Pentecostal and Charismatic

[kaylagrl]

The prayer of faith heals the sick. But the Apostle's signs and wonders ended with them.

Read the posts for refutation with Scripture.

 

[Dave-L]

Read the posts for refutation with Scripture.

It has no substance without highly visible miracles today.

 

[wolfwint]

4.Cessation argument #4: Church history proves that all evidence of the miraculous gifts passed away after the first century. This argument filled the bulk of Warfield’s pages and has been popular in cessationist writing ever since. Two responses are in order

a.First, even it could be proved that the gifts passed away in the history of the church, this does not prove thatGod will not grant them again.
b.Second, history does not prove that the miraculous gifts passed away, as we will see below.1)Stanley Burgess has produced a three-volume study on the history of the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. He writes, “Before John Chrysostom (A.D. 347-407) in the East and Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354-430) in the west, no church father suggested that any or all of the charismata were intended only for the first-century Church.

2)The Patristic Era(A.D. 100-600)

.a)An early second-century document, The Didache, was written to ministers. It exhorted the church to “permit the prophets to give thanks as much as they desire” and then proceeded to give instruction on how prophetic utterances were to be tested.

b)Justin Martyr (ca. A.D. 100-165) reminds fellow Christians in a letter that “many of our Christian men...have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the possessing devils out.

c)Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 130-202) writes,
We do also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men...those who are in truth His disciples...do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come; they see visions...others still heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up and remained among us for many years.

d) Origen, writing in the third century, reported that signs and wonders validated the proclamation of the gospel:
The Gospel has a demonstration of its own...this...method is called by the apostle the “manifestation of the Spirit and of power:” of “the Spirit” on account of the prophecies, which are sufficient to produce faith in anyone who reads them...and of “power”, because of the signs and wonders.

e)The Latin theologian Hilary of Poitiers, writing in the fourth century, affirmed that the miraculous gifts were operating in his day:The gift of the Spirit is manifest...where there is...the gift of healings, that by the cure of the disease we should bear witness to His grace...or by the working of miracles...or by prophecy...or by discerning of spirits...or by kinds of tongues, that the speaking in tongues may be bestowed as a sign of the gift of the Holy Spirit; or by the interpretation of tongues.

f)Finally, Augustine, who wrote in the late fourth and early fifth century, believed that the gift of tongues was not given to the church in his day, but that the gift of miracles was. In a fascinating chapter in The City of God, Augustine writes of numerous healings, exorcisms, and visions and says, regarding his own congregation,...

many miracles were wrought, the same God who wrought those we read of still the same God who wrought those we read of still performing them...One miracle was wrought among ourselves...I suppose there is no inhabitant of Hippoo who did not either see or hear of it...There were seven brothers and three sisters...all of them seized with a hideous shaking of their limbs...Two of them came to Hippo...They came daily to the church, and specially to the relics of the most glorious Stephen praying that God might now be appeased, and restore their former health..Easter arrived, and on the Lord’s day...the young man was holding thebars of the holy place where the relics were, and praying suddenly he fell down, and lay precisely as if asleep, but not trembling as he was wont to do even in sleep. All present were astonished...And behold! He rose up, and trembled no more, for he was healed.

3)The Medieval Era(600-1500).

a)Colette of Corbi (d.1447) founded a convent and earned a reputation as one through whom God worked in miraculous ways. The Lives of the Saints tells us that the Duchess of Bourbon believed that she resuscitated the dead and comments that “...the fame of the miracles and labours of the carpenter’s daughter was in every mouth.

b)The lives of the saints are filled with stories of the miraculous. Modern-day Protestant scholarship tends to discredit these accounts as legends, but this reactionary approach to church history betrays modernist presuppositions about what sorts of things could and could not have happened in a saint’s life.One other example of the presence of gifts during this period is the Scholastic mystical theologian Joachim of Fiore (d. 1202), who wrote in his theology of the Holy Spirit that the Spirit spoke through prophets and that the gift of tongues is imparted by the Holy Spirit by means of the imposition of hands.

