predestination vs freewill

HatedForNoReason · Jul 7, 2021

Ivon said:

https://www.gotquestions.org/free-from-sin.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/predestination-vs-free-will.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

SophieT · Jul 7, 2021

Evmur said:

I disagree

but I am not getting involved with Calvinism tennis

God begins in the OT and states: CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE

we are not puppets

Evmur · Jul 7, 2021

SophieT said:

I am not a puppet Sophie or a Calvinist ... You only get a choice if God gives you a choice it is a hard truth but a truth never-the-less that the Redskins or the Europeans of that generation did not get that choice, only the Jews. Failure to understand or even consider the Apostle Paul's teaching on predestination has led to many sore trials for the church.

It must exercise your mind for here you are.

SophieT · Jul 7, 2021

Evmur said:

sigh

I have heard every possible arguement for and against and have books on both subjects and have studied this subject

God doesn't create people just for hell which would be the end result of what you believe

thanks but no thanks...said politely but firmly

OneOfHis · Jul 7, 2021

Ivon said:

I feel like you made a false assumption when you say they contradict eachother. If when God made me, He made me with the freedom to choose, but also knowing exactly what I would do at every moment and having already accounted for all of that, it doesn't take away 1% of my free choice in the moment.

If I had no choice, I have a feeling I would've done a lot better. God tempts no man but I have chosen bad (or even chose simply to NOT do good when the chance was there) many times when I knew better.

I also have been delivered from temptation when the new heart God gave me wanted righteousness over temporal pleasures.

I think for me, it will be more fruitful to try to be present in the moment, stay in prayer and keep Him close, so when choices are before me I am more focused on seeking His will in my life than any thing else.

peldom10 · Jul 7, 2021

Ivon said:

Suggest you validate your inclusion of pre-destination. The Bible does not support conclusion as you are associating it with.

If there was/is pre-destination then please explain why Christ had to offer His life on the cross.....for what purpose? Further, why must we abide by God;s commandments...for what purpose? Why must Christ return to pass judgement on the born again.....for what purpose?, etc....many examples.

Pre-destination is widely miss understood from scriptures. Example;...it is pre-determined that one will perish if non compliant with God's commandments. It is pre-determined that one can have faith of receiving eternal salvation...saved...if compliant with God's commandments, etc.

peldom10 · Jul 7, 2021

Teaching of pre-destination is a ...great deception...alluring Christians into a sense that they can live the secular live they want and still have a chance for eternal salvation.

If we marry that with the new age religion teaching....everyone will be saved....then their deception will be assured.

Don't fall for that malarkey.

SophieT · Jul 7, 2021

peldom10 said:

there have been some real doozy debates in this forum regarding Calvinism...predestination call it what you will

I have not heard or read where someone of that persuasion has said anything about universalism (everyone is saved)

however, believing God decides who will dwell with Him in eternity, saying we have no choice and we are predestined, sets up all kinds of problems. for one, those not going to heaven go to hell which means they were created to go to hell. second, no matter how much someone wants to believe? God will not accept them and a whole slew of other similar situations

further, some have said, in times past, they are not Calvinists. well I don't know. if you believe what Calvinists believe, then it seems to me.....

I do not believe we have all our choices ordered for us and I do not believe Paul's words indicate that we do either. I think it a stretch to believe that considering how many times the Bible indicates we are to choose

as an anecdote, we have also gone into depth looking at Calvin's life. NOT to be emulated

ForestGreenCook · Jul 7, 2021

Adstar said:

I believe you have the Holy Spirits introduction to a person at the wrong time.. The person Must first Believe and accept Jesus as LORD and Messiah and then the Holy Spirit comes into them ( indwelling) as in the baptism of the Holy Spirit..

The Holy Spirit starts to work upon an individual before this event, ( from the outside if you like) moving them before they actually make the decision to accept the Word of God.. The Holy Spirit causes the lost individual to be convicted by preaching of the Gospel..

How do you interpret 1 Cor 2:14?

ForestGreenCook · Jul 7, 2021

throughfaith said:

Can you explain "begging the question"?

ForestGreenCook · Jul 7, 2021

SophieT said:

God has given the freedom to choose out his direction as he lives here in this world, but God does not give mankind the freedom to choose his eternal destination. That is given by God's sovereign grace, without the choice of mankind. Because mankind had the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life, mankind choose not to seek God, no, not even one. Psalms 14:2.

This is the reason that God choose an elect people out of those that did not seek him, to adopt as his children, and have Jesus to die for their sins as the adoption price, so that he would have a people that would praise and honor him and live with him in heaven.

