OSAS= House Built on Sand

[OstrichSmiling]

Christ's blood saves. Christ's blood can be taken away. Such a person was saved, but is saved no longer.

That is not scripture.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Good News Translation: "For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses." Romans 11:29

"God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or disown the people he has chosen." (Contemporary English Version)

New Living Translation: "For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. "

Romans 11:29

All Israel Shall Be Saved
…28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience,

 

[Deuteronomy]

The race begins at the starting line with justification and ends at the finish line with glorification.

And is run lawfully via sanctification

Hi HeRoseFromTheDead, we are saved by grace through faith from first to last, not by obedience/keeping the Law .. Romans 3:28 (that we do, to the degree we are able, by grace as well).

~Deut

.........Galatians 3
.........21 If a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
.

 

[preacher4truth]

Did you know Calvinism itself asserts that no one can know they are of the elect in this life?

...and yet another fib by ralph and I've ignored him for months due to this.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Hi HeRoseFromTheDead, we are saved by grace through faith from first to last, not by obedience/keeping the Law .. Romans 3:28 (that we do, to the degree we are able, by grace as well).

~Deut

.........Galatians 3
.........21 If a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
.

I agree. Would you agree that faith has to endure from first to last?

 

[OstrichSmiling]

...and yet another fib by ralph and I've ignored him for months due to this.

Why did you stop?

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Matthew 23 (Complete Jewish Bible Version)

Matthew 23 Young's Literal Translation - Public Domain Matthew 23
Jesus Denounces Scribes and Pharisees

23:1 Then Jesus spake to the multitudes, and to his disciples,
2 saying, `On the seat of Moses sat down the scribes and the Pharisees;
3 all, then, as much as they may say to you to observe, observe and do, but according to their works do not, for they say, and do not;
4 for they bind together burdens heavy and grievous to be borne, and lay upon the shoulders of men, but with their finger they will not move them.
5 `And all their works they do to be seen by men, and they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the fringes of their garments,
6 they love also the chief couches in the supper, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 and the salutations in the market-places, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 `And ye -- ye may not be called Rabbi, for one is your director -- the Christ, and all ye are brethren;
9 and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens,
10 nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ.
11 And the greater of you shall be your ministrant,
12 and whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for ye do not go in, nor those going in do ye suffer to enter.
14 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye eat up the houses of the widows, and for a pretence make long prayers, because of this ye shall receive more abundant judgment.
15 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.
16 `Wo to you, blind guides, who are saying, Whoever may swear by the sanctuary, it is nothing, but whoever may swear by the gold of the sanctuary -- is debtor!
17 Fools and blind! for which [is] greater, the gold, or the sanctuary that is sanctifying the gold?
18 `And, whoever may swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever may swear by the gift that is upon it -- is debtor!
19 Fools and blind! for which [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that is sanctifying the gift?
20 `He therefore who did swear by the altar, doth swear by it, and by all things on it;
21 and he who did swear by the sanctuary, doth swear by it, and by Him who is dwelling in it;
22 and he who did swear by the heaven, doth swear by the throne of God, and by Him who is sitting upon it.
23 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye give tithe of the mint, and the dill, and the cumin, and did neglect the weightier things of the Law -- the judgment, and the kindness, and the faith; these it behoved [you] to do, and those not to neglect.
24 `Blind guides! who are straining out the gnat, and the camel are swallowing.
25 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye make clean the outside of the cup and the plate, and within they are full of rapine and incontinence.
26 `Blind Pharisee! cleanse first the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside of them also may become clean.
27 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye are like to whitewashed sepulchres, which outwardly indeed do appear beautiful, and within are full of bones of dead men, and of all uncleanness;
28 so also ye outwardly indeed do appear to men righteous, and within ye are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the tombs of the righteous,
30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 So that ye testify to yourselves, that ye are sons of them who did murder the prophets;
32 and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers.
33 `Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
34 `Because of this, lo, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city;
35 that on you may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the earth from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar:
36 verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
37 `Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.
38 Lo, left desolate to you is your house;
39 for I say to you, ye may not see me henceforth, till ye may say, Blessed [is] he who is coming in the name of the Lord.'

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
by Public Domain

 

[Slayer]

Hi Slayer, the phrase "he who endures to the end shall be saved" is only used in the Bible when it's referring to the time of great tribulation (just prior to Christ's return). As such, I believe it will be one of the principle signs of a true believer in that day and age (far more than it is today in most cases). True believers ARE the ones who endure to the end, because God, by the power of His sanctifying grace, has promised to see that we do .. cf John 6:37-40; Philippians 1:6; 2:13, Hebrews 7:25.

This seems consistent with the Lord's and St. John's teachings, where we learn that we are saved NOT at the end, but from the moment we first believe (IOW, when we first come into possession of "eternal life").

For instance:

.........John 3
.........18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in
.........the name of the only begotten Son of God.

.........John 5
.........24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into
.........judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

.........1 John 5
.........13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you
.........have eternal life.

~Deut

.................John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
................ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me and .. of ALL that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up
................on the last day!
.

Thanks Deuteronomy,

I appreciate that you have taken the time to share your experience and knowledge with me.
I'm trying to understand the exact context of "He who endures to the end shall be saved", you say it refers to believers in the end time just before the return of Christ and I agree, but does it also apply to all o those who are walking after Christ now.

I always understood that verse to mean that the true believers would follow Christ until the end and not fall away.

