Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

The False Doctrine is thinking that you can dispel the hatred and unforgiveness in your heart. YOU CAN'T. Only the Lord Jesus Can. And He does that by giving you a New Heart. One not filled with hate and unforgiveness.

Hi Grandpa.

About unforgiveness, the passage that was being discussed was this from Mat 18: "32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

That only the Lord can help us overcome unforgiveness, agreed. But the question here is, is being forgiven/justified once enough to go to Heaven? If we see here, the wicked servant was forgiven once, then he refused to forgive his neighbor. We know for sure that he was truly forgiven (lest someone say, "He was never forgiven/justified in the first place"), because the Master explicitly says so, in judging him: "I forgave thee ... should you not also have compassion ... just as I had pity on thee"). God forgives us and gives us a new heart. He both empowers us and and also expects us to forgive others.

But He doesn't take away our free will. If, after being truly forgiven, we refuse to forgive others, God won't forgive us our future sins, and we can go to Hell, if we don't repent over that unforgiveness. That's what Our Lord teaches here very clearly and He also teaches it in Our Lord's Prayer. Let me ask you, if forgiveness were a one time thing, why would Our Lord tell us to ask for it often, just as we ask often for our Daily Bread? It is not a one time thing. 1 Jn 1:9 shows that.

1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

Salvation and Eternal Life is NOT something we work to earn. It is not something we can emulate. It is what Christ gives us when we come to Him and ask.

I agree in this sense. Suppose someone committed many sins, but confessed and repented over them on his deathbed, believing in Christ as Lord and Savior, then yes, he would be forgiven (per 1 Jn 1:9 etc), by the Grace and Mercy of God, and would go to Heaven.

However, as 2 Pet 1:9-11 says, we are commanded by the Lord to do certain things, if we hope to never stumble. What things? Let me quote the passage:

"9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

This passage also says that just being cleansed once from past sins is not a guarantee of never stumbling. It says to make every effort to confirm your calling and election. How to do that is explained in 2 Pet 1:5-8:

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There's an idea popular today that any kind of effort to progress in spiritual life is something wrong. Sorry, that's not what the Bible says. God forgives our sins, and gives us abundant grace to overcome. He also expects us to put efforts to do so.

Be back shortly to answer the others who responded to me. God Bless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'll wait for any verse that you can find that SAYS what you SAY. Bereans accept no less than that.

you agree that to have the Guarantee spoken about in Verse 14 a person must first have Trust in God in Verse 13.

Of course.

so no guarantee until there is first Trust in God.

So what? The point is that the guarantee is for those who "have believed". It doesn't matter to the unbeliever. In fact, it is irrelevant. The promise will be given to those who believe.

that is a condition: trust in God = Guarantee

I don't know why you are beating this poor horse so much.

but, you disagree if that TRUST is removed after one is Saved the Guarantee is no longer in effect based upon not mentioned in the Bible?

Correct. It is very wrong to assume that it is our trust that keeps us saved, which seems to be your view. Where do you get that from?

Certainly not the Bible.

you do understand the New Testament is only teaching how to be Saved, not how to Walk Away after you're Saved?

In fact, the Bible is clear that those who walk away will suffer God's discipline in this life.

so if a person Trusts and is Saved but loses their Trust they should not be Saved.

Thank you for your opinion. But the Bible does NOT teach that. Or prove that it does with a verse that actually says what you say.

you claim to be a Berean:

Because I study the teachings of others the way the Bereans did.

in the Garden, the Serpent deceived Eve.
the Church teaches the Serpent is named Satan but [[((nowhere))]] in the Bible does it claim the Serpent is Satan.

So what? Why do you focus on such irrelevant things?

as a Berean, how do you believe the Serpent is Satan when it is not told to us in the Bible anywhere?

Your ridiculous argument is akin to the argument that since "Trinity" isn't found in the Bible, it isn't true.

a true Berean would not believe the Serpent who beguiled Eve was Satan because the Bible does not name the Serpent.

You don't have any idea how I view the serpent, so you are just blowing smoke.

but you can believe the Serpent is Satan but cannot believe if you stop Trusting God you are no longer Saved?

As I said previously, the only way I will believe your claim is if there is a verse that plainly says what you say.

So, you make this claim. Other than your own opinion, where did you learn this idea from?

you're not a Berean but someone who uses the Bible out of CONVENIENCE without ever applying Common Sense to it!

You have no idea what you are talking about. More smoke blowing.

But get back to me when you find that verse that says what you claim.

Having read through the NT monthly for over 2 decades, I can assure you that there is no such verse.

So this is your opportunity to prove me wrong by quoting a verse that says what you say.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

1Co 11:27
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

1Co 11:28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

1Co 11:29
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks ???judgment??? to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

1Co 11:30
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.

1Co 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

1Co 11:32
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Hi CV5. Ok.

If you are saying, we are often chastened by the Lord in this life, so that we may not be condemned in the next, agreed.

But the question is what happens to those who draw back/turn away from the Lord altogether? The people in the above passage didn't do that, but just didn't prepare themselves well for Holy Communion, presumably still believing in Jesus.

In Heb 10:39, it says:

"But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

This passage imo refutes both versions of OSAS, both Calvinist OSAS and Free Grace OSAS.

Calvinist OSAS: True Apostasy is not really possible. If someone falls away, they never believed in the first place.
Free Grace OSAS: True Apostasy is really possible, but doesn't matter. If someone falls away, they can still be saved as apostates.

But the Bible says above: Those who draw back from the Faith do so unto perdition i.e. to the loss of their souls.

And, it shows that it is really possible to draw back unto perdition, after having really believed. That's why he exhorts them so much to persevere in their Faith, including through trials, tribulations, persecutions etc, in order to receive the Promise.

"35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. 37For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38But My righteous one will live by faith; and if he shrinks back, I will take no pleasure in him.”

2 Pet 2:20-22 is another passage that shows apostasy is possible and is worse than never knowing the Lord. It is sad but true.

I know some OSASers who are Good Christians, and I appreciate them. Others are fairly lax and liberal, and I fear for them. Still others once professed faith in Christ, but today have fallen away from Him altogether? Just saying "I am OSAS" is no guarantee one will persevere in faith.

God Bless.

 

[cv5]

In Heb 10:39, it says:

"But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

This passage imo refutes both versions of OSAS, both Calvinist OSAS and Free Grace OSAS.
.

Totally disagree bro. Hebrews 6 & 10 are by far the most abysmally exegeted chapters in all the bible.

Yet it is very simple.

A careful reading of Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10, indicates three different parties: us/we, you/ye, and those/them/they. The first two are saved.......the last one is not.

 

[cv5]

Hi CV5. Ok.

If you are saying, we are often chastened by the Lord in this life, so that we may not be condemned in the next, agreed.

Actually what I am saying is that believers only get the woodshed and stripes. Everyone else gets the court and judgement.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Actually what I am saying is that believers only get the woodshed and stripes. Everyone else gets the court and judgement.

Ok. And what is your understanding of the below? The passage says it's worse for them than in the beginning, which shows that those who turn away from Christ after knowing Him (apostasy) are in a worse state than those who never knew Him.

2 Pet 2:

"20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Washed refers to being washed from one's sins after believing and being baptized. This passage shows those truly justified can fall away such that the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. This is what the Bible teaches.

God Bless.

 

[Grandpa]

Nonsense. The gospel promise is a choice in and of itself. You are just kidding yourself.

Nope. Its called experience.

You confuse "trust" with "believe". Some believe a red stove top is hot because they experienced a hot stove. Others believe a red stove top is hot because their mother told them it is hot and they TRUSTED her. Do you see the difference.

James 2:19 says demons believe that God is One. Why? Was that belief from trust? No. It was from experience. God created them and they lived with Him in heaven until they were kicked out.

Do demons TRUST God? No, they hate Him and everything about Him.

No. It is you who is confusing trust with "believe".

I didn't mention "believe" at all. You did. And then PURPOSELY conflate trust with believe.

Trust is different than belief.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

FreeGrace2 said:
So this is your opportunity to prove me wrong by quoting a verse that says what you say.

i can easily prove you only believe what you want to and not what's not in the Bible.

you believe Satan is the Serpent when the Bible nowhere says it is Satan.

you believe the Trinity when no one in the Bible used the word Trinity.

but because it disagrees with your False Doctrine, you choose to believe not Trusting God = no Salvation after once being Saved.

you literally make it up as you choose to.

no one should ever listen to anything you have to say!

 

[Grandpa]

i trust i can hammer nails but once in awhile i end up hammering my finger. then i become cautious.

i trust Gravity because i can mathematically prove its existence alongside experience it.

but is there a tragedy, like some have faced, which made them question God and resulted losing their Trust in God? i know of several examples. maybe they weren't as strong in their belief and walk in God like You or myself, but they did believe and now think God failed them.

it happens all the time.

if you don't know of any examples like that, you probably don't get outside to the real world very much!

Did you try it?

Did you try NOT trusting in gravity?

Because of some tragedy or whatever else?

Just as an experiment. See if you can do it.

 

[Grandpa]

Hi Grandpa.

About unforgiveness, the passage that was being discussed was this from Mat 18: "32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

That only the Lord can help us overcome unforgiveness, agreed. But the question here is, is being forgiven/justified once enough to go to Heaven? If we see here, the wicked servant was forgiven once, then he refused to forgive his neighbor. We know for sure that he was truly forgiven (lest someone say, "He was never forgiven/justified in the first place"), because the Master explicitly says so, in judging him: "I forgave thee ... should you not also have compassion ... just as I had pity on thee"). God forgives us and gives us a new heart. He both empowers us and and also expects us to forgive others.

But He doesn't take away our free will. If, after being truly forgiven, we refuse to forgive others, God won't forgive us our future sins, and we can go to Hell, if we don't repent over that unforgiveness. That's what Our Lord teaches here very clearly and He also teaches it in Our Lord's Prayer. Let me ask you, if forgiveness were a one time thing, why would Our Lord tell us to ask for it often, just as we ask often for our Daily Bread? It is not a one time thing. 1 Jn 1:9 shows that.

1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

Being forgiven of sin is different than Salvation.

ESPECIALLY in Judaism where they did animal sacrifices all the time.

How long did those sacrifices last? One animal sacrifice for a persons whole life? No, of course not.


So, keeping this in mind, How could a person who practices Judaism forgive ALL his brothers of ALL their trespasses all the time in order to earn forgiveness of the Father?

He can't. His only choice is to come to Christ and receive a New Heart filled with the Love of the Father and Gods Forgiveness.

 

[cv5]

Ok. And what is your understanding of the below? The passage says it's worse for them than in the beginning, which shows that those who turn away from Christ after knowing Him (apostasy) are in a worse state than those who never knew Him.

2 Pet 2:

"20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Washed refers to being washed from one's sins after believing and being baptized. This passage shows those truly justified can fall away such that the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. This is what the Bible teaches.

God Bless.

Those passages talking about that Hillsong guy. Not believing aka faithful Christians.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Nonsense. The gospel promise is a choice in and of itself. You are just kidding yourself.

Nope. Its called experience.

I've explained the difference. You just don't understand.

No. It is you who is confusing trust with "believe".

Mr Confusion, please listen. Believing comes from TWO different ways.

1. experience. One believes because they experienced something.
2. faith or trust. One believes because they TRUST the One who tells them something.

I gave you the example of a hot stove. I'm sorry it went over your head.

I didn't mention "believe" at all. You did. And then PURPOSELY conflate trust with believe.

How do you conflate 2 things that are synonyms?

Trust is different than belief.

OK Mr Confusion. I've explained the difference already, but it flew right over your head.

Now, your turn. Please explain the difference between trust and belief.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So this is your opportunity to prove me wrong by quoting a verse that says what you say.

i can easily prove you only believe what you want to and not what's not in the Bible.

you believe Satan is the Serpent when the Bible nowhere says it is Satan.

Where did I say that the serpent is Satan?

you believe the Trinity when no one in the Bible used the word Trinity.

So you don't believe in the trinity then. That would make you a heretic.

but because it disagrees with your False Doctrine, you choose to believe not Trusting God = no Salvation after once being Saved.
you literally make it up as you choose to.
no one should ever listen to anything you have to say!

In addition to your wild confusion, you don't make any sense at all.

Given the kind of logic (fuzzy) that you demonstrate, I see no point in further discussion with you.

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
Nonsense. The gospel promise is a choice in and of itself. You are just kidding yourself.

I've explained the difference. You just don't understand.


Mr Confusion, please listen. Believing comes from TWO different ways.

1. experience. One believes because they experienced something.
2. faith or trust. One believes because they TRUST the One who tells them something.

I gave you the example of a hot stove. I'm sorry it went over your head.


How do you conflate 2 things that are synonyms?


OK Mr Confusion. I've explained the difference already, but it flew right over your head.

Now, your turn. Please explain the difference between trust and belief.

I'm not talking about belief AT ALL. I'm talking about trust.

You wouldn't get it anyways and it would be a waste of time.

Try to focus.

 

[ZNP]

I'm not talking about belief AT ALL. I'm talking about trust.

You wouldn't get it anyways and it would be a waste of time.

Try to focus.

It is very clear that FreeGrace2 has no intention of getting it, the goal of this thread is not that he would but rather that others would not be deceived.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not talking about belief AT ALL. I'm talking about trust.

Right. Because you don't what they mean.

You wouldn't get it anyways and it would be a waste of time.

This is just a cop-out when a person cannot answer intelligently.

Try to focus.

All I can focus on is your demonstration of inability to explain how belief and trust aren't the same.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is very clear that FreeGrace2 has no intention of getting it, the goal of this thread is not that he would but rather that others would not be deceived.

Do YOU have the ability to explain the difference between belief and trust? Gramps didn't have the ability.

 

[ZNP]

Do YOU have the ability to explain the difference between belief and trust? Gramps didn't have the ability.

I cannot see your heart, I don't know who has belief and who doesn't. But I can see trust. I can see Abraham trusting God when he offers up his son.

Read that again, God says to Abraham now I know your heart.

 

[ZNP]

We are blessed because we obey the Lord's voice

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

 

[Runningman]

Do YOU have the ability to explain the difference between belief and trust? Gramps didn't have the ability.

Belief and trust don't have to be 100% of either. There is middle ground that exists between the two. With people, we may believe certain things they say and may trust certain things they say, but their repertoire may require evidence and/or proof be produced often enough until confidence is gained.

When Jesus came He said He is the Messiah among many other things. What people saw was just another man like the thousands upon thousands of other men in the area.

If someone walked up to you, pointed at a man, and said "Look, there's the Messiah." What would you say? Would you instantaneously believe/trust them, dismiss them, or require some proof? That's exactly what happened when Jesus came. Practically everyone wanted to see some miracles, some signs, some evidences and proofs. Their belief and trust went from skepticism to somewhere on a range of partial to full belief/trust.