4)The Reformation and the Modern Era (1500 to present).It is widely reported that the Reformers did not believe in the miraculous gifts. The Roman Catholic Church buttressed their authority on claims of miracles, many of which the Reformers questioned.

a)Therefore it is somewhat surprising to find Martin Luther writing the following advice to a pastor who sought his counsel in ministering to a sick man: SouthlandChurchThe Case against CessationismPage 6www.mysouthland.comI know of no worldly advice to give. If the physicians are at a loss to find a remedy, you may be sure that it is not a case of ordinary melancholy. It must, rather, be an affliction that comes from the devil and must be counteracted by the power of Christ and the prayer of faith.Accordingly you should proceed as follows...Graciously deign to free this man from all evil, and bring to naught the work that Satan has done in him...Then, when you depart, lay your hands on the man again and say, “These signs shall follow them that believe; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

c.Conclusion:It is probably fair to say that the charismatic church has seen too much of the miraculous in the history of the church, and evangelical church has seen too little (There is no entry under “miracle” in the subject index of Philip Schaff’s History of the Christian Church). As is so often the case, the truth appears to be somewhere in the middle. God has continued to give the miraculous gifts throughout the history of the church, although in varying degrees. There is a growing scholarly literature developing supporting this conclusion.

continued...

But they are not in the same way practised as it was in the apostolic time. That our Lord was and is working miracles and healings is no doubt. And as it was in the time of Jesus and the apostles, they are were done in the first run to proof that Jesus Christ is the promissed Messajah. Today is proclaimed from pentecostals and charismatics in the first run a healthy christianity. What would be nice, but never was prommissed in the bible.

 

[Dave-L]

Read the reports of the church fathers, you can skim it and find that part. And they weren't even Pentecosts.

They were all hearsay with no direct proof. Tertullian got rolled by the Montanists cult and cannot be trusted in what he says.

 

[Dave-L]

5.Cessation Argument #5: The miraculous gifts were given only during the three periods of history when new revelation was given. Therefore, they are not being given today.

a.John MacArthur teaches this view: Most biblical miracles happened in three relatively brief periods of Bible history: in the days of Moses and Joshua, during the miracles of Elijah and Elisha, and in the time of Christ and the apostles...All three periods of miracles were given in times when God gave his written revelation-Scripture, in substantial quantities
b.The major problem with this argument is that a great number of supernatural events occur outside of these three periods. What is more, even if it is shown that the miraculous decreased at certain times, there may be other reasons for the decline, such as rebellion and sin.
6.Cessation Argument #6: Jesus says, “A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign” (Matt. 16:4). This means that we should not pray for the miraculous in our ministries today.

a.The problem with this objection is that it fails to consider who Jesus’ audience was. Matthew 16 shows us that the “wicked and adulterous generation” referred to were the Scribes and the Pharisees who came to test Jesus by asking for a sign. Jesus was rebuking hard-hearted unbelievers who mocked him with this request. Notice the greater frequency with which Jesus compassionately responded to a request for a miracle

b.Significantly, Acts 4:30 relates that the apostles and the early disciples prayed for signs and wonders to follow their preaching ministry. Paul, rather than discouraging his readers from seeking the miraculous gifts, told them do desire them eagerly (1 Cor. 14:1). John writes that “many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name” (John 2:23). Then he reinforces the positive role of signs in proclaiming the gospel: “Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (20:30-31).

7.Cessation Argument #7: Seeking miraculous gifts, especially in evangelism, devalues the primacy of the Word of God. The Bible alone is enough to save.

a.Yes, the gospel alone is enough to save, for it is the “power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes” (Rom. 1:16). Tens of thousands have been saved by the Word preached without any attesting works of power. The gospel has intrinsic power to save. The argument of this book, however, is that in the pluralistic world of today, works of power may help the church reach a culture confused by myriad religious choices. In arguing that the postmodern church will be more effective when the Word goes forth with power, is the Word of God devalued?

b.No, this is exactly what the apostles themselves expressed. They prayed for God to confirm their gospel with works of power. If signs and wonders did not devalue the Word for the apostles, why would they devalue the Word now?

c.No one has ever preached the Word more powerfully than the apostles. Yet God chose to confirm his words through them with attesting signs and wonders. The argument is frequently made: “The apostles needed that in the first century. Those gifts passed away because the church didn’t need them anymore.” The suggestion that the church does not need them anymore implies that the apostles needed more help than we do in preaching the gospel! If the apostles, with their tremendous spiritual gifting and ministering to a world that was still filled with eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ, needed the help of signs and wonders, don’t we need them too?

