Predestination is misunderstood...
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There are two kinds of Christians. There are do-gooders and there a be-gooders. And, while doing good doesn't generate being good, being good naturally generates doing good. For example, if a do-gooder goes around telling others to be good but he himself is not good even after all his doing, then his do-gooding is fruitless. But, if a be-gooder is good then his doings tell others that he is good , because his be-gooding is fruitful. You know.
I'm more inclined toward it being the lack of thinking in some cases. Strewth! If by my will I could have whatever my heart desired? Well, let's just say my creation would most probably break all the physical laws. I never was very good at physics. 
According how learning and understanding Scripture trained me, and caused me, to THINK!
Everything is not spelled out in black and white for our lives.
God gives everything we need in order to be able to form our own thinking.. which is according to the way faith transforms our minds.
You just do not have enough yet to follow what I am thinking. God would show you if you did.
We are not living in a pristine little world where everything is black and white.
"This goes here.. This goes there."
The danger is when we make excuses when we do not have enough to think with, and blame it on the other for making stuff up.
And, shut our mind.
...............
Jesus died for everyone's sins.
It placed them to be without excuse when sent to Hell.
For the real issue in salvation is not sin.
The issue is... "what think ye of Christ."
No one going to the Lake of Fire will have his sins mentioned in his judgment.
One work (not works) will be looked for and not found. Only one.
That is why the unbelievers will be evaluated only by their "works."
Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence,
See that?
That takes a while to sink in if you been covered in TULIPS.
grace and peace ................
It placed them to be without excuse when sent to Hell.
For the real issue in salvation is not sin.
The issue is... "what think ye of Christ."
No one going to the Lake of Fire will have his sins mentioned in his judgment.
One work (not works) will be looked for and not found. Only one.
Jesus replied, “This is the work of God—
that you believe in the One He has sent.” John 6:29
That is why the unbelievers will be evaluated only by their "works."
Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence,
and no place was found for them. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before
the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and
the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according
Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according
to their works. "
Revelation 20:11-13
See that?
....all were judged according to their works. "
No sins mentioned! Jesus paid and suffered that penalty on the Cross for all mankind.That takes a while to sink in if you been covered in TULIPS.
grace and peace ................
John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?
14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
It fulfills Isaiah
9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'
Paul explains it this way
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?
14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
It fulfills Isaiah
9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'
Paul explains it this way
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!
Total depravity Gen. 2:17. Does Gen. 2:17 say that after Adam's eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, all humans are conceived and born totally depraved, i.e. with every faculty corrupted and unable to do anything good?
Gen 2:15-17
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What does the text say?
!. After making Adam, God put him in Eden.
2. God gave Adan a responsibility to fulfil, to dress and keep it.
3. God gave Adam permission to eat from every tree in the garden except one., the tree of the knowledge of eood and Evil.
4. God told Adam that within a "YoM" of eating the forbidden tree, he would die.
5. During creation in chapter 1, and 2:1-3 each YoM was defined as including one evening and one morning. Possibly , either a period of daylight ending in evening and a period of darkness ending in morning; or possibly a period of darkness beginning with evening followed by a period of light beginning with morning. The Jewish teachers were divided on whether the "YoM" began at darkness of began dawn. But either way, it was a 24 hour day. The creation narrative of Chapter 1 to 2:3 was possibly being described from the creation's perspective rather than God's. A YoM was therefore probably the 24 hour light and dark cycle.
6. Chapter 2:4 -25 is possibly being described from God's perspective, so that a Yom could be one of God's days of 1000 years. The second creation account starts with "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, IN THE YoM that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. " It seems to me that this YoM , or time interval, includes at least the five days of creation preceding the creation of man, and probably also includes the sixth, so it is not a 24 hour YoM. Peter writes of God having days/YoMiYM that are 100 of our years. Since 2:4 says that days 1-5 of chapter 1 happened in one day in chapter 2, it is not possible that a YoM in chapter 2 is a 24 hour day, and would likely be a 1000 yer long day, since Adam died within 930 years of stealing the forbidden fruit, and as we will see, God had warned Adam that he would "to die be dying" in the YoM he ate the fruit.
v5. And every plant of the field before it was being (qal incomplete, imperfect) in the earth, and every herb of the field before it was growing (qal incomplete, imperfect). For the LORD had not caused it to rain (hiphil complete, pluperfect)., and [there was] no man to till the earth.
v6. And-a-mist was going up )incomplete, imperfect) from the ground and-was-watering (weqatall perfect sequential, hence an imperfect sense) the whole face of the ground.
v7. And-had-formed (qal wayiqtol, imperfect sequential therefore a completed sense) the LORD a man of the dust of the ground, and-had-breathed (qal wayiqtol, imperfect, hence an opposite completed sense) into his nostrils the breath of life; and-had-become the man (wayiqtol imperfect sequential, therefore an opposite completed sense) a living soul.
v8. And-had-planted (qal wayiqtol, incomplete sequential, therefore an opposite completed sense) the LORD God a garden in Eden eastward and-he-had-put (qal wayiqtol imperfect, hence an opposite completed sense) there the man whom he-had-formed (qal perfect, no waw, therefore the actual completed sense).
v9. And-had-made-grow (hiphil wayiqtol imperfect sequential, hence the opposite perfect meaning) the LORD God out of the ground every tree pleasant to the sight and good for food. And-the-tree of life in the midst of the garden, and-the-tree-of the knowledge of good and evil.
v10. And-a-river going out (qal participle absolute) of Eden for to water the garden. And-from-thence it-was-parting (Niphal imperfect) and-was-becoming (qal weqatal perfect sequential, therefore opposite imperfect sense) into four heads.
v11 The name of the first [was] Pison, that compassing (qal participle absolute) the whole land of Havilah, where [was] gold.
v.12 The gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone.
v13. And-the-name of the second river [was] Gihon: the same [was] it compassing (qal participle absolute) the whole land of Ethiopia.
v14. And-the-name of the third river [was] Hiddekel, that going (qal participle absolute) toward the east of Assyria. And-the-river fourth [was] Euphrates.
v15. And-had-taken (qal wayiqtol imperfect, therefore an opposite completed sense) the LORD God the man, and-had-put-him (hiphil wayiqtol imperfect, therefore with a completed sense in the garden of Eden to dress it (qal infinitive construct) and to keep it (qal infinitive construct).
v16. And-commanded (piel sequential imperfect, therefore an opposite completed sense) the LORD God the man saying (qal infinitive construct) , "Of every tree of the garden you will be eating (qal imperfect ) freely:
v.17 But-of-the-tree of the knowledge of good and evil you-shall-not-be-eating (qal imperfect) of it: for in the YoM that you eat (qal infinitive construct) from it to die (qal infinitive absolute) you-shall-be-dying (qal imperfect)."
The chains of sequential verbs that follow the rules for sequential chains of waw-prefixed verbs are in colours and bold. The first verb in a chain is waw-less. Subsequent verbs added to that chain have a waw prefix but are in the opposite aspect to their apparent form. A chain is broken by any verb without waw. And a new chain or waw-prefixed verbs follows until the next waw-less verb.
From this we see that God forewarned Adam that in the YoM Adam ate the fruit he would "to die be dying", which sounds to me like dying slowly until completely dead. So, he did not die immediately when he ate. He began to die, and died at age 930 years. Gen 2:17 does not support the Calvinist claims made about it: that Adam died immediately and was therefore incapable of doing any good. And their claim that we similarly are conceived already dead and incapable of doing good. We begin to die when we are conceived, and eventually die in physical death.
Now, it is in Charlie's court to explain how Gen. 2:17 says we descendants of Adam are afflicted with total depravity from conception. If his very first listed ext is spurious, the rest are likely to also be spurious.
