Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Magenta]

You will not find that in this text as Adam & Eve had a free will and they chose to eat the fruit and thus sin. I think where the problem comes in with the understanding of this text is that some people have the view that is put forward in the LBCF or the WCF that places all actions of man in Gods' hands.

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE
Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of
His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;... London Baptist Confession of Faith

We find the same words in the WCF. If God had indeed taken away all free will of man then since He would be the only one that could make choices then He would by default be responsible for Adams sin.

Not only that, but we seem to have people who believe that God works at cross purposes, both
drawing them and desiring them to come while at the same time preventing them from doing so

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed
to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

 

[Magenta]

They left , they leave because they were never saved...
I trust in the Lords word , I believe in Him , His promises are true , I do not doubt Him whatsoever...

The LORD is the anchor to my soul , I am in the Vine , the Father Almighty God has dressed
me on the Vine , that is where He has placed me , in His Son for all eternity Amen...

1 John 2:19

 

[tstumf]

I learned recently that though I thought I was saved. I as 9 year old child in 1997 allegedly accepted Jesus into my heart. I still have my childhood bible where the acceptance was documented by my mother. I really believe I wasn’t saved till last year though. So I wonder ,Could it have been possible for me as child to be so obedient or fearful of my parents wishes That I may have said the words of acceptance to just make them happy and satisfied but had no clue at that point what I was accepting? Then perhaps I made an agreement that well that’s all there is to it, and moved on with life largely separated from God?
Had I have been saved at that point, I never would have justified my actions, I would have thought holy spirt would have convicted me of my sins till I repented. Back then, I would have told you I was a Christian but my walk was not of a Christian life clear up into my 30s . At best I was living a very lethargic Christian life not of one alive and growing. I was walking around claiming I was a Christian if asked but my faith was effectively dead as I look back on it. I was living as a practical atheist or maybe a deist only praying for only what I wanted to hear. I never experienced Holy Spirit till recently at 32. What should I make of this and how can I ensure I don’t make the same mistake with my own son when it comes time for him to accept Jesus in his heart? I’m assuming this is a generational sin passed down and I want it to end with me.

Also I ran across a John piper podcast that tells his take on the once saved allways saved thing.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/can-a-born-again-christian-lose-salvation

 

[Icedaisey]

They left , they leave because they were never saved...
I trust in the Lords word , I believe in Him , His promises are true , I do not doubt Him whatsoever...

The LORD is the anchor to my soul , I am in the Vine , the Father Almighty God has dressed me on the Vine , that is where He has placed me , in His Son for all eternity Amen...

Just because someone walks away from the faith doesn't mean they were never saved. The Prodigal Son parable tells us this.

Why do we labor and strive to oppose what Jesus sealed in the elect for all time? Eternal irrevocable Salvation.

Makes no sense to insist it isn't true. Especially when elect Christians go to that effort.

 

[Magenta]

Just because someone walks away from the faith doesn't mean they were never saved. The Prodigal Son parable tells us this.

Why do we labor and strive to oppose what Jesus sealed in the elect for all time? Eternal irrevocable Salvation.

Makes no sense to insist it isn't true. Especially when elect Christians go to that effort.

Where are we told in the parable of the prodigal son, that either son was already saved?

I would love to see it...

 

[Icedaisey]

Where are we told in the parable of the prodigal son, that either son was already saved?

I would love to see it...

Show where we are told in the parable he wasn't saved.

 

[Magenta]

Show where we are told in the parable he wasn't saved.

You made the claim... it is up to you to prove it is so. Plus, I never said they weren't.

Either you can show us the verse that says he was saved, or you can't.

I say you can't. You assume much and seem to expect others
to simply agree with your unfounded conclusions.

 

[Icedaisey]

You made the claim... it is up to you to prove it is so. Plus, I never said they weren't.

Either you can or you can't. I say you can't. You assume much and seem
to expect others to simply agree with your unfounded conclusions.