ForestGreenCook · Jul 7, 2021

peldom10 said:

I agree that it is widely miss understood, and you are included in those that miss understand it.

Because God gave mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life, they, all of mankind, choose not to seek God. Psalms 14:2. That is the reason that God choose a portion out of those that choose not to seek him, and pre-determined that he would adopt them as his children. God sent his Son to earth to pay that adoption price by his death on the cross for those that he choose.

If you are going to understand the scriptures, you are going to have to include "all of the scriptures" without contradictions, including the scriptures that explain Predestination, and election.

God instructs his adopted children to follow his commandments and chastens them when the do not. There will not be a final judgement day for God's elect, because he judges them as they sojourn here on earth by his chastening.

SophieT · Jul 7, 2021

ForestGreenCook said:

God has given the freedom to choose out his direction as he lives here in this world, but God does not give mankind the freedom to choose his eternal destination. That is given by God's sovereign grace, without the choice of mankind. Because mankind had the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life, mankind choose not to seek God, no, not even one. Psalms 14:2.

This is the reason that God choose an elect people out of those that did not seek him, to adopt as his children, and have Jesus to die for their sins as the adoption price, so that he would have a people that would praise and honor him and live with him in heaven.

Calvinism

peldom10 · Jul 7, 2021

ForestGreenCook said:

I agree that it is widely miss understood, and you are included in those that miss understand it.

Because God gave mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life, they, all of mankind, choose not to seek God. Psalms 14:2. That is the reason that God choose a portion out of those that choose not to seek him, and pre-determined that he would adopt them as his children. God sent his Son to earth to pay that adoption price by his death on the cross for those that he choose.

If you are going to understand the scriptures, you are going to have to include "all of the scriptures" without contradictions, including the scriptures that explain Predestination, and election.

God instructs his adopted children to follow his commandments and chastens them when the do not. There will not be a final judgement day for God's elect, because he judges them as they sojourn here on earth by his chastening.

Study and follow the KJV 1611 edition. I would have no idea of the bible you choose. Your belief defies even logic let alone reasonable Bible interpretation.

MatthewKJV · Jul 8, 2021

@Ivon
Hi man, freewill&predestination don't contradict that's a false dichotomy!
=> God sees the future.
=> God sees all the future very real choices people will freely personally choose to make.
(out of their own individual conscious freewill)
=> With this foreknowledge of everyone's future choices: God predestinates.

That's all. Imagine if right now you had a true vision that a week from now I'm gonna eat an apple at this same hour;
=> In this hypothetical what you saw in that vision was the choice I'm gonna choose to make in a week.

One doesn't prevent the other.

Evmur · Jul 8, 2021

SophieT said:

I am very glad for this reply. I notice that you take your time before responding so you think carefully.

This gives me the opportunity to refute absolutely the abhorrent doctrine that God created or predestined anybody for hell.

... but just a minute, you have fallen into the same hole Calvin fell into. People slambaste Calvin but then make the same assumption that he made i.e that believing the bible doctrine of predestination necessarily leads to the logical conclusion that since God predestined us He must have by default predestined all others unto damnation.

I have never read Calvin, his face tells me that he was a most unhappy man. But of course I know the doctrine and I re-acted just the same as everybody else ... horror

But this cannot, must not cause us to throw out predestination for it is there along with ELECTION as a major part of bible theology.

I cried to the Lord about it.

My starting point with God is ALWAYS God is Love, all His ways are peace and mercy, always. So how can it be Lord I begged that You could have predestined any to hell?

Now God can't take us on in a particular area if we refuse His word, He will not teach us until we acknowledge His word to be true. Having acknowledged the truth of predestination and election the first thing I saw was that these doctrines do NOT pertain to salvation per se. They pertain to our being part of His body the church ... others can still be saved, in fact THAT'S what we's chosen for, to be a city set upon a hill that men who are lost may find their way.

So predestination and election FAR, FAR from being a barrier to anybody else being saved is the very instrument that God has chosen for the inclusion of the greatest number of people who can be reached and saved.

And people may not even join the church but they can be saved.

I have more to say on this subject.

SophieT · Jul 8, 2021

Evmur said:

I am very glad for this reply. I notice that you take your time before responding so you think carefully.

This gives me the opportunity to refute absolutely the abhorrent doctrine that God created or predestined anybody for hell.

