Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[de-emerald]

I don't care about your master's degree.

Your being deliberately baited and targeted here ive seen it right through out the thread.

It looks like youve got some false members who quite clearly hate you and also theres quite a few trolls here to who are just using this subject to troll. they really dont care for the gifts of the spirit. there more bothered about there own ego.

 

[CS1]

Your being deliberately baited and targeted here ive seen it right through out the thread.

It looks like youve got some false members who quite clearly hate you and also theres quite a few trolls here to who are just using this subject to troll. they really dont care for the gifts of the spirit. there more bothered about there own ego.

As I said before you will never find me first starting it they always to I could start a thread and call it the nine Gifts of the Holy Spirit they would flock to it like ants to sugar.

Most of them have short-term memory loss and forget where they have said about others in the MOST HATEFUL WAY and called on it they are now playing the victim card. I challenge any of them to go back and look at any thread on The Gifts of the Holy Spirit you will find them there attacking and calling names every time. They keep saying the Gifts of the Holy Spirt are not for today yet they can't prove that with the word of God. They were called on it, they resorted to linguist, pagan doctrine, and occultic practices. But not the word of God.

They use 1cor 13:8-10 as the proof scripturally the gifts have ceased yet that is not the context of what it is saying but they don't care.

You show them the unit chapters contextually are together from1cor 12- 14 chapters and they say that the only chapters you have LOL but they removed the gifts of the Holy Spirit based on only three verses. Hypocrites.

When called on that they say show us? LOL as we are to perform for them to remove their doubt yet they quote secular humanistic people and even embrace Evolution Darwinian at that.

And I'm unbiblical and mean LOL. No. I have called as I see it. None of them have proven Biblically the gifts are not for today.

If they have a problem with those on tv WHO we are already said and agreed were in error, go and address them. Stop being cowards and hiding on a chat site and confront K. Copeland, Benny Hinn, and others please do you have my blessing.

 

[de-emerald]

I Think the dogma is people think because they dont display the same gifts as others there not saved or they start fealing inperfect.

Jesus quite clearly points out
Matthew 13:13

Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Jude 1:10 These men, however, slander what they do not understand,

 

[AandW]

I Thing the dogma is people think because they dont display the same gifts as others there not saved or they start fealing inperfect.

Jesus quite clearly points out
Matthew 13:13

Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Jude 1:10 These men, however, slander what they do not understand,

I think what makes the least amount of sense, is all of us agree that we are currently filled with the Holy Spirit, which means the Holy Spirit is still very active on Earth. So, why would a very and currently active Holy Spirit not be complete in all of the Holy Spirit's Gifts? Why would the Holy Spirit be active but some of the Gifts are dead? It makes no sense to think that way. That is a Teaching straight from the pits of Hell many are promoting!

 

[ResidentAlien]

C'mon brother, when you say Pentecostalism began with Parham you are talking about Asuza St.

As you probably know, the Azusa St. revival started in 1906 led by William J. Seymour, who was a student of Charles Parham. Parham's first experience with tongues was in late 1900.

The Azusa revival had all the appearances of a spontaneous outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but Seymour had already been preaching that speaking in tongues was the sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (he was taught this by Parham). As in Parham's case, and in just about every case really, there's a certain amount of "priming" that happens first. Seymour was preaching what he'd been taught by Parham.

Some people have the idea that Azusa was the beginning of Pentecostalism. If that's what you believe it's not worth quibbling over. However, there was a lot of groundwork being laid by Parham. It all started with Parham.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I think what makes the least amount of sense, is all of us agree that we are currently filled with the Holy Spirit, which means the Holy Spirit is still very active on Earth. So, why would a very and currently active Holy Spirit not be complete in all of the Holy Spirit's Gifts? Why would the Holy Spirit be active but some of the Gifts are dead? It makes no sense to think that way. That is a Teaching straight from the pits of Hell many are promoting!

AandW, when Pentecostals or Charismatics speak about tongues, they're careful to differentiate between a "prayer language" and speaking an unknown human language they never learned previously. Today tongues is considered by most a prayer language; the gift of speaking an unknown language has, for all intents and purposes, ceased. So how is that any different from saying tongues have ceased altogether??