Gen 2:15-17
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What does the text say?
!. After making Adam, God put him in Eden.
2. God gave Adan a responsibility to fulfil, to dress and keep it.
3. God gave Adam permission to eat from every tree in the garden except one., the tree of the knowledge of eood and Evil.
4. God told Adam that within a "YoM" of eating the forbidden tree, he would die.
5. During creation in chapter 1, and 2:1-3 each YoM was defined as including one evening and one morning. Possibly , either a period of daylight ending in evening and a period of darkness ending in morning; or possibly a period of darkness beginning with evening followed by a period of light beginning with morning. The Jewish teachers were divided on whether the "YoM" began at darkness of began dawn. But either way, it was a 24 hour day. The creation narrative of Chapter 1 to 2:3 was possibly being described from the creation's perspective rather than God's. A YoM was therefore probably the 24 hour light and dark cycle.
6. Chapter 2:4 -25 is possibly being described from God's perspective, so that a Yom could be one of God's days of 1000 years. The second creation account starts with "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, IN THE YoM that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. " It seems to me that this YoM , or time interval, includes at least the five days of creation preceding the creation of man, and probably also includes the sixth, so it is not a 24 hour YoM. Peter writes of God having days/YoMiYM that are 100 of our years. Since 2:4 says that days 1-5 of chapter 1 happened in one day in chapter 2, it is not possible that a YoM in chapter 2 is a 24 hour day, and would likely be a 1000 yer long day, since Adam died within 930 years of stealing the forbidden fruit, and as we will see, God had warned Adam that he would "to die be dying" in the YoM he ate the fruit.
v5. And every plant of the field before it was being (qal incomplete, imperfect) in the earth, and every herb of the field before it was growing (qal incomplete, imperfect). For the LORD had not caused it to rain (hiphil complete, pluperfect)., and [there was] no man to till the earth.
v6. And-a-mist was going up )incomplete, imperfect) from the ground and-was-watering (weqatall perfect sequential, hence an imperfect sense) the whole face of the ground.
v7. And-had-formed (qal wayiqtol, imperfect sequential therefore a completed sense) the LORD a man of the dust of the ground, and-had-breathed (qal wayiqtol, imperfect, hence an opposite completed sense) into his nostrils the breath of life; and-had-become the man (wayiqtol imperfect sequential, therefore an opposite completed sense) a living soul.
v8. And-had-planted (qal wayiqtol, incomplete sequential, therefore an opposite completed sense) the LORD God a garden in Eden eastward and-he-had-put (qal wayiqtol imperfect, hence an opposite completed sense) there the man whom he-had-formed (qal perfect, no waw, therefore the actual completed sense).
v9. And-had-made-grow (hiphil wayiqtol imperfect sequential, hence the opposite perfect meaning) the LORD God out of the ground every tree pleasant to the sight and good for food. And-the-tree of life in the midst of the garden, and-the-tree-of the knowledge of good and evil.
v10. And-a-river going out (qal participle absolute) of Eden for to water the garden. And-from-thence it-was-parting (Niphal imperfect) and-was-becoming (qal weqatal perfect sequential, therefore opposite imperfect sense) into four heads.
v11 The name of the first [was] Pison, that compassing (qal participle absolute) the whole land of Havilah, where [was] gold.
v.12 The gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone.
v13. And-the-name of the second river [was] Gihon: the same [was] it compassing (qal participle absolute) the whole land of Ethiopia.
v14. And-the-name of the third river [was] Hiddekel, that going (qal participle absolute) toward the east of Assyria. And-the-river fourth [was] Euphrates.
v15. And-had-taken (qal wayiqtol imperfect, therefore an opposite completed sense) the LORD God the man, and-had-put-him (hiphil wayiqtol imperfect, therefore with a completed sense in the garden of Eden to dress it (qal infinitive construct) and to keep it (qal infinitive construct).
v16. And-commanded (piel sequential imperfect, therefore an opposite completed sense) the LORD God the man saying (qal infinitive construct) , "Of every tree of the garden you will be eating (qal imperfect ) freely:
v.17 But-of-the-tree of the knowledge of good and evil you-shall-not-be-eating (qal imperfect) of it: for in the YoM that you eat (qal infinitive construct) from it to die (qal infinitive absolute) you-shall-be-dying (qal imperfect)."