8.Cessation Argument #8: Jesus warns us that in the end times false prophets will work miracles and deceive the elect. Therefore we should not seek miraculous gifts

a.The work of God’s Spirit is always counterfeited by the enemy. The scriptural approach is to learn to discern between true and false prophets. Texts such as Matthew 7:15-17, 2 Peter 2:1-22, and 1 John 4:1-6 guide the church to distinguish the false prophet from the true prophet.

b.The Bible says there will be false teachers in the end times. Does that mean we should abandon the gift of teaching for fear of being deceived? Jesus did warn his followers to beware of deceiving false prophets who teach error and work false miracles. The fact that Satan can counterfeit a true ministry of the Spirit should not result in rejecting that ministry of the Spirit

9.Cessation Argument #9: The epistles rarely speak of the miraculous gifts. This proves that these gifts passed away toward the end of the first century.

a.The line of this argument says that the gifts are not discussed much in the epistles and that, in the letters written toward the end of Paul’s life, we do not find Epaphroditus, Timothy, or Trophimus being supernaturally healed.

b.This is an argument from silence, which is the weakest kind. Paul does not speak about his gift of celibacy in the later epistles either. Is one therefore to assume that he lost it? Not much can be proved from silence. The epistles do refer to the miraculous gifts in Romans 12:3-8, 1 Corinthians 12-14, Galatians 3:5, Ephesians 4:1-16, and 1 Thessalonians 5:20. Moreover, there is no explicit command in the epistles to evangelize. Should one conclude that by the end of the century the apostles had stopped witnessing? Just because Paul did not heal the three men he mentions in the prison epistles does not mean he had lost his gift of healing. The Scripture simply does not say why they were not healed

.c.The greatest problem with this argument, as Jack Deere points out, is that it contrasts narrative literature with didactic literature. The book of Acts is narrative literature. Luke explained that the purpose of the book of Acts was to tell “about all that Jesus began to do and to teach” (Act 1:1). Acts is the story of Jesus’ continuing his miraculous ministry through the church. The epistles are letters written to churches dealing with specific problems. When the problems related to gifts, as in Corinth, the epistle addressed it. Otherwise there was no reason for the gifts to be mentioned. Furthermore, Paul was in prison when he wrote Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon. These letters will obviously not be filled with stories of Paul working miracles-Paul was locked up

10.Cessation Argument #10: The miracles worked by the apostles were always successful, instantaneous, and on the hardest cases (such as organic illnesses like blindness or paralysis). If Jesus and the apostles were here today, they would be emptying the hospitals. The miracles of todayare nothing like the ones in the Bible. This proves that the miraculous gifts have ceased.

a.It has already been affirmed that Jesus and the apostles ministered with extraordinary power. It does not follow from this that believers today cannot minister with these gifts at all. While present day believers may not witness with that kind of power, they continue to witness. The same is true of these gifts: they may not be used with the power displayed by the apostles, but they are still used.
b.There does seem to be a distinction between the apostolic gift of healing and the gifts of healing mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. These gifts of healing may be of lesser intensity, which would account for the difference between apostolic and modern miracles. Samuel Storms writes:It is repeatedly argued that the extent and intensity of apostolic signs, wonders and miracles has not continued unchanged throughout church history. I agree. But this would only prove that the apostles operated at a level of supernatural power unknown to other Christians, something virtually everyone concedes. It has no bearing, however, on the question of whether the miraculous gifts of 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 are designed by God for the church in every age


I have never posted anything like this on CC. But because of false attacks on Pentecost I feel I had to have a full response with Scripture. You don't want to read it? Fine. But once and for all there is refutation of cessationism.

You can't refute it until you show some true miracles.

