Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Well, I see that you have a word search Bible software program, with which to play with.
I'm not going to ask you what this says to you. I'll just explain it for you.
Those believers who don't abide in Him, WILL be ashamed at his coming.
What this verse doesn't say is those who don't abide him Him will miss out on the believers' resurrection. Or salvation.
I'm not going to ask you what this says to you. I'll just explain it for you.
Those believers who don't abide in Him, WILL be ashamed at his coming.
What this verse doesn't say is those who don't abide him Him will miss out on the believers' resurrection. Or salvation.
Once again, "abiding" refers to a reciprocal relationship, which proves that this verse isn't about maintaining salvation by resisting the urge to kill someone.
If "abiding" did refer to salvation, then that would prove that man DOES have an effort to maintain in order to be saved.
Are you willing to argue that?
If "abiding" did refer to salvation, then that would prove that man DOES have an effort to maintain in order to be saved.
Are you willing to argue that?
(1) I really have no comment on your references to Acts 16:31 and the aorist tense and its meaning, etc. That would be and is a very valid and interesting study. I in this discussion was only looking at John 10: 27,28
(2) You said "YEP" to my comment that We differ on how we interpret the Greek present tense here. So we do agree on the text of the verse itself, but disagree on our interpretation of it.
(2) You said "YEP" to my comment that We differ on how we interpret the Greek present tense here. So we do agree on the text of the verse itself, but disagree on our interpretation of it.
1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
If you claim that you are saved then you should walk even as he walked.
1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
What does eternal life mean? Does it mean that you abide forever? Because this verse says that he that doeth the will of God abides forever.
1John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
You claim "once saved always saved", perhaps, but I don't want to be ashamed at the Lord's coming and that means you need to abide in Him. That is not once for all, you make your home in the Lord. You go to sleep in Him, you wake up in Him, you live and walk and have your being in Him.
1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Enough with this pathetic attempt to say we can't know who is saved and who isn't. If you hate your brother you are a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Again, whatever you are talking about as "salvation" is a very poor salvation. I don't want to ashamed, I don't want to be saved through fire, I don't want my works burned up, I want to build with gold, silver and precious stones, I don't want to suffer loss at my salvation.
Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
If you don't want to be ashamed at the Lord's coming then you need to be sanctified. This discussion of salvation completely ignores sanctification as though it isn't important. Well if you want to be saved from being ashamed it is critical.
Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
If you do not desire a better country then God will be ashamed of you.
1John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
If you don't want to be ashamed at the Lord's coming you need to abide in Him.
If you claim that you are saved then you should walk even as he walked.
1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
What does eternal life mean? Does it mean that you abide forever? Because this verse says that he that doeth the will of God abides forever.
1John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
You claim "once saved always saved", perhaps, but I don't want to be ashamed at the Lord's coming and that means you need to abide in Him. That is not once for all, you make your home in the Lord. You go to sleep in Him, you wake up in Him, you live and walk and have your being in Him.
1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Enough with this pathetic attempt to say we can't know who is saved and who isn't. If you hate your brother you are a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Again, whatever you are talking about as "salvation" is a very poor salvation. I don't want to ashamed, I don't want to be saved through fire, I don't want my works burned up, I want to build with gold, silver and precious stones, I don't want to suffer loss at my salvation.
Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
If you don't want to be ashamed at the Lord's coming then you need to be sanctified. This discussion of salvation completely ignores sanctification as though it isn't important. Well if you want to be saved from being ashamed it is critical.
Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
If you do not desire a better country then God will be ashamed of you.
1John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
If you don't want to be ashamed at the Lord's coming you need to abide in Him.
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To make the point that Jesus was referring to believers, who are "My sheep". So v.27 is about what believers DO or ought to do. It isn't a condition for receiving eternal life.
In fact, Jesus begins with "My sheep", meaning they are already saved and already have eternal life. So v.28 teaches the result of being given eternal life; which is to never perish. Or the guarantee of eternal security.
Too many people get confused by the metaphors and such. That's why I quoted the verses and inserted the word "believers" to keep the focus on who Jesus was referring to.
He sure wasn't referring to the 4 legged bleating kind.
In fact, Jesus begins with "My sheep", meaning they are already saved and already have eternal life. So v.28 teaches the result of being given eternal life; which is to never perish. Or the guarantee of eternal security.
Too many people get confused by the metaphors and such. That's why I quoted the verses and inserted the word "believers" to keep the focus on who Jesus was referring to.
He sure wasn't referring to the 4 legged bleating kind.
When you say:
So v.27 is about what believers DO or ought to do. It isn't a condition for receiving eternal life.
In fact, Jesus begins with "My sheep", meaning they are already saved and already have eternal life. So v.28 teaches the result of being given eternal life; which is to never perish. Or the guarantee of eternal security.
I am not sure what all you are trying to get at here: I don't see exactly what you are saying stated that exact way in the text, so it is obviously what you think it means or implies, and that is OK - so I think we are back to admitting that we interpret the text in different ways.
For me, as I stated earlier this text says:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
This is such a wonderful, deep, life-changing truth, and I thank the Lord for it!
FreeGrace2 said:
ZNP, what do you think the verses you have quoted teach?
If you suppose that they, or any of them, teach that salvation is conditioned upon one's behavior, please show me the words that make it clear.
None of these verses support your claim. And your claim goes directly against the teaching of Jesus Himself about eternal security.
From the MOMENT one becomes a believer, they are given eternal life (John 5:24) and shall never perish (Jn 10:28).
Since you disagree, prove me from from those verses, that you think don't say what I say.
ZNP, what do you think the verses you have quoted teach?
If you suppose that they, or any of them, teach that salvation is conditioned upon one's behavior, please show me the words that make it clear.
None of these verses support your claim. And your claim goes directly against the teaching of Jesus Himself about eternal security.
From the MOMENT one becomes a believer, they are given eternal life (John 5:24) and shall never perish (Jn 10:28).
Since you disagree, prove me from from those verses, that you think don't say what I say.
You'll have to decide, in your own imagination, whether this person of YOUR IMAGINATION was saved or not.
How should I know what your imagination has decided?
You'll have to be much more specific in what you mean by "walks with the Lord" and "falls away" for anyone to be able to come close to discerning whether it is possible that this hypothetical person was saved to begin with.
How should I know what your imagination has decided?
You'll have to be much more specific in what you mean by "walks with the Lord" and "falls away" for anyone to be able to come close to discerning whether it is possible that this hypothetical person was saved to begin with.
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