The only ones that think I expect them to agree with what they call unfounded conclusions appear to be those who don't already know the scriptures. Which is why they claim when I refer to the scriptures, that my conclusions are unfounded.

You gave evidence you aren't aware of the parable with your question: "Where are we told in the parable of the prodigal son, that either son was already saved?"

Now you think I'm making a claim and it's my duty to educate you who has no idea what I'm referring to in the first place.

I can't help you glean more understanding when you have no knowledge in the beginning.

 

[Magenta]

The only ones that think I expect them to agree with what they call unfounded conclusions appear to be those who don't already know the scriptures. Which is why they claim when I refer to the scriptures, that my conclusions are unfounded.

You gave evidence you aren't aware of the parable with your question: expand...Where are we told in the parable of the prodigal son, that either son was already saved?

Now you think I'm making a claim and it's my duty to educate you who has no idea what I'm referring to in the first place.

I can't help you glean more understanding when you have no knowledge in the beginning.

So you cannot give a verse that shows either son was already saved, just as I said. Thanks.

Your deflection devices are not working.

"... 'My son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’"

And again in 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

 

[FreeGrace2]

OSAS is a false teaching and foundation and a lack of understanding what the Bible states.

Jesus taught that those who believe have (as in possess) eternal life. John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said this: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Why don't you believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life?

If OSAS is true then God's kingdom is not true love but robotic love, and God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to disobey.

lol. This is funny. I'm no Calvinist, and not an Arminian, but Calvinists believe in OSAS. However, their entire theology is based on puppetry, and here you are claiming OSAS is puppetry.

Just go back and read John 5;24 and 10:28 until they both sink in.

If you program your computer to say I love you does your computer truly love you, and if you program your computer to say I hate you will you get mad and smash the computer.

What does any of this trivia have anything to do with God's plan of salvation?

God saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

 

[FreeGrace2]

1 Peter 1:9
James 1:21
Matthew 16:24-26
Matthew 10:39
John 12:25

The word "psuche" in Greek is translated mostly either "soul" or "life". My old NASB translated it "soul-life" I believe this to be the best translation. Adam became a living being when God breathed into him the breath of life. He was a spirit being, with a soul (the organ of expression) and a body. God's intent was that Adam should eat from the tree of life. We know the sad story.

We are told that sin has killed the human race. We are born dead in trespass and sin. So what died? It has to be the spirit. How did Adam continue to live? It was by the life of the soul that God gave him. This life is also called "the natural man". (1 Corinthians 2:14)

We are born again the moment that we believe and receive Christ. From that time on, we have a choice, much like Adam. Will we choose to live by the "tree of Life" (Lord Jesus, who is 'the Life') or from the natural life of the soul? God's intent is that we should choose life, not the knowledge of good and evil. Christians are prone to revert to the principle of good and evil because that's what we are used to. God will permit us to fail so that we see that the natural must defer to the spiritual. This is a lifetime work. I saw it like John the Baptist: "I must decrease and He (Jesus) must increase." If we persevere, we will experience the deliverance from self and sin that our born again spirit longs for. If we keep trying in our own strength, we will live a life of failure and defeat.

I agree with all you wrote. However, I didn't see "2 salvations".

It may be that your second salvation is really the present tense aspect of salvation, of which there are 3 tenses.

Past tense salvation: saved from the penalty of sin. The moment we believe. This is justification.
Present tense salvation: saved from the power of sin. This is our life on earth. This is sanctification, or spiritual growth.
Future tense salvation: saved from the presence of sin. This is in eternity. This is glorification.

All of this is part of our salvation. Only by understanding these 3 tenses can we fully understand and discern what is meant when we come to the word "salvation".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Magenta said:
Where are we told in the parable of the prodigal son, that either son was already saved?

I would love to see it...

Show where we are told in the parable he wasn't saved.

Rather than circular arguments, let's let the text do the explaining.

This is how the parable opens:
Luke 15:11 - Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons.

So, from the start we see a PERMANENT relationship. That of father and son. A relationship that cannot be undone.

Response from the father when he saw his idiot prodigal son returning:
20 - So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

This is the father's explanation for his own actions toward this prodigal:
24 - For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

He says "this son of mine". The relationship was intact. But fellowship was broken, lost, undone when the idiot left the father.

So the father was describing loss and death of fellowship in v. 24. But with fellowship restored, his son was "alive to him again".

The parable is about confession of sin and repentance which restores fellowship between father and son.

The prodigal was a son at the beginning of the parables, throughout the parable, and at the end of the parable.

He never lost his sonship. Once a son, always a son. Hm. OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Show where we are told in the parable he wasn't saved.

No we're not told that. Read it for yourself.

 

[Gideon300]

"Won"? He wasn't in a competition.
Jesus was The Word made flesh.
He was sent to deliver a new covenant that arrived by God's free irrevocable gift of grace through faith. And it is not our doing.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast" Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation and faith are of and from God.
Romans 11:5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.c

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

No, Lord Jesus was in a battle. You know, like in war. You win wars or you are defeated. Lord Jesus won. If you don't believe me, check out the definition in a dictionary.

 

[Icedaisey]

So you cannot give a verse that shows either son was already saved, just as I said. Thanks.

Your deflection devices are not working.

"... 'My son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’"

And again in 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

Prodigal, King James Bible Dictionary. PROD'IGAL, adjective [Latin produgus, from prodigo, to drive forth, to lavish.]. 1. Given to extravagant expenditures; expending money or other things without necessity; profuse, lavish; wasteful; not frugal or economical; as a prodigal man; the prodigal son.
What you miss in the parable is, "son".
Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

The prodigal parable is about backsliding and redemption. Leaving the father, while the father shall never leave us.

 

[Magenta]

No we're not told that. Read it for yourself.

Does calling the prodigal son previously "dead" and "lost" look like he was already saved?

I think not. Some obviously have very little understanding

 

[Magenta]

Prodigal, King James Bible Dictionary. PROD'IGAL, adjective [Latin produgus, from prodigo, to drive forth, to lavish.]. 1. Given to extravagant expenditures; expending money or other things without necessity; profuse, lavish; wasteful; not frugal or economical; as a prodigal man; the prodigal son.
What you miss in the parable is, "son".
Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

The prodigal parable is about backsliding and redemption. Leaving the father, while the father shall never leave us.

The man's son is not being called a son of God. You assume much, as I said

 

[Gideon300]

Actually the bible does say that those that believe can and sometimes do fall away or apostatize. We see this in the Psalms. Psa 101.3

In Gal 1:6 we see that the people are deserting {falling away from} faith in Christ Jesus and following another gospel. One of the clearest verses is 2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy G646 comes first,... {the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians}.
What must be understood is that you cannot fall away or apostatize form somewhere you have never been. You cannot fall away from faith if you never believed.

This is stated clearly in 1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,...

We are saved by by grace through faith because God loves us, and because God loves us He will not force anyone to come to Him or to stay with Him if they choose to leave.

Being born again means to have eternal life. Eternal means eternal. People might fall away for a time. Lord Jesus will restore them, one way or another.
A major problem is the number of pseudo Christians in the churches. Surveys suggest that only 4% of church attenders are born again. Billy Graham said he'd be delighted if 4% of the people who "made a decision" were in fact born again. So all those people were never saved in the first place.

People can profess to be Christian all they like. God is the one says who is and is not. I met an evangelist once who preached in churches. He was asked why he preached to Christians. He said it was the easiest way to get 300 unbelievers in one place. He was a Pentecostal.

 

[stonesoffire]

There’s a beginning and an ending of all things, true?

So, faith is the beginning and ending of our salvation. That is our work. All the stuff in between is His work, (Word) and our response to Him. Belief. Result.

It is just that simple.

 

[Magenta]

There’s a beginning and an ending of all things, true?

So, faith is the beginning and ending of our salvation. That is our work. All the stuff in between is His work, (Word) and our response to Him. Belief. Result.

It is just that simple.

So lovely to see you again