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TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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Brighton, MI
#41

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
#42
The way I understand the Father/Son/HS is that God is one God and He is Spirit. The same Spirit that formed Adam in the dirt, in a similar way formed the body (Son) known as Jesus Christ and dwells in that body as it is His body. And because He is Spirit and fully able to be omnipresent, The Spirit, or Comforter, Dwells in us as we are the Temples.
Could be wrong but I don't think I am. That's just how I understand it. Thank you for your time and interest.
Since theology is easy to misunderstand, I am taking you at your word.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#46
Since theology is easy to misunderstand, I am taking you at your word.
This says it all. Theology is easy, we can accept God as a little child and still be saved. I think to state God as persons is a misrepresentation. Does it matter if we fully understand an infinite God to serve Him? I think you worship the church fathers and take their overthinking studies as inspired word. When will the finite quit trying to define the infinite?

I think scripture tells us the Holy Spirit is the part of God that is everywhere at once. Can we fully wrap our finite minds around that? I can't. You cannot separate the Holy Spirit from the Father nor from Christ. It is what makes them God. Then scripture tells us a seed of that Spirit is planted in us. That seed will transform us into children of the Most High when it comes full circle. Praise God. 12-jump-f-joy.gif
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
#47
This says it all. Theology is easy, we can accept God as a little child and still be saved. I think to state God as persons is a misrepresentation. Does it matter if we fully understand an infinite God to serve Him? I think you worship the church fathers and take their overthinking studies as inspired word. When will the finite quit trying to define the infinite?

I think scripture tells us the Holy Spirit is the part of God that is everywhere at once. Can we fully wrap our finite minds around that? I can't. You cannot separate the Holy Spirit from the Father nor from Christ. It is what makes them God. Then scripture tells us a seed of that Spirit is planted in us. That seed will transform us into children of the Most High when it comes full circle. Praise God. View attachment 209221
The early fathers were taught by the Apostles. We were not, it is foolish to ignore such a valuable resource.

Do you think you will become a god? or do you follow the church fathers understanding of II Peter 1?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#49
Make a list of UPCI doctrines and try to find them in the early church fathers. The quotes, I next three posts proves that the early church believed in the Trinity and that Sabellianism which UPCI believes in was condemned by the early Church.

Your quotes should only come from primary sources and give a link to newadvent.org where you got the quotes.

Bottom line, if you can not find your views, doctrines outside the NT in the writings of the early church fathers who were taught by the apostles themselves or by someone the apostles taught, then the doctrines you endorse are not true interpretations of the Bible.

For edification:

1 Esdras 9:55 They were excited by the words that they had been taught. And they came together.

Wisdom 7:15 I pray that God will allow me to speak knowledgeably and to ponder well what God has taught me. God himself is the guide even of Wisdom, and God keeps those who already possess wisdom on the right course.


2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold on to the traditions we taught you, whether we taught you in person or through our letter.

Job 8:8
[ Tradition ] Ask a previous generation and verify the findings of your ancestors,

1 Corinthians 11:2
[ Appropriate dress in worship ] I praise you because you remember all my instructions, and you hold on to the traditions exactly as I handed them on to you.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
[ Discipline for the undisciplined ] Brothers and sisters, we command you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to stay away from every brother or sister who lives an undisciplined life that is not in line with the traditions that you received from us.

1 Timothy 6:20a
[ Protect the tradition ] Timothy, protect what has been given to you in trust.

Note: Tim did not have a Bible, those things were oral.

Ignatius a.d. 30–107
Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; and one Comforter, the Spirit of truth; and also one preaching, and one faith, and one baptism;
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians Chapter IV

But the Holy Spirit does not speak His own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that He received from the Father. For, says He, “the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father’s, who sent Me.” And says He of the Holy Spirit, “He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever things He shall hear from Me.” And He says of Himself to the Father, “I have,” says He, “glorified Thee upon the earth; I have finished the work which, Thou gavest Me; I have manifested Thy name to men.” And of the Holy Ghost, “He shall glorify Me, for He receives of Mine.”
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians Chapter IX

For if there is one God of the universe, the Father of Christ, “of whom are all things;” and one Lord Jesus Christ, our [Lord], “by whom are all things;” and also one Holy Spirit, who wrought in Moses, and in the prophets and apostles;
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians Chapter I

Justin Martyr a.d. 110–165
For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.
The First Apology Chapter LXI

Ireneaus a.d. 120–202
The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” . . .
Against Heresies Book I Chapter X

The rule of truth which we hold, is, that there is one God Almighty, who made all things by His Word, and fashioned and formed, out of that which had no existence, all things which exist. Thus saith the Scripture, to that effect “By the Word of the Lord were the heavens established, and all the might of them, by the spirit of His mouth.” And again, “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.” There is no exception or deduction stated; but the Father made all things by Him, whether visible or invisible, objects of sense or of intelligence, temporal, on account of a certain character given them, or eternal; and these eternal things He did not make by angels, or by any powers separated from His Ennœa.

For God needs none of all these things, but is He who, by His Word and Spirit, makes, and disposes, and governs all things, and commands all things into existence,—He who formed the world (for the world is of all),—He who fashioned man,—He [who] is the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, above whom there is no other God, nor initial principle, nor power, nor pleroma,—He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as we shall prove.
Book I Chapter XXII

Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.” Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord.
Against Heresies Book III Chapter VI

For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, “Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;” He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world.
Against Heresies Book IV Chapter XX
I am wondering if you would agree with the analogy of sock-puppets in regards to Oneness theology.

I believe this analogy reduces Oneness Theology to absurdity.

In this analogy, the puppeteer is God (YHVH). At different times he has donned one sock-puppet (Father), at other times he dons another sock-puppet (Jesus) and at other times he dons another sock-puppet (Jesus).

This imagery shows the absurdity of the Oneness theology, I think...

How can one sock-puppet have a relationship with another sock-puppet? It's like the person having a relationship with himself.

Yet we know that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit have related through eternity. In fact, that is why God is love. He didn't begin to love at the point of creation (whether angelic or human); he has always loved within his own being. He is self-sufficient, yet overflows with love and joy and wants to share it with others.

I think another big misunderstanding of Oneness relates to understanding eternal sonship and eternal procession of the Holy Spirit. They do not understand that the Father did not become a Father at the Incarnation; he has always been the Father, because the Son was eternally begotten by Him. And, the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from Him.

The terms "eternal sonship" and "eternal procession" should not be mistaken to indicate that I believe either Person had an origin. All three Persons have existed since eternity.

Anyways, claims of Oneness people in this regard betray an ignorance of these teachings.

For instance, they often say that if Trinitarianism is true, the Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus. The problem with this claim is that it is made in ignorance of eternal sonship, and the fact that Jesus was eternally begotten by the Father. He did not become the Son of God in this sense at his birth; he has always been the Son of God through eternal sonship.

My proof is that there are numerous verses stating that God sent his Son...if he was not eternally the Son..these statements could not be true.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#50
I am wondering if you would agree with the analogy of sock-puppets in regards to Oneness theology.

I believe this analogy reduces Oneness Theology to absurdity.

In this analogy, the puppeteer is God (YHVH). At different times he has donned one sock-puppet (Father), at other times he dons another sock-puppet (Jesus) and at other times he dons another sock-puppet (Jesus).

This imagery shows the absurdity of the Oneness theology, I think...

How can one sock-puppet have a relationship with another sock-puppet? It's like the person having a relationship with himself.

Yet we know that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit have related through eternity. In fact, that is why God is love. He didn't begin to love at the point of creation (whether angelic or human); he has always loved within his own being. He is self-sufficient, yet overflows with love and joy and wants to share it with others.

I think another big misunderstanding of Oneness relates to understanding eternal sonship and eternal procession of the Holy Spirit. They do not understand that the Father did not become a Father at the Incarnation; he has always been the Father, because the Son was eternally begotten by Him. And, the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from Him.

The terms "eternal sonship" and "eternal procession" should not be mistaken to indicate that I believe either Person had an origin. All three Persons have existed since eternity.

Anyways, claims of Oneness people in this regard betray an ignorance of these teachings.

For instance, they often say that if Trinitarianism is true, the Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus. The problem with this claim is that it is made in ignorance of eternal sonship, and the fact that Jesus was eternally begotten by the Father. He did not become the Son of God in this sense at his birth; he has always been the Son of God through eternal sonship.

My proof is that there are numerous verses stating that God sent his Son...if he was not eternally the Son..these statements could not be true.
By the way, I think Steven's position on anti-Trinitarianism and its repercussions on salvation is correct. If someone is confused, especially as a new Christian, this is understandable. If someone is openly and defiantly refusing the Trinity and teaching others that the Church is wrong on this doctrine, especially over a long period of time, then I would doubt that they are saved.

I would extend that to all areas of essential Christian doctrine.

As an example, I belonged to a cultic group that denied justification by faith alone. I left this cult long ago. I looked at a book written by the founder of the group, where he explained the view of justification by faith alone and then proceeded to reject it, and to declare that it was a lie. I could see by his explanation that he clearly understood what the Church taught on this issue, but he rejected it. I do not think that he was a confused believer; he simply rejected the teaching. Therefore, he stands before God on the merits of his own righteousness, rather than Jesus' righteousness, and thus is lost unless he rejected his defiant attitude before he died. If God doesn't find legal righteousness to be acceptable for Israel, he's not going to find it acceptable for this man either (Romans 11).

So, I do think the Trinity doctrine is a salvation issue, in the qualified sense that I mentioned above. In my case, I was an ignorant cultist who trusted in Jesus but was taught an improper view. I was spiritually impoverished but it was because I was ill-instructed. The cult leader was not in the same position, and neither are many others today.