Also John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and of all that He gives me I will lose none", sounds very much like He's speaking about the elect of God. I'm not sure what your position is on predestination and election, but the Bible seems to indicate that these are biblical doctrines.

 

[Sagart]

It puzzles me why people who rely on their works to be saved even bother to consider themselves Christian. There are plenty of work related alternatives. Unfortunately their practitioners will all end up in the same place.

Biblical faith is a faith that is inseparable from good works which are an integral and essential part of that faith rather than a mere consequence of that faith. We find this truth aggressively taught in Hebrews 11:1 - 40 and James 2:14-26. We find it less aggressively taught in the four gospels, the epistles of Paul, and the rest of the New Testament. And, of course, in the Old Testament faith is always associated with works. In both Testaments we find exhortations to promote faith because faith can become weak and even nonexistent.

 

[Sagart]

Philippians 3:9 - and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8,9) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (NASB, 1995)

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (NASB, 1995)

Click the link below and see post #67,911.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3396#post-3668115

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Also John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and of all that He gives me I will lose none", sounds very much like He's speaking about the elect of God. I'm not sure what your position is on predestination and election, but the Bible seems to indicate that these are biblical doctrines.

I was just looking at that verse, and it doesn't really say that he will lose none, but that he will not cast outside the one who is coming to him. I read that as meaning that the one who stops coming to him would not have the same promise.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Why did you stop?

Why would you be indifferent to my question preacher4truth? You brought your issues with Ralph to our collective attention in your post. My question was simply, why did you choose to stop ignoring their tendency to "fib" as you called it.

 

[mailmandan]

Biblical faith is a faith that is inseparable from good works which are an integral and essential part of that faith rather than a mere consequence of that faith. We find this truth aggressively taught in Hebrews 11:1 - 40 and James 2:14-26. We find it less aggressively taught in the four gospels, the epistles of Paul, and the rest of the New Testament. And, of course, in the Old Testament faith is always associated with works. In both Testaments we find exhortations to promote faith because faith can become weak and even nonexistent.

Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

 

[Slayer]

And yet you did not address the scripture given in the post you responded to.
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant (sinner) abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free (being a servant of sin), ye shall be free indeed.
(Joh 8:34-36 KJV)

Paul speaks of this freedom from sin that Jesus shares with us!

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:1-6 KJV)

Then after Paul in chapter seven gives "his testimony" that knowledge of the law can not and was not saving him from his carnal nature he proclaims the victory in chapter eight.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law (the knowledge of it) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh (taking it away; nailing it to the cross): That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind (entertain; think on) the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded (inclined; purposed) is death; but to be spiritually minded (inclined; purposed) is life and peace.
(Rom 8:2-6 KJV)

Mainly due to the fact it is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure; not us but Christ, in all humility Paul in speaking of being resurrected and living without sin (being perfected) he states of himself.

Not that I already received or already have been perfected, but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not count myself to have laid hold, but one thing I do , forgetting the things behind, and stretching forward to those things before, I press on after the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Then as many as are perfect, let us be of this mind; and if you think anything differently, God will also reveal this to you.
(Php 3:12-15 LITV-TSP)

In verse 15 Paul testifies that some were already perfect and have reached the high calling of GOD through Christ Jesus. Not that they thought that of themselves but Paul testifies they were.

I believe John 8:34-36 is speaking about the time when we are freed from sin, when we receive our sinless perfect bodies after death.

It can't be speaking about this present time while we live in this corrupt body of death. Paul said that there are two forces working in us. He said he doesn't do what he would do but he does that which he would not do.

I believe the above scriptures describe the battle we have with sin, but they don't tell us that we have the victory over sin in this life.

 

[Slayer]

I was just looking at that verse, and it doesn't really say that he will lose none, but that he will not cast outside the one who is coming to him. I read that as meaning that the one who stops coming to him would not have the same promise.

I don't know which Bible translation you found that in, I read my KJV version and the meaning I got was that God gave the elect to Jesus and nobody would snatch them out of His hand.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't know which Bible translation you found that in, I read my KJV version and the meaning I got was that God gave the elect to Jesus and nobody would snatch them out of His hand.

It was from the Apostolic Bible Polyglot. The KJV says about the same thing.

 

[garee]

I was just looking at that verse, and it doesn't really say that he will lose none, but that he will not cast outside the one who is coming to him. I read that as meaning that the one who stops coming to him would not have the same promise.

It would seem that the ones he will not cast out are the same ones that could not come unless they are drawn by God not seen. He as our confidence is the Alfa and Omega.

Phillipians 1:6 informs if Christ has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it to the very end . When we do deny him in unbelieve (no faith) or stop coming . he cannot deny us it s voice that turn us so that we can repent. No voice to draw or turn no one can
come .There would be nothing to cast out

 

[Slayer]

It would seem that the ones he will not cast out are the same ones that could not come unless they are drawn by God not seen. He as our confidence is the Alfa and Omega.

Phillipians 1:6 informs if Christ has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it to the very end . When we do deny him in unbelieve (no faith) or stop coming . he cannot deny us it s voice that turn us so that we can repent. No voice to draw or turn no one can
come .There would be nothing to cast out

That was very well summarized. If God draws us to Himself through Christ, we will respond by believing because God never fails to achieve His goal. His purpose in drawing us is to save us.

 

[Sagart]

Click the link below and see post #67,911.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3396#post-3668115

I have replied to this post in the thread it references, and I have shown from both the Greek text and the NASB 1995 update that the post grossly distorts the words in the Bible.