 

[Dino246]

Saying the same thing without showing me the mystical foundation of wonderment of the kind of signs that you say are a outward gifts we can seek after to get filled does not accomplish much. Where is the foundation for this law you speak of??

I have shown you the truth many times. I have explained it many times.

Where is the teachings seek after a sign? Or are you still tying to decide if tongues are prophecy like parables Two manners of prophecy?

Why do you keep changing the subject instead of dealing with one issue at a time? Because you do this, you apparently haven't learned a blessed thing since joining this site.

You could say I am on the side that does not make Jesus into a circus seal like those mockers in Isaiah 28. the tables were turned and prophecy made there oral tradition without effect .Rather than the mockers thinking they made prophecy without effect.. God mocking unbelief in mankind.

You would say that to justify yourself. I would say you are willfully ignorant and unwilling to re-examine your assertions in light of Scripture.

 

[Dino246]

You can't refute it until you show some true miracles.

Fallacious arguments don't need to be refuted; they refute themselves.

 

[Reba1]

I answer the best I can. Are you making yourself clear when asking?

Yes the question could have been answered yes or no . I was very clear. Seemingly you chose to use the question to make a point. The replies i read from you to others will be understood in that vain.

 

[kaylagrl]

They were all hearsay with no direct proof. Tertullian got rolled by the Montanists cult and cannot be trusted in what he says.

That was one person. Everyone else is a heretic, you'd have made a great Catholic, burning everyone at the stake. Somewhere along these post I read where you, or someone agreeing with you quoted the church fathers.Funny how they are all heretics when they disagree with you. Dismiss anything that rebuts your POV. not hypocritical at all.

 

[kaylagrl]

You can't refute it until you show some true miracles.

No, if I showed you the miracles I've seen you'd say I was a liar, or I didn't have proof or some other reason to excuse it away. So what's the point of answering your question. There is none.

 

[Dave-L]

No, if I showed you the miracles I've seen you'd say I was a liar, or I didn't have proof or some other reason to excuse it away. So what's the point of answering your question. There is none.

Miracles exsist. The prayer of faith produces miracles. But the gifts, including healing, are not for anyone but the Apostles and those they laid their hands on. Like Philip who preached and healed in Samaria. You do not see those miracles beyond the times of the Apostles. And even then, Paul could not heal several of his helpers in the Epistles. And even put Timothy on medicine. If you love scripture, don't project your ideas into it. Only learn from it.

 

[Dave-L]

That was one person. Everyone else is a heretic, you'd have made a great Catholic, burning everyone at the stake. Somewhere along these post I read where you, or someone agreeing with you quoted the church fathers.Funny how they are all heretics when they disagree with you. Dismiss anything that rebuts your POV. not hypocritical at all.

“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” (1 Corinthians 4:3–5)

 

[garee]

Exactly, so don't replace "will cease" with "have ceased".

It does not say it has not ceased .

We must be careful how we hear or say we do hear eternal God not seen

The hope that it has not ceased would be the hope of every false prophet and dreamer like the Mormons .The book of Mormon, another testament .(anti-testament, another gospel) Or the JW's with their watchtower anti- testament hoping to add to that which is sealed with 7 seals or Mohamed and his false prophecy the Koran, or the Catholic and their written law of their fathers (CCC ) another anti-testament .

Any prophet claiming "thus says the Lord" that came after John.. with another testament has violated the warning at the end of the book of the law .They that seek after signs and wonder show themselves as false prophets, as antichrists(many) spoken of in 1st John2 .Men who say that other men must each them lord over their faith which is the anti-gospel . Violating the warning to abide in the Holy Spirit within. He alone is the teacher, comforter and guide. And who lovingly brings to our memory that which he has taught causing us to humble that God is working in us to both will and do His good pleasure as Emanuel God with us.

The elect are said of that it would be impossible to deceive. I think that is because they heed the warning which did come to pass with John the last prophet moved to record the thoughts of God, as a written law . The Holy Spirit sealing up the perfect till the end of time with seven seals.

Why do you think it would be impossible to deceive the Elect like the Noble Bereans that were moved by the Spirit to see if the things Paul was saying came from the Holy Spirit ??

The last book is still Revelation. What could be missing other than the end?

Removing the 7 seals a person violates the last warning in the Bible. Do not add or substract and destroy the integrity of the book of the law, the Bible. Revelation 22

It would seem the Holy Spirit warned them to not believe those lies. . . before John completed the task. . . sealed with 7 seals.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mathew 24:23-26

The perfect that fulfilled being in part certainly cannot apply to the new incorruptible order. The warning is to the elect in Mathew 24 It is our safeguard it applies to those under the Sun .In the new heavens and earth earth the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind. It cannot apply to them

Note. . . . (purple) . . .my added comments

I John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist (singular the one spirit the father of lies who works in the antichrists plural many fleshly bodies shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

I John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[garee]

Miracles exsist. The prayer of faith produces miracles. But the gifts, including healing, are not for anyone but the Apostles and those they laid their hands on. Like Philip who preached and healed in Samaria. You do not see those miracles beyond the times of the Apostles. And even then, Paul could not heal several of his helpers in the Epistles. And even put Timothy on medicine. If you love scripture, don't project your ideas into it. Only learn from it.

It would seem that you are adding a new meaning to the word apostle which with no other meaning is "sent one" Adding to the meaning would seem to violate the warning in Deuteronomy 4:3 . Change the meaning one word it can effect the whole context and change the authors intent .

Genisis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Miracles exist every day all day . The prayer of Christ's faith as a work of his faithfulness produces miracles. He said let there be light and there was. Without his faith working in us as a labor of His love we could do nothing that could please him

Great Miracle shown in Acts 14 a man that never walked (walking a metaphor used in parables it denotes "understand" Having received the understanding of the gospel he then could walk and leap for joy for knowing Christ.

The gospel the healing power of God.

And there they preached the gospel.And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet.(Power of Gods word prophecy) And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, Acts 14:7-14

They attributed the invisible work of the gospel to the corruptible hands of men. The apostles cried out blasphemy . God it not worshipped or does not heal by human hands. We walk by faith. The kingdom does not come by observing the temporal thing of men thing


Worshiping = From where we get the word therapeutic

Strong's #2323: therapeuo (pronounced ther-ap-yoo'-o) from the same as 2324; to wait upon menially, i.e. (figuratively) to adore (God), or (specially) to relieve (of disease):--cure, heal, worship.





25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

 

[Dave-L]

It would seem that you are adding a new meaning to the word apostle which with no other meaning is "sent one" Adding to the meaning would seem to violate the warning in Deuteronomy 4:3 . Change the meaning one word it can effect the whole context and change the authors intent .

Genisis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Miracles exist every day all day . The prayer of Christ's faith as a work of his faithfulness produces miracles. He said let there be light and there was. Without his faith working in us as a labor of His love we could do nothing that could please him

Great Miracle shown in Acts 14 a man that never walked (walking a metaphor used in parables it denotes "understand" Having received the understanding of the gospel he then could walk and leap for joy for knowing Christ.

The gospel the healing power of God.

And there they preached the gospel.And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet.(Power of Gods word prophecy) And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, Acts 14:7-14

They attributed the invisible work of the gospel to the corruptible hands of men. The apostles cried out blasphemy . God it not worshipped or does not heal by human hands. We walk by faith. The kingdom does not come by observing the temporal thing of men thing


Worshiping = From where we get the word therapeutic

Strong's #2323: therapeuo (pronounced ther-ap-yoo'-o) from the same as 2324; to wait upon menially, i.e. (figuratively) to adore (God), or (specially) to relieve (of disease):--cure, heal, worship.





25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Jesus told the 12 to tarry in Jerusalem until they be endued with power from on high. So it was the role of the 12 and later Paul that defines the word in the strict sense.

 

[Dino246]

It does not say it has not ceased .

We must be careful how we hear or say we do hear eternal God not seen

The hope that it has not ceased would be the hope of every false prophet and dreamer like the Mormons .The book of Mormon, another testament .(anti-testament, another gospel) Or the JW's with their watchtower anti- testament hoping to add to that which is sealed with 7 seals or Mohamed and his false prophecy the Koran, or the Catholic and their written law of their fathers (CCC ) another anti-testament .

