-bearing status only when we begin to obey God's word, to follow God as our only God.
Jesus said that our work is to believe in him, which means to follow him. None of this means we're saved by works. It only means that Jesus alone did the work for our salvation, and that salvation results when we choose to follow him.
John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”