The chains of sequential verbs that follow the rules for sequential chains of waw-prefixed verbs are in colours and bold. The first verb in a chain is waw-less. Subsequent verbs added to that chain have a waw prefix but are in the opposite aspect to their apparent form. A chain is broken by any verb without waw. And a new chain or waw-prefixed verbs follows until the next waw-less verb.
From this we see that God forewarned Adam that in the YoM Adam ate the fruit he would "to die be dying", which sounds to me like dying slowly until completely dead. So, he did not die immediately when he ate. He began to die, and died at age 930 years. Gen 2:17 does not support the Calvinist claims made about it: that Adam died immediately and was therefore incapable of doing any good. And their claim that we similarly are conceived already dead and incapable of doing good. We begin to die when we are conceived, and eventually die in physical death.
Now, it is in Charlie's court to explain how Gen. 2:17 says we descendants of Adam are afflicted with total depravity from conception. If his very first listed ext is spurious, the rest are likely to also be spurious.
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They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin
-
1
- Show all
They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin
This verse doesn't say Jesus never died for them this reply is depraving the depraved
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
seems odd that Jesus would say your not my sheep if he never wanted people to be his sheep.
also it seems od that Jesus would say my sheep here my voice and they follow me if he didn't want to be heard by the unbelievers.
i mean you don't tell an unbeliever this if you've no intent of making them understand why there not your sheep.
but you choose to see it's means only one thing.
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
seems odd that Jesus would say your not my sheep if he never wanted people to be his sheep.
also it seems od that Jesus would say my sheep here my voice and they follow me if he didn't want to be heard by the unbelievers.
i mean you don't tell an unbeliever this if you've no intent of making them understand why there not your sheep.
but you choose to see it's means only one thing.
. It says here in a.calvinist belief
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-is-tulip-in-calvinism.html
What Is Unconditional Election in TULIP?
The phrase unconditional election screams predestination to opponents of Calvinism and comforts its proponents. Unconditional election is faith that God has predestined those who have and will surrender to the Lord Jesus. Calvinists
It says here in a Calvinist belief Jesus is willing to save anyone willing to surrender to him.
So how can anyone be totally depraved and unable to respond to God.
Because here it's saying if you are willing.
So how is it you can even be willing if your unable to respond.
Because this is what I've been hearing from other calvinists here
I've also been hearing no-one has been saved in 6000 years from Calvinists or even spoke to Jesus in 2000 years
Because there saying they where chosen to be saved before the fall.
But here in this Calvinist belief it's saying if you are willing to surrender to be saved he will save you.
So why are you all saying different things.
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-is-tulip-in-calvinism.html
What Is Unconditional Election in TULIP?
The phrase unconditional election screams predestination to opponents of Calvinism and comforts its proponents. Unconditional election is faith that God has predestined those who have and will surrender to the Lord Jesus. Calvinists
It says here in a Calvinist belief Jesus is willing to save anyone willing to surrender to him.
So how can anyone be totally depraved and unable to respond to God.
Because here it's saying if you are willing.
So how is it you can even be willing if your unable to respond.
Because this is what I've been hearing from other calvinists here
I've also been hearing no-one has been saved in 6000 years from Calvinists or even spoke to Jesus in 2000 years
Because there saying they where chosen to be saved before the fall.
But here in this Calvinist belief it's saying if you are willing to surrender to be saved he will save you.
So why are you all saying different things.
They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin