Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[ZNP]

Let's use an analogy. If you are rock climbing they have a rope that will hold you and keep you from falling. If you use the tools correctly then you will never fall. Yes, you may slip, and yes you might even fall for fifty or a hundred feet, but the rope will catch you and save you.

But what if you forsake that rope like some rock climbers?

According to the OSAS doctrine once you use the rope you can never ever forsake it. They make it sound like you are now imprisoned. Paul was a prisoner of the Lord, but that was by choice. The prison does not have a lock on the door. The same is true of the rope you can use it if you wish, you can forsake it if you wish. The children of Israel who are examples to the NT saints, forsook it. We are told in the NT very clearly that these examples are a warning to us.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I know he’s talking about faith because I know the requirements for eternal life. Notice in 1 John 5 he didn’t say knowledge is necessary, it’s believing, but it’s obviously not belief alone since even devils do that. This is the kind of believing that involves faith and trust.

1 John 5
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There is nothing in 1 John 2 that says these people ever had faith or eternal life. The very passage you showed shows they had knowledge. No one was ever saved by Knowledge, Yet many people who had head knowledge but not heart knowledge in which they entrusted their eternity to God not only walked in the churches in John day, they walk in our churches today. And these same churches witness many of these people walk away now giving God the middle finger and denying that he is even real. John is giving those in the church support. I myself have been deeply saddened by someone I tried so hard to help and was close to who walked away and went back to the world denying Christ and the church.. Johns words help us, in that we can be encouraged to know they were never of us to begin with. All of our hope and hard work with them was not in vein, they never believed it. we did not fail. as jesus said in John six, there are people who walk with Jesus who do not believe.. Many of them left, and one of them was the devil (judas)

we have people like that in our churches, we need encouraged, We need to know that God did not fail, that they never recieved him in the first place. and thats why they left.. because like Judas. they had alterior motives for walking with us.. and the fact they were never truly born again, they ended up exposing who they really were.. As john said, if they were of us, they never would have left. but they left to expose who they really were.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

and those who lose their faith keep their eternal life?

If eternal life can be lost, its not eternal.

you ask the wrong question. Can people who truly had faith and are adopted by God into his family and see his mighty work and have the spirit in them ever lose faith?

I can think of but two reasons that could happen

1. God failed them
2. They never truly had faith to begin with, and were never adopted as sons.

I hope you and I can agree number 1 is not really an option. God never fails anyone.

 

[ZNP]

There is nothing in 1 John 2 that says these people ever had faith or eternal life. The very passage you showed shows they had knowledge. No one was ever saved by Knowledge, Yet many people who had head knowledge but not heart knowledge in which they entrusted their eternity to God not only walked in the churches in John day, they walk in our churches today. And these same churches witness many of these people walk away now giving God the middle finger and denying that he is even real. John is giving those in the church support. I myself have been deeply saddened by someone I tried so hard to help and was close to who walked away and went back to the world denying Christ and the church.. Johns words help us, in that we can be encouraged to know they were never of us to begin with. All of our hope and hard work with them was not in vein, they never believed it. we did not fail. as jesus said in John six, there are people who walk with Jesus who do not believe.. Many of them left, and one of them was the devil (judas)

we have people like that in our churches, we need encouraged, We need to know that God did not fail, that they never recieved him in the first place. and thats why they left.. because like Judas. they had alterior motives for walking with us.. and the fact they were never truly born again, they ended up exposing who they really were.. As john said, if they were of us, they never would have left. but they left to expose who they really were.

So it is just like those in the OT. You have people in the church who have drunk from the same rock, they prayed the same prayer, they passed through the same red sea, and they saw the same miracles, but for them it was only knowledge, not faith.

Very useful doctrine, it allows you to explain away everything.

 

[ZNP]

If eternal life can be lost, its not eternal.

you ask the wrong question. Can people who truly had faith and are adopted by God into his family and see his mighty work and have the spirit in them ever lose faith?

I can think of but two reasons that could happen

1. God failed them
2. They never truly had faith to begin with, and were never adopted as sons.

I hope you and I can agree number 1 is not really an option. God never fails anyone.

Let's just ignore Esau, nothing to see there.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I can’t argue with your experience regarding OSAS believers, perhaps you’ve seen a trend as you describe above, but I’m not even remotely close to being in either category.

I know of no person who believes in eternal security who is a universalist. And I know very few calvinist. Being a calvinist leads people to osas. Osas does nto lead people to calvinism

sadly I think alot of the anti OSAS rhetoric is more anti calvinist than anything else.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Let's use an analogy. If you are rock climbing they have a rope that will hold you and keep you from falling. If you use the tools correctly then you will never fall. Yes, you may slip, and yes you might even fall for fifty or a hundred feet, but the rope will catch you and save you.

But what if you forsake that rope like some rock climbers?

According to the OSAS doctrine once you use the rope you can never ever forsake it. They make it sound like you are now imprisoned. Paul was a prisoner of the Lord, but that was by choice. The prison does not have a lock on the door. The same is true of the rope you can use it if you wish, you can forsake it if you wish. The children of Israel who are examples to the NT saints, forsook it. We are told in the NT very clearly that these examples are a warning to us.

you miss the point altogether.

1. We are not rick climbing, we could never reach the top. we do not have that power
2. It is God who rescues us. He holds on to us, and he promises he will never let go. and no one, including ourselves, can snatch us from his hands

You have to get off the works mindset of thinking you can climb the stairway to heaven. Its an impossible climb, You must be rescued (saved)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So it is just like those in the OT. You have people in the church who have drunk from the same rock, they prayed the same prayer, they passed through the same red sea, and they saw the same miracles, but for them it was only knowledge, not faith.

Very useful doctrine, it allows you to explain away everything.

Those same people did not enter the promised land, because they lacked faith. Even after all the miracles. they still did not trust God or the men that God put over them.

so yeah, sadly many people will be just like them..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Let's just ignore Esau, nothing to see there.

have absolutely no comprehension of what esau has to do with this..

God chose to bring up his nation his way, Not mans way. Thats why he chose Jacob instead.. To bring up his nation. it had nothign to do with the salvation of either child. for all we know. we will see them both in Heaven

 

[Sipsey]

Yes, I am also aware that God is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8) and I am also aware that the things that happened in the OT Were given to us as examples

1Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

I am also aware that those who hold to OSAS have to say that much of the OT does not apply to them, so they deny these two truths.

So then you are also aware that Deuteronomy 28:20, speaks to the nation of Israel , of the blessings and cursing that are the terms of their covenant, and contains much prophesy, much of which is fulfilled? That it indeed has lessons for us today, but to Israel specifically.

 

[ZNP]

have absolutely no comprehension of what esau has to do with this..

God chose to bring up his nation his way, Not mans way. Thats why he chose Jacob instead.. To bring up his nation. it had nothign to do with the salvation of either child. for all we know. we will see them both in Heaven

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

It should be very clear to anyone reading this thread that people like Everlasting-Grace ignore, explain away or have a bizarre understanding of the scriptures.

 

[ZNP]

So then you are also aware that Deuteronomy 28:20, speaks to the nation of Israel , of the blessings and cursing that are the terms of their covenant, and contains much prophesy, much of which is fulfilled? That it indeed has lessons for us today, but to Israel specifically.

Deuteronomy 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

The point of this whole debate about OSAS is to distract us from the key points. There is a curse if you go after other gods. Materialism in the church is evidence of Christians going after other gods. The emphasis on material blessing being evidence of spiritual blessing shows they are worshipping other gods. Xmas is all about worshipping other gods. A Christmas tree is an idol whose roots are in Babylonian worship. Santa, reindeer and the North pole are all old wives tales that we were told to avoid.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

It should be very clear to anyone reading this thread that people like Everlasting-Grace ignore, explain away or have a bizarre understanding of the scriptures.

Esau lost his birthright and the blessings that came with it.

He did not lose salvation. Receiving his birthright was not required to be saved.

what is evident is you are insistend on trying to climb the stairway to heaven by your own power and not let God carry you there

You will fail. as all who have ever tried to offer God human good and religion, who have failed in the same manner

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Deuteronomy 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

The point of this whole debate about OSAS is to distract us from the key points. There is a curse if you go after other gods. Materialism in the church is evidence of Christians going after other gods. The emphasis on material blessing being evidence of spiritual blessing shows they are worshipping other gods. Xmas is all about worshipping other gods. A Christmas tree is an idol whose roots are in Babylonian worship. Santa, reindeer and the North pole are all old wives tales that we were told to avoid.

There was a curse. Isreal was scattered though out her enemies lands..People like Daniel were taken prisoner into an enemies home, because the nation did not obey

your once again trying to insert works for justification. No one will ever be saved by works, we are only saved By Gods mercy..

 

[Runningman]

If eternal life can be lost, its not eternal.

you ask the wrong question. Can people who truly had faith and are adopted by God into his family and see his mighty work and have the spirit in them ever lose faith?

I can think of but two reasons that could happen

1. God failed them
2. They never truly had faith to begin with, and were never adopted as sons.

I hope you and I can agree number 1 is not really an option. God never fails anyone.

It isn’t that God is not faithful, it’s actually rather that He is faithful to the promise He has made, but there are conditions to the the promise. To give eternal life base to those who do not continue to meet the requirements would be unfaithful.

Bottom line is, if what John said is true, then there’s clearly a continual abiding required. If one is not abiding, then they don’t meet the requirements of eternal life.

1 John 2:24,25 NKJV
24Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this isthe promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

1 John 5:11,12
11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It isn’t that God is not faithful, it’s actually rather that He is faithful to the promise He has made, but there are conditions to the the promise. To give eternal life base to those who do not continue to meet the requirements would be unfaithful.

Bottom line is, if what John said is true, then there’s clearly a continual abiding required. If one is not abiding, then they don’t meet the requirements of eternal life.

1 John 2:24,25 NKJV
24Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this isthe promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

1 John 5:11,12
11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

There is no condition. We are saved by Grace period.

All God asks us to do is recieve his gift in faith.

Just because one has knowledge of how to be saved does not mean they have acted on that knowledge and said yes to God in faith. Many have not. Thats why John made the warning. not to threaten people that they will lose salvation if they do not abide. in the faith. but to make sure that they do not just sit on the knowledge they have an act on it.

Your right, He gives eternal life to hose who believe.. Knowledge is not belief. And eternal life is a gift, it is not conditional. If it is conditional. then it is not a gift.

The gift of Eternal life was promised before time began. and remember, God an not lie

 

[ZNP]

There was a curse. Isreal was scattered though out her enemies lands..People like Daniel were taken prisoner into an enemies home, because the nation did not obey

your once again trying to insert works for justification. No one will ever be saved by works, we are only saved By Gods mercy..

No I'm not.

There is no post of mine that would suggest that, this is known as a straw man argument, you can't respond to this argument so you make a straw man that you can defeat. Bogus and shameful for someone professing to be standing on God's Holy word and truth.

So everyone should be very clear on what Everlasting-Grace is saying

Saved does not mean you won't perish.

Saved does not mean you have an inheritance.

Saved does not mean you won't be cursed.

Saved does not mean you won't be rejected.

You can think you are saved but aren't.

Others can also think you are saved but they too are wrong.

 

[Runningman]

There is no condition. We are saved by Grace period.

All God asks us to do is recieve his gift in faith.

Just because one has knowledge of how to be saved does not mean they have acted on that knowledge and said yes to God in faith. Many have not. Thats why John made the warning. not to threaten people that they will lose salvation if they do not abide. in the faith. but to make sure that they do not just sit on the knowledge they have an act on it.

Your right, He gives eternal life to hose who believe.. Knowledge is not belief. And eternal life is a gift, it is not conditional. If it is conditional. then it is not a gift.

The gift of Eternal life was promised before time began. and remember, God an not lie

I just don't see where OSAS in the Bible and I have a pretty open mind about it. The evidence is pretty stacked against OSAS being accurate especially when the words "let" and "if" are used to make 1 John 2:24,25 conditional. This isn't even just 1 John. From Genesis to Revelation there's evidence against OSAS, but nothing I see supports eternal life being given to those who lose their faith.

 

[Runningman]

I can’t argue with your experience regarding OSAS believers, perhaps you’ve seen a trend as you describe above, but I’m not even remotely close to being in either category.

That's because people who believe in OSAS tend to (but not always like you said) believe that faith is a gift that God chooses who to give to. If that's true, it means He more or less handpicks who is saved and who isn't which is exactly what unconditional election (sovereign election) is. That's Calvinism.

If it is God's will that none should perish, but that all come to repentance, then why wouldn't God give the gift of faith to everyone who has ever lived and save everyone? That's Universalism.

If faith is something we produce then it's something we can stop producing. If that's true, and faith is required to access God's grace, then OSAS can't be true.

Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 10
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No I'm not.

There is no post of mine that would suggest that, this is known as a straw man argument, you can't respond to this argument so you make a straw man that you can defeat. Bogus and shameful for someone professing to be standing on God's Holy word and truth.

My friend, you need to reread your posts. they are all about works, and doing or losing your salvation if you do not

So everyone should be very clear on what Everlasting-Grace is saying

Saved does not mean you won't perish.

Saved does not mean you have an inheritance.

Saved does not mean you won't be cursed.

Saved does not mean you won't be rejected.

You can think you are saved but aren't.

Others can also think you are saved but they too are wrong.

Everlasting-Grace only says the last one of this list.

the rest are your beliefs. not mine.

If your saved your saved, If you can ever be lost. your not really saved now are you?

What good was it if Israel was saved from egypt but lost their souls. Thats prety much what happened to most of them.