... but just a minute, you have fallen into the same hole Calvin fell into. People slambaste Calvin but then make the same assumption that he made i.e that believing the bible doctrine of predestination necessarily leads to the logical conclusion that since God predestined us He must have by default predestined all others unto damnation.

I have never read Calvin, his face tells me that he was a most unhappy man. But of course I know the doctrine and I re-acted just the same as everybody else ... horror

But this cannot, must not cause us to throw out predestination for it is there along with ELECTION as a major part of bible theology.

I cried to the Lord about it.

My starting point with God is ALWAYS God is Love, all His ways are peace and mercy, always. So how can it be Lord I begged that You could have predestined any to hell?

Now God can't take us on in a particular area if we refuse His word, He will not teach us until we acknowledge His word to be true. Having acknowledged the truth of predestination and election the first thing I saw was that these doctrines do NOT pertain to salvation per se. They pertain to our being part of His body the church ... others can still be saved, in fact THAT'S what we's chosen for, to be a city set upon a hill that men who are lost may find their way.

So predestination and election FAR, FAR from being a barrier to anybody else being saved is the very instrument that God has chosen for the inclusion of the greatest number of people who can be reached and saved.

And people may not even join the church but they can be saved.

I have more to say on this subject.

thanks for your kind and very polite reply. I really do not have time to delve into this with you at the moment, but I wanted you to know I have seen your post and will get back to you

I really need to get the house out from under the disarray it is currently in, so later

SophieT · Jul 8, 2021

Evmur, post: 4596245, member: 305591"]... but just a minute, you have fallen into the same hole Calvin fell into. People slambaste Calvin but then make the same assumption that he made i.e that believing the bible doctrine of predestination necessarily leads to the logical conclusion that since God predestined us He must have by default predestined all others unto damnation.

on what do you base that? I have not made any 'assumption'. what I said, was what Calvin said and actual Calvinists say. I was not saying it is my belief. I was saying that is one reason (among others) I do not and would not follow Calvinism. Please do not make assumptions regarding my thoughts or we are going to have a very difficult exchange and as so many on this forum assume so much, I have grown more than a little tired of it and might just not bother to discuss this with you.

"Evmur, post: 4596245, member: 305591"]I have never read Calvin, his face tells me that he was a most unhappy man. But of course I know the doctrine and I re-acted just the same as everybody else ... horror

maybe you do not know the doctrine as well as you think you do if you have never actually read or even studied it. on the other hand, I have gone into it in some detail. I guess you are saying here, that you came to some conclusions equivalent to Calvinism but without the 'bite'. you can state if that is true or not I guess

"Evmur, post: 4596245, member: 305591"]My starting point with God is ALWAYS God is Love, all His ways are peace and mercy, always. So how can it be Lord I begged that You could have predestined any to hell?

I have a bit of a different starting point. Truth. yes, God is love...and all He does exemplifies His love. even His wrath. I could add that to me, truth IS love as anything but truth, even if it hurts, is misleading and not God

"Evmur, post: 4596245, member: 305591"]Now God can't take us on in a particular area if we refuse His word, He will not teach us until we acknowledge His word to be true. Having acknowledged the truth of predestination and election the first thing I saw was that these doctrines do NOT pertain to salvation per se. They pertain to our being part of His body the church ... others can still be saved, in fact THAT'S what we's chosen for, to be a city set upon a hill that men who are lost may find their way.

ha...many of us have learned the hard way the truth of the word of God BECAUSE we would not acknowledge it as such. we can even see that truth in scripture...but perhaps your experience is different. I am no stranger to what scripture states regarding predestination and election and think that as God knows the beginning and the end, He can state what we cannot always understand.

So, if we are a part of His body and it is not 'the end' then of course there are others who are yet to be saved and perhaps even born.

I find your explanation, which I have heard before, somewhat sketch to tell you the truth. It does not quite satisfy or harmonize other scriptures that are loud and clear on 'choosing.' IMO

"Evmur, post: 4596245, member: 305591"]So predestination and election FAR, FAR from being a barrier to anybody else being saved is the very instrument that God has chosen for the inclusion of the greatest number of people who can be reached and saved.

I still do not see any reconciliation with choice. God said choose over and over again to the Israelites so I doubt He has somehow become in charge of our making our minds up now

Magenta · Jul 8, 2021

Ivon said:

Free will (in terms of how people generally use the term) is not mentioned in the Bible.

Personally, I do not care for the term, since man's will is constrained by many factors.

Magenta · Jul 8, 2021

Evmur said:

Is this a new word?

I approve

Not of slambasting, per se, but of your ingenuity

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