Any prophet claiming "thus says the Lord" that came after John.. with another testament has violated the warning at the end of the book of the law .They that seek after signs and wonder show themselves as false prophets, as antichrists(many) spoken of in 1st John2 .Men who say that other men must each them lord over their faith which is the anti-gospel . Violating the warning to abide in the Holy Spirit within. He alone is the teacher, comforter and guide. And who lovingly brings to our memory that which he has taught causing us to humble that God is working in us to both will and do His good pleasure as Emanuel God with us.

The elect are said of that it would be impossible to deceive. I think that is because they heed the warning which did come to pass with John the last prophet moved to record the thoughts of God, as a written law . The Holy Spirit sealing up the perfect till the end of time with seven seals.

Why do you think it would be impossible to deceive the Elect like the Noble Bereans that were moved by the Spirit to see if the things Paul was saying came from the Holy Spirit ??

The last book is still Revelation. What could be missing other than the end?

Removing the 7 seals a person violates the last warning in the Bible. Do not add or substract and destroy the integrity of the book of the law, the Bible. Revelation 22

It would seem the Holy Spirit warned them to not believe those lies. . . before John completed the task. . . sealed with 7 seals.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mathew 24:23-26

The perfect that fulfilled being in part certainly cannot apply to the new incorruptible order. The warning is to the elect in Mathew 24 It is our safeguard it applies to those under the Sun .In the new heavens and earth earth the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind. It cannot apply to them

Note. . . . (purple) . . .my added comments

I John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist (singular the one spirit the father of lies who works in the antichrists plural many fleshly bodies shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

I John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

You keep repeating the same errors. You keep misrepresenting the position of continuationists.

People with integrity are careful to represent the beliefs of others accurately, especially those with whom they disagree. There is no honour in saying things about others that are incorrect. To continue to do so after being told that the things you say are incorrect is essentially lying. So... get some integrity and stop lying.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Jesus warned us that false prophets will come and perform great signs and wonder, so deceptive that they could deceive the very elect.
This is why I put 0 stock in miracles and such.
I look for God in his word.

 

[garee]

You keep repeating the same errors. You keep misrepresenting the position of continuationists.

People with integrity are careful to represent the beliefs of others accurately, especially those with whom they disagree. There is no honour in saying things about others that are incorrect. To continue to do so after being told that the things you say are incorrect is essentially lying. So... get some integrity and stop lying.

Continuationists? Is that a new word? What do they continual to do?

Still waiting for the answer. Why is it you think the elect will not be deceived as the ones that heed the warning .Seeing the Holy Spirit told them before time?

Told them before what time? It would seem to be the time of the great tribulation...…. the perfect (Cannon) had come leaving the false prophets into a state confusion as they tried to find a human face they could connect their faith with . None to be found. The reformation had come. No more Pagan walking by sight representation (Kings in Israel). Back to the time period of Judges when God un seen by faith reigned from heaven as King of kings.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, "if it were possible", they shall deceive the very elect . Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.Mathew 24:21-26

Believe it as what not? Falling backward as a sign?

Sign are for rebels. . Prophecy God's living word for those who beleive.

 

[Dino246]

Sign are for rebels.

Unbiblical garbage!

 

[Lafftur]

Oh dear, here we go again......

The original post is from 2012 and hiding under the label of P/C (Pentecostal/Charismatic) yet, it’s really the power of God’s Holy Spirit that God promised to give us that we’re still arguing over.....

I can hear The Holy Spirit hearing us and just grieving and crying out,

“Stop quenching Me! Stop speaking against Me and grieving Me! Have you no respect for The Word of God that I have been released to perform in the Earth and in all believers and yet, cannot because you quench and grieve Me! Stop! Go, sanctify yourselves, find a quiet place, and ask The Father to forgive you and release Me in you!

No more arguing. I am a Gift promised by The Father for you. When you speak against the gift, it’s The Giver of the gift that you speak against. Stop!“


May each of us seek to be pleasing to our Father in Heaven and receive with thanksgiving salvation through Yeshua/Jesus Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit according to His good pleasure. Amen!