Predestination is misunderstood...
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first to say "as for me and my house we serve the Lord" is a world of difference from saying "we choose to serve the Lord" see the difference one word makes?
secondly who chooses? who has been given the choice? the Red Indians? did they get to choose? the Chinese?
No it was Israel and they did not choose God He chose them. Same with us "not that we loved God but He first loved us" the NT never speaks about human freewill, how about that? you'd think by reading Christian literature it was on every page and paragraph, never says we chose God but ALWAYS God chose us.
Jesus never said to anyone "make a decision" He said "follow Me"
Thirdly what are the choices put before us? obey and live or rebel and die.
If you obey and live that's God's will
If you rebel and die dead men have no choices.
secondly who chooses? who has been given the choice? the Red Indians? did they get to choose? the Chinese?
No it was Israel and they did not choose God He chose them. Same with us "not that we loved God but He first loved us" the NT never speaks about human freewill, how about that? you'd think by reading Christian literature it was on every page and paragraph, never says we chose God but ALWAYS God chose us.
Jesus never said to anyone "make a decision" He said "follow Me"
Thirdly what are the choices put before us? obey and live or rebel and die.
If you obey and live that's God's will
If you rebel and die dead men have no choices.
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I'm not sure where this thread is going. Early on, post #8 “God chose us out from all those whom He knew would believe”, seemed to take grace out of the picture. He did not choose us because He knew that we would believe, His choice was not based on any merit in us at all.
Election is not based on foreseen faith. He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4). In other words, He will bring us to Himself through the death and resurrection of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit. I know this is a hard saying, but God does not have mercy on all. He provides grace to some and hardens others.
In addition to setting this early tone for this discussion, you seem intent on bashing those who tend to agree with early reformers, not just Calvin! I'm not here to claim that they were perfect. However, they got it right most of the time.
Just my opinion! A Potato-Head like myself will never intentionally try to mislead you!
Election is not based on foreseen faith. He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4). In other words, He will bring us to Himself through the death and resurrection of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit. I know this is a hard saying, but God does not have mercy on all. He provides grace to some and hardens others.
In addition to setting this early tone for this discussion, you seem intent on bashing those who tend to agree with early reformers, not just Calvin! I'm not here to claim that they were perfect. However, they got it right most of the time.
Just my opinion! A Potato-Head like myself will never intentionally try to mislead you!
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And what scripture do you base that on, beside Rom 1, I have already told you that you are misinterpreting it.
The natural man, before he has been regenerated, receiveth not the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them. Why is it that you reject this simple and accurately written scripture? If you can find a scripture, beside Rom 1, that you have misinterpreted, that upholds your theory, I would be interested in knowing where it is located.
First off... We are not saved by "works."
The Jews stuck under the religious degeneracy of the Pharisees were always seeking new works to do to inherit eternal life.
Even the rich young ruler came to Jesus seeking for Jesus to tell him about some new work to do.
This is where we (the church) flew off the radar map....
"WORKS" was a religious system devised by religious men!
WORKS was list of prescribed deeds to do, as to win the approval of God.
Its why Jesus hated the Pharisees so much.
For they were evil. Evil contradicts the truth and wants to replace it.
That is the kind of "WORKS" we are not saved by.
The RELIGIOUS - man devised - SYSTEM of WORKS!
Have you ever noticed when reading the Bible?
Jesus said there is one work (not plural) approved by God. A singular work that God accepts to His approval....
Just one work!
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son
Believing is not doing works of religion.
Believing is ONE work we must do to be saved!
TULIP causes spiritual cancer.
It turns off the thinking brain, making the victim unable to think with the Word of God.
Believing = FAITH.
There you have it.
And, God sovereignly had me to say it to you....
grace and peace .................
The Jews stuck under the religious degeneracy of the Pharisees were always seeking new works to do to inherit eternal life.
Even the rich young ruler came to Jesus seeking for Jesus to tell him about some new work to do.
This is where we (the church) flew off the radar map....
"WORKS" was a religious system devised by religious men!
WORKS was list of prescribed deeds to do, as to win the approval of God.
Its why Jesus hated the Pharisees so much.
For they were evil. Evil contradicts the truth and wants to replace it.
That is the kind of "WORKS" we are not saved by.
The RELIGIOUS - man devised - SYSTEM of WORKS!
Have you ever noticed when reading the Bible?
Jesus said there is one work (not plural) approved by God. A singular work that God accepts to His approval....
Just one work!
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son
of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plural) God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:27-29
Believing is not doing works of religion.
Believing is ONE work we must do to be saved!
TULIP causes spiritual cancer.
It turns off the thinking brain, making the victim unable to think with the Word of God.
Believing = FAITH.
There you have it.
And, God sovereignly had me to say it to you....
grace and peace .................
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I am stunned with all the rambling that you just went through! Please highlight the portion of my post that mentioned WORKS in any way, shape, or form!
Maybe you are saying the early reformers thought that works were needed for salvation. If so, then you need to read what they have to say, because they all agree man's works count for nothing.
As for your statement:
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plural) God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:27-29
I totally agree. However, as ForestGreenCook posted earlier “The natural man, before he has been regenerated, receiveth not the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them”. In other words think (T), we are totally depraved. On second thought don't do that, It may make you think of Calvin!
God must therefore give us a new heart of flesh that we may hear, believe, and put our trust in him alone, in other words “believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:27-29. Without the work of the Spirit this could never happen. Therefore, there is no room to boast in yourself!
You might try studying the early reformers. You might just learn something!
Maybe you are saying the early reformers thought that works were needed for salvation. If so, then you need to read what they have to say, because they all agree man's works count for nothing.
As for your statement:
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plural) God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:27-29
I totally agree. However, as ForestGreenCook posted earlier “The natural man, before he has been regenerated, receiveth not the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them”. In other words think (T), we are totally depraved. On second thought don't do that, It may make you think of Calvin!
God must therefore give us a new heart of flesh that we may hear, believe, and put our trust in him alone, in other words “believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:27-29. Without the work of the Spirit this could never happen. Therefore, there is no room to boast in yourself!
You might try studying the early reformers. You might just learn something!
It's very dangerous to base an interpretation of Scripture on only three words or one verse. Study the context. That being said, "in him" or "in Christ" are favorite phrases of Paul. They mean the spiritual connection we have with Christ, something like being the branches connected with the central vine, which gives life and nourishment to the branches (John 15). Thus, God chose us to be connected with Jesus, his death and resurrection that operate in our lives to cleanse and empower us. Certainly, before he made everything, we did not exist yet. Therefore, God saw us connected with Jesus as a result of his choice of us.
These twelve had not received the Holy Spirit, and yet, they believed and were baptized unto John's baptism. These men received spiritual teaching from John the Baptist and were baptized according to John's teaching of repentance.
Acts 19:
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 19:
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
This is where my problem is with you.
Freedom to choose something may be Good for some things, but not all things.
I can't honestly fathom why someone would believe they could choose to walk away from Christ, and then would lose there salvation for doing so on top of that if they've been saved.
Ok scripture clearly says someone could abandon there faith.
But scripture does not clearly say Many things about that one sentence.
The questions you are asking is putting the emphasis on someone to decide there own fate.
A human mind is not capable to choose the right path without the lord to follow.
And I ain't harassing you.
The lord finds the Lost sheep that goes missing with his will, because that lost sheep has lost his will.
So free will does not apply to every single eventuality.
As for bringing predestination into the equation, the lord predestined Jonah in the whale for 3 days, because he was lost.
So again predestination and the will of the father came to his rescue.
Because once again the free will of a man was not enough.
Freedom to choose something may be Good for some things, but not all things.
I can't honestly fathom why someone would believe they could choose to walk away from Christ, and then would lose there salvation for doing so on top of that if they've been saved.
Ok scripture clearly says someone could abandon there faith.
But scripture does not clearly say Many things about that one sentence.
The questions you are asking is putting the emphasis on someone to decide there own fate.
A human mind is not capable to choose the right path without the lord to follow.
And I ain't harassing you.
The lord finds the Lost sheep that goes missing with his will, because that lost sheep has lost his will.
So free will does not apply to every single eventuality.
As for bringing predestination into the equation, the lord predestined Jonah in the whale for 3 days, because he was lost.
So again predestination and the will of the father came to his rescue.
Because once again the free will of a man was not enough.