Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[Amanuensis]

This is a classic example of taking something that was meant for a specific time and place and thinking it's for all places and all times.

If you look at all the times tongues is mentioned in the New Testament and compare that with how often things like faith, hope, or love are mentioned it's not even close. After 1 Corinthians tongues is never mentioned again in any of Paul's epistles.

On the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, When the people gathered around and heard them speak in tongues, Peter later said "this that you see and hear".. and then... "And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Now by saying this the scriptures declare that this is for all people for all time. Once we read this and digest it and let it sink down into our hearts it is impossible to declare that it was not for all people for all time. To make that decision is to reject revelation from God and to do so is usually based on an impure motive.

An impure motive such as "what will people think of me if I speak in tongues" And then letting that impure motive lead you to reject the plain sense of the scripture that the promise as evidenced by what they saw and HEARD (i.e speaking in tongues) was available to them, their children and all that are afar off as many as the Lord shall call.

To make it mean something else with creative forms of interpretation springs from a motive of being ashamed of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in many cases. This is classic example among non Pentecostals.

 

[ResidentAlien]

If you think the Pentecostal Church had sketchy origins, what about the Anglican Church and the Lutheran Church???????????

The Anglican Church, originally the Church of England, was founded by King Henry VIII a mass murderer!!!!!!!!

The Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, the same man who wrote a manifesto entitled, "OnThe Jews and Their Lies'. This manifesto encouraged the mass murder of the Jews, the burning of their synagogues, and the confiscation of all their property. Hitler and his Nazi barbarians loved to cite Luther as justification for their treatment of Jews.

That's right, Luther advocated the mass extermination of the Jews!!!!!!!!!!!! Anti-semitism: Martin Luther And Adolf Hitler - Free Essay Example - Edubirdie

Yes, many others have sketchy origins but that doesn't let the Pentecostal founders off the hook.

 

[JTB]

This is a classic example of taking something that was meant for a specific time and place and thinking it's for all places and all times.

If you look at all the times tongues is mentioned in the New Testament and compare that with how often things like faith, hope, or love are mentioned it's not even close. After 1 Corinthians tongues is never mentioned again in any of Paul's epistles.

What part of DO NOT FORBID do you not understand?

I don't see a "Best By" date on any scripture

 

[CS1]

If you think the Pentecostal Church had sketchy origins, what about the Anglican Church and the Lutheran Church???????????

The Anglican Church, originally the Church of England, was founded by King Henry VIII a mass murderer!!!!!!!!

The Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, the same man who wrote a manifesto entitled, "OnThe Jews and Their Lies'. This manifesto encouraged the mass murder of the Jews, the burning of their synagogues, and the confiscation of all their property. Hitler and his Nazi barbarians loved to cite Luther as justification for their treatment of Jews.

That's right, Luther advocated the mass extermination of the Jews!!!!!!!!!!!! Anti-semitism: Martin Luther And Adolf Hitler - Free Essay Example - Edubirdie

FYI the issue is not Anglican, Baptist, or Pentacostel. None get you saved. It is Jesus Christ alone who saved us by grace through faith,
there will be those who are members of each of them that Jesus will say to them " I never knew you".

 

[JTB]

On the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, When the people gathered around and heard them speak in tongues, Peter later said "this that you see and hear".. and then... "And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Now by saying this the scriptures declare that this is for all people for all time. Once we read this and digest it and let it sink down into our hearts it is impossible to declare that it was not for all people for all time. To make that decision is to reject revelation from God and to do so is usually based on an impure motive.

An impure motive such as "what will people think of me if I speak in tongues" And then letting that impure motive lead you to reject the plain sense of the scripture that the promise as evidenced by what they saw and HEARD (i.e speaking in tongues) was available to them, their children and all that are afar off as many as the Lord shall call.

To make it mean something else with creative forms of interpretation springs from a motive of being ashamed of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in many cases. This is classic example among non Pentecostals.

Good answer. But I would caveat that not all resistance is born of shame. I think many see a false manifestation and in their spirit they know it is false. So then their HUMAN side kicks in and says 'well if that was false it is all false'.

Which is itself false.

 

[arthurfleminger]

If you think the Pentecostal Church had sketchy origins, what about the Anglican Church and the Lutheran Church???????????

The Anglican Church, originally the Church of England, was founded by King Henry VIII a mass murderer!!!!!!!!

The Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, the same man who wrote a manifesto entitled, "OnThe Jews and Their Lies'. This manifesto encouraged the mass murder of the Jews, the burning of their synagogues, and the confiscation of all their property. Hitler and his Nazi barbarians loved to cite Luther as justification for their treatment of Jews.

That's right, Luther advocated the mass extermination of the Jews!!!!!!!!!!!! Anti-semitism: Martin Luther And Adolf Hitler - Free Essay Example - Edubirdie

So, if you think that the Pentecostal, Lutheran, and Anglican Churches had sketchy starts, what about the Seventh Day Adventist Church and the Church of Latter Day Saints?

Ellen White, the founder of Seventh Day Adventist movement made many wrong prophesies about the world ending in her own lifetime, yet we are still here and she is dead and gone. Ellen Whites many false prophesies about many things are easily searchable on line. Read about Ellen White: False Prophecies and Teachings of Ellen G. White – James Attebury (wordpress.com)

As per Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormor/LDS Church he was a charlatan. Joseph Smith dabbled in the occult, as did his entire family. He had quite a reputation and earned money as a money-digger/treasure-hunter, and he was seriously obsessed with occult symbols and astrology and the like. Read about Joseph Smith: Joseph Smith and The Occult (jesus-is-savior.com)

 

[ResidentAlien]

What part of DO NOT FORBID do you not understand?

I don't see a "Best By" date on any scripture

You're focused on one tiny scripture and ignoring all the rest.

 

[arthurfleminger]

FYI the issue is not Anglican, Baptist, or Pentacostel. None get you saved. It is Jesus Christ alone who saved us by grace through faith,
there will be those who are members of each of them that Jesus will say to them " I never knew you".

Actually, the Church is very important. In fact Jesus founded the Church, promised that He would be with it until the end of time, promised to send the Holy Spirit to the Church to lead it to all truth, and promised that Satan would not prevail against the Church. If the Church isn't important, then why did Jesus found His Church and make so many promises to it? Or, do you think He was just off on a tangent?

 

[JTB]

You're focused on one tiny scripture and ignoring all the rest.

No, not at all

 

[ResidentAlien]

A lot of people keep saying yeah, so what. Why should it matter if the early Pentecostals were scoundrels? It wouldn't except for one thing: If the Pentecostal church would repent and denounce the errors their early founders passed down to them it would be one thing. But the fact is they haven't and they won't. They persist in their error; and that error has birthed other groups with even worse errors.

 

[Amanuensis]

A lot of people keep saying yeah, so what. Why should it matter if the early Pentecostals were scoundrels? It wouldn't except for one thing: If the Pentecostal church would repent and denounce the errors their early founders passed down to them it would be one thing. But the fact is they haven't and they won't. They persist in their error; and that error has birthed other groups with even worse errors.

Like which ones? The Latter Rain movement. It was spoken against as soon as it came out as not having solid scriptural support. There have always been people in the pentecostal movement who considered it subjective interpretation and not worthy of a doctrinal statement and therefore it is not found in most belief statements of the larger Pentecostal orgainizations.

And almost every example of a shady character you can present was confronted by the larger body of Pentecostals in their own lifetime and ministry. Which is why so much can be read about the scandals.

Of course they denounce errors and scoundrels when they crop up. You can find position papers that reject various false teachings that cropped up in the historical accounts. Laughing, barking, and various other nonsense has been rejected by the main body of Pentecostals like the AG and they have written statements that tell you their positions when these things become a known issue in their history.

If you are not aware of the many statements released to denounce these errors then you have just not read enough history yet.

I bet that just about any example of error and extremism or false teacher you can bring up there is a statement to be found from their ordaining organization that rejects their teaching or bad example. They pull credentials on these guys all the time.

That is why their are so many independents, no one to answer to.

 

[CS1]

Actually, the Church is very important. In fact Jesus founded the Church, promised that He would be with it until the end of time, promised to send the Holy Spirit to the Church to lead it to all truth, and promised that Satan would not prevail against the Church. If the Church isn't important, then why did Jesus found His Church and make so many promises to it? Or, do you think He was just off on a tangent?

the church IS not the name on the building it is the church which is the body of Christ and HE is the head of it.

 

[JTB]

A lot of people keep saying yeah, so what. Why should it matter if the early Pentecostals were scoundrels? It wouldn't except for one thing: If the Pentecostal church would repent and denounce the errors their early founders passed down to them it would be one thing. But the fact is they haven't and they won't. They persist in their error; and that error has birthed other groups with even worse errors.

One thing to consider here is the question "what if I am wrong?"

If you believe in the gifts and act on them and are wrong, then you've just engaged in a little human foolishness. And who among us has not done that?

But if you don't believe in the gifts and deny authentic acts of the Holy Spirit, you've dabbled with blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. And there's one tiny scripture that strongly warns against that.

Believe what you want, but consider the ramifications of your belief.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Believe what you want, but consider the ramifications of your belief.

Okay I'll do that. It always comes down to scare tactics in the end. I'm at peace and I wish the same for you.

 

[CS1]

One thing to consider here is the question "what if I am wrong?"

If you believe in the gifts and act on them and are wrong, then you've just engaged in a little human foolishness. And who among us has not done that?

But if you don't believe in the gifts and deny authentic acts of the Holy Spirit, you've dabbled with the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. And there's one tiny scripture that strongly warns against that.

Believe what you want, but consider the ramifications of your belief.

he is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit, he is unlearned in the word of God concerning this topic 1Corthians chapter 14:38

says " But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.".

we are to leave him alone and turn him over to the Lord

 

[JTB]

he is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit, he is unlearned in the word of God concerning this topic 1Corthians chapter 14:38

says " But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.".

we are to leave him alone and turn him over to the Lord

If a believer who does not believe in the gifts sees a bonafide act of the Holy Spirit and says it was NOT of the Holy Spirit, are they not doing exactly what the Pharisees did?

 

[DavidTree]

What part of DO NOT FORBID do you not understand?

I don't see a "Best By" date on any scripture

Like your post.
There is a "Use Before Date" in Scripture concerning the Gifts of the Holy Spririt - most people completely miss it.

 

[DavidTree]

You're focused on one tiny scripture and ignoring all the rest.

Yeah, just like "you must be born again"

 

[Edify]

A lot of people keep saying yeah, so what. Why should it matter if the early Pentecostals were scoundrels? It wouldn't except for one thing: If the Pentecostal church would repent and denounce the errors their early founders passed down to them it would be one thing. But the fact is they haven't and they won't. They persist in their error; and that error has birthed other groups with even worse errors.

What groups are these? Where is your proof?

 

[Edify]

I'm betwixt two here. One side absolutely refuses to consider what's written in scripture, while the other side continues to try to prove what he won't hear.
The Bible says two things about such people:
1. If they won't hear you, dust off your feet as a testimony against them.
2. We are to expose their false doctrine for the church to see so they won't be fooled by their false compassion.
That has been accomplished, so 'nothin else to see here, let's move on.