Predestination is misunderstood...

[FollowerofShiloh]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?

14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It fulfills Isaiah

9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Paul explains it this way

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!

 

[Genez]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

The unbelievers sins will not be mentioned at their judgment. Do you believe this?
For the unbelievers sins were judged already. Do you believe this?

​

​

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. ​

And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged ​

according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. " Revelation 20:12​

​

Judged according to their 'works.' Not their sins.
How can that be if what you claim is truth?


And, what do you do when it says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world? Not just for our sins!

​

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only ​

for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

Your "human reasoning" is ignoring what God's Word is telling us.

And, in doing so?

You end up making those two passages?
Into being lies.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only ​

for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

​

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. ​

And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged ​

according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. " Rev 20:12​

This is the sort of thing that can rescue us from false teachings....

We all have been rescued at some point.

 

[CS1]

John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?

14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It fulfills Isaiah

9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Paul explains it this way

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!

Hold on, Paul said they were prevented from Believing and could very well come back. The work of the Cross opened the curtain so all could come.

in John 10 Jesus said :

I am the true Shepard
the good Shepard


as we read on :
pick up 19


19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.
24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt?

If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” (they had enough of Parbles it seems)

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe.
The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”


Jesus says something more



34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

Jesus, in the end, said they could believe in His works, but they would not. It is not that they could not.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Hold on, Paul said they were prevented from Believing and could very well come back. The work of the Cross opened the curtain so all could come.

in John 10 Jesus said :

I am the true Shepard
the good Shepard


as we read on :
pick up 19


19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.
24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt?

If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” (they had enough of Parbles it seems)

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe.
The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”


Jesus says something more



34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

Jesus, in the end, said they could believe in His works, but they would not. It is not that they could not.

I have no issue with your explanation.
I am addressing one who claims they cannot believe because Jesus specifically did not die for them.

Even Jesus Himself explained (in the verses below Matthew 13:14-15) to His Disciples why the Pharisees/Sadducees/Scribes could not understand His Parables.

Matthew 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’


And the Parable of the Sheep is a Parable. So the same principle remains.

 

[kinda]

Anyone who is interest in Jean Calvin, there is another thread in the Conspiracy Forum. Someone is calling a point in TULIP, the "doctrine of devils".

Those who are more informed about his teachings, can you please help out in the discussion. Thanks.

https://christianchat.com/conspirac...ment-to-this-tulip.214745/page-3#post-5285284

Not sure why, it was posted in the Conspiracy Forum, since it appears it's a Bible topic.

So, if anyone would like to respond to his latest post, please do so. He doesn't want to talk to me anymore, because he says, I'm putting words in his mouth.

"This is a quote I found on the internet.

John Calvin quote

John Calvin quote


John Calvin is perhaps best known for his doctrine of predestination. He taught that God determined before all time who would be eternally saved and who would be condemned to hell. Christians, he said, should not question God's plan, but rather trust in God's good intentions for their personal life and destiny.


So why have the people who wrote the tulip doctrine disobeyed There founder of there faith Jean Calvin, by writing a tulip doctrine that questions Gods authority."

https://christianchat.com/conspirac...-any-disagreement-to-this-tulip.214745/page-3

 

[Genez]

Thanks I've never come across this in my searches.

So it wasn't John Calvin that wrote it but a group of people following John Calvin.

Was John Calvin present at this hearing

He was dead already.

Calvin died... May 27, 1564 (age 54 years), Geneva, Switzerland

The Synod of Dort? 1618–1619,

He was DEAD! And, so is TULIP....

TULIP should really be called... "Parched lips"

Just like religious dummies goose stepped to the RCC dogma...
Another group followed the next religious tyranny.

No apologies from me.
Paul warned that there would be MANY false teachers to say what their many hearers wanted to hear.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

Many found Calvin easy to dance to and they loved his dragging beat.

TULIP supplied the perfect rationale and emotional salve to assuage their guilt feelings of for having hated the idea of believing in Jesus. "God has to make us all do it! I am not alone in that hatred I once had. "

If they only knew it was their flesh causing their soul to feel that way.. And, that God's power of grace that make the flesh to shut up, so their soul could make its own choice? They might even feel good about wanting for God to save them, without the breast beating and self loathing they suffer from.

God saved our SOUL! Not our flesh! God shut down the power of the flesh over our soul, so our soul could be free to choose.

Not all want to believe when grace is applied! Its really our choice to believe.