Even Mormons are careful not to claim they can speak an unknown human language. For them, the gift of tongues is simply having the ability to learn a new language faster than those who don't have the gift.

 

[AandW]

This happened to John Wesley and i think it fits this Thread perfectly since many Denominations are based upon Wesley's Teachings.

II. A Wesleyan Perspective

Early in his career as a successful evangelist, Wesley noted that on occasions there were powerful, emotional responses to the proclaimed word. People would shake, cry out, and sometimes fall to the ground. He even coined a phrase for these reactions — “the fits,” which we find noted here and there in his Journal. The commonly used term in Wesley’s day for such emotionalism was “enthusiasm,” which we might label fanaticism.

Wesley did not seek to elicit such reactions. Today when we read his written sermons, we are amazed at how logical and content-loaded they are. It is obvious that Wesley did not compromise content to win an emotional reaction. Nevertheless, there were, as noted above, tremendous emotional reactions to his preaching.

Simply noting how Wesley handled this matter is instructive. When the emotional expressions occurred, he did not stop them — as long as they seemed genuine and under control.

^
1) Wesley did not stop these things when they happened
2) Wesley deemed them acceptable and genuine
3) What happened in Wesley's time is happening still to this very day

So why are the followers of Wesley today hammering on something he accepted as genuine and of God?

 

[Aidan1]

you are liar too sir,

Well, if someone claims something he should proof it. You are calling people liars without proof. How would you call this?
Not only this, you are giving the posts false back, and ignore what is written.
Well, be in your believe System.
As I said, it reveals a lot about you.

 

[de-emerald]

Well, if someone claims something he should proof it. You are calling people liars without proof. How would you call this?
Not only this, you are giving the posts false back, and ignore what is written.
Well, be in your believe System.
As I said, it reveals a lot about you.

Well when a persons beliefs have been mocked and insulted for as long as his has i think it wouldnt belong befor you started to get upset. maybe you could leave it alone now.

 

[AandW]

This happened to John Wesley and i think it fits this Thread perfectly since many Denominations are based upon Wesley's Teachings.

II. A Wesleyan Perspective

Early in his career as a successful evangelist, Wesley noted that on occasions there were powerful, emotional responses to the proclaimed word. People would shake, cry out, and sometimes fall to the ground. He even coined a phrase for these reactions — “the fits,” which we find noted here and there in his Journal. The commonly used term in Wesley’s day for such emotionalism was “enthusiasm,” which we might label fanaticism.

Wesley did not seek to elicit such reactions. Today when we read his written sermons, we are amazed at how logical and content-loaded they are. It is obvious that Wesley did not compromise content to win an emotional reaction. Nevertheless, there were, as noted above, tremendous emotional reactions to his preaching.

Simply noting how Wesley handled this matter is instructive. When the emotional expressions occurred, he did not stop them — as long as they seemed genuine and under control.

^
1) Wesley did not stop these things when they happened
2) Wesley deemed them acceptable and genuine
3) What happened in Wesley's time is happening still to this very day

So why are the followers of Wesley today hammering on something he accepted as genuine and of God?

For the Baptist, Methodist, Wesleyan, Presbyterians, one of the main founders of YOUR DOCTRINE believes in [ People would shake, cry out, and sometimes fall to the ground].

[Simply noting how Wesley handled this matter is instructive. When the emotional expressions occurred, he did not stop them — as long as they seemed genuine and under control].

Ha, there were HOLY ROLLERS in Wesley's day and he called it Genuine!


To you Baptist, Methodist, Wesleyan, Presbyterians, How have you gone astray from one of your founders teachings?

 

[AandW]

Reprobates!

 

[de-emerald]

; the gift of speaking an unknown language has, for all intents and purposes, ceased. So how is that any different from saying tongues have ceased altogether??

Even Mormons are careful not to claim they can speak an unknown human language. For them, the gift of tongues is simply having the ability to learn a new language faster than those who don't have the gift.

disagree sorry there is no biblical evidence here, theese are just opinions. prophesy ceasing in 1 cor 13:8-10 is when the lord stops speaking through the person. and not ceasing all together im sure you get that.
You seem quite a bright person, i dont see how you could be so dull ?.
And comparing the standards of the mormon church to the penticostal church suggests you really are out to just upset somebody especialy the reason your comparing them for
The gifts of the holy spirit. I really cant see how you could be this unimaginative.
I just wonder if you care at all about your issues in your op, or whether there isnt a level of how low you will snoop to get your point of view across.

 

[AandW]

disagree sorry there is no biblical evidence here, theese are just opinions. prophesy ceasing in 1 cor 13:8-10 is when the lord stops speaking through the person. and not ceasing all together im sure you get that.
You seem quite a bright person, i dont see how you could be so dull ?.
And comparing the standards of the mormon church to the penticostal church suggests you really are out to just upset somebody especialy the reason your comparing them for
The gifts of the holy spirit. I really cant see how you could be this unimaginative.
I just wonder if you care at all about your issues in your op, or whether there isnt a level of how low you will snoop to get your point of view across.

Every time I hear some Gift has ceased, I think of the Holy Spirit suddenly missing some of its power. Oh, Tongues have ceased, when Paul claims Tongues is POWER LANGUAGE that edifies us through God, makes me think the Holy Spirit is walking on a crutch missing a leg. That's basically what people are doing by claiming this Gift is dead or ceased, they are tearing down the Holy Spirit! They might as well be calling the Holy Spirit, Satan, like the Pharisees did in Matthew 12.

 

[de-emerald]

Every time I hear some Gift has ceased, I think of the Holy Spirit suddenly missing some of its power. Oh, Tongues have ceased, when Paul claims Tongues is POWER LANGUAGE that edifies us through God, makes me think the Holy Spirit is walking on a crutch missing a leg. That's basically what people are doing by claiming this Gift is dead or ceased, they are tearing down the Holy Spirit! They might as well be calling the Holy Spirit, Satan, like the Pharisees did in Matthew 12.

either that or satan has got a hold of them.

 

[ResidentAlien]

disagree sorry there is no biblical evidence here, theese are just opinions.

Then why do so many Pentecostals and Charismatics downplay the the true gift of tongues and emphasize the so-called prayer language? I'll give you a hint: it's because it's very easy to detect when someone's faking a true language but impossible to say a "prayer language" is being faked.

 

[AandW]

either that or satan has got a hold of them.

Amen!

 

[ResidentAlien]

Let me just say, if grown people wants to speak a prayer language, and if that gives them joy, then who am I to tell them they can't.

My problem is when they call a "prayer language" tongues, which it isn't; or when they think a prayer language is evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. . .it's not.

I've got no problem with someone speaking a prayer language, but don't try to tell me it's the Holy Spirit; and don't try to tell me it's tongues.

 

[de-emerald]

Then why do so many Pentecostals and Charismatics downplay the the true gift of tongues and emphasize the so-called prayer language? I'll give you a hint: it's because it's very easy to detect when someone's faking a true language but impossible to say a "prayer language" is being faked.

Thanks for your clarity on comfirming this is personal to you.
Im not sure what to believe with you and ive never seen what your talking about.
maybe its in your head, or maybe youve never tried layin your hands on someone and praying for them, but i know you find that creepy from your op so you could have a demon planting unclean thoughts in your head.

speaking in tounges is not necessarily speaking in a strange lauguage to me.
and i certainly wouldnt want to dogma the gifts of the spirit for as long as you have in this thread. and when you say many is that 1 percent 100 percent. how many penticostal churches have you visited ?.

 

[de-emerald]

Let me just say, if grown people wants to speak a prayer language, and if that gives them joy, then who am I to tell them they can't.

My problem is when they call a "prayer language" tongues, which it isn't; or when they think a prayer language is evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. . .it's not.

I've got no problem with someone speaking a prayer language, but don't try to tell me it's the Holy Spirit; and don't try to tell me it's tongues.

maybe your problem is you dont see prayer as communion to. looks like youve got unclean thoughts turning your heart mean here. just sayin.
its better the devil you know. as they say

 

[de-emerald]

Amen!

thats not something i want to say amen about. unclean thoughts from the enemy can do a lot of damage.
But anyway i know you said that because you where in agreement.
people dont know the difference between oppression and possession. they dont know unclean thoughts from oppression from the enenmy can get a hold of someone just as much as possession.

Any way im through here God bless