Unbelievers RESIST the drawing of God! Its not irresistible! They resist!

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. ​

You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was ​

there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed ​

those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you ​

have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law ​

that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.” Acts 7:51-53
​

They resisted so hard that they killed Stephen to get him to stop telling them truth!

Its not so much "total depravity." Its simply being willfully stupid.
They like the notion of total depravity. For it excuses their own personal stupidity.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, ​

but whoever hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1​

​

Before they were saved?
They were stubborn about worldly things.
After they became saved?
They found a new way to keep their stubbornness alive.

For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever ​

loses his life for my sake will find it." Matthew 16:25​

​

People who latch onto false teachings are seeking a place to keep their stubbornness alive.
Its makes them feel comfortable with themselves when they can prevail. Pride protection.

grace and peace.......

 

[brightfame52]

If someone is willing to surrender to Gods will God save them

They are already saved. God has already saved them when they are willing.

 

[brightfame52]

John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?

14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It fulfills Isaiah

9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Paul explains it this way

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

They are already saved. God has already saved them when they are willing.

According to scripture it says they have to turn from there wicked ways first which means to be willing first

 

[brightfame52]

The unbelievers sins will not be mentioned at their judgment. Do you believe this?
For the unbelievers sins were judged already. Do you believe this?

​

​

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. ​

And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged ​

according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. " Revelation 20:12​

​

Judged according to their 'works.' Not their sins.
How can that be if what you claim is truth?


And, what do you do when it says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world? Not just for our sins!

​

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only ​

for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

Your "human reasoning" is ignoring what God's Word is telling us.

And, in doing so?

You end up making those two passages?
Into being lies.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only ​

for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

​

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. ​

And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged ​

according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. " Rev 20:12​

This is the sort of thing that can rescue us from false teachings....

We all have been rescued at some point.

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

 

[brightfame52]

According to scripture it says they have to turn from there wicked ways first which means to be willing first

They are already saved. God has already saved them when they are willing.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?

14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It fulfills Isaiah

9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Paul explains it this way

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

They are already saved. God has already saved them when they are willing.

you may as well be telling me I'm backwards

 

[Genez]

They are already saved. God has already saved them when they are willing.

God had even saved Adolf Hitler.... Hitler was not willing.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, ​

who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10​

​

​

When it came to paying for the penalty for man's personal sins?
The Cross was all inclusive.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only ​

for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

Its not hard to understand what it says.
But, very difficult for some to admit it is true.

Yes... some people have swallowed a lie and refuse to admit it.
For, they liked the lie they accepted very much....
And, now fear the realization that they can be stupid when they felt something was so right.


I have been there myself. With me?
I was dumbfounded and frightened to realize how easy it is to be deceived...
But, glad when corrected.

Its the process of working out your salvation in fear and trembling.


grace and peace .......................

 

[brightfame52]

John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?

14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It fulfills Isaiah

9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Paul explains it this way

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

 

[brightfame52]

you may as well be telling me I'm backwards

They are already saved. God has already saved them when they are willing.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?

14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It fulfills Isaiah

9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Paul explains it this way

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!

 

[Genez]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

Unbelief is the consequences of being born with a sin nature in your flesh.

Only God's grace power can silence the flesh and allow the soul to have its say.

What happens when grace does silence the flesh?

And, the soul still wants to refuse?

Then that soul chooses just like the fallen angels did when they made their choice from a state of sinlessness.

In that case? That choice is not "sin."
That choice, under those conditions, is called "evil."

Jesus died for our sins.
Jesus did not die for evil.

For Jesus to die for evil he would have had to reject Himself while on the Cross....

Men go to Hell for evil. Not for sins.

We need to learn the difference...

 

[brightfame52]

John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?

14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It fulfills Isaiah

9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Paul explains it this way

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

 

[brightfame52]

Unbelief is the consequences of being born with a sin nature in your flesh.

Only God's grace power can silence the flesh and allow the soul to have its say.

What happens when grace does silence the flesh?

And, the soul still wants to refuse?

Then that soul chooses just like the fallen angels did when they made their choice from a state of sinlessness.

In that case? That choice is not "sin."
That choice, under those conditions, is called "evil."

Jesus died for our sins.
Jesus did not die for evil.

For Jesus to die for evil he would have had to reject Himself while on the Cross....

Men go to Hell for evil. Not for sins.

We need to learn the difference...

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin