Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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This is just my personal view, but if eternal life is knowing God, and part of knowing Him is actually understanding what His attributes are and what that means concerning Him, we ought to really try to know who God is.
We all hold suppositions about God that simply aren't true. And because of that, we read scripture in a way that presents God differently than He really is. For example, most people think God is fair. But the scripture never claims that God is fair. It proclaims that He is just.
If God were indeed fair, He would have to provide for us all equally. It doesn't take long to see this isn't so. He is, however, just. And He will deal with each of us accordingly.
This is just one of many examples that I could give.
Eternal life is about knowing God. But life comes from truly knowing Him as He is and not how we think or wish He is.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
We all hold suppositions about God that simply aren't true. And because of that, we read scripture in a way that presents God differently than He really is. For example, most people think God is fair. But the scripture never claims that God is fair. It proclaims that He is just.
If God were indeed fair, He would have to provide for us all equally. It doesn't take long to see this isn't so. He is, however, just. And He will deal with each of us accordingly.
This is just one of many examples that I could give.
Eternal life is about knowing God. But life comes from truly knowing Him as He is and not how we think or wish He is.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
Respectfully Disagree, since The ETERNAL Relationship God 'Establishes', Because
Of The Precious BLOOD Of His SON, Is, In Biblical Fact, ETERNAL, As He Said, And
Confirms In Many Plain And Clear Passages! = CANNOT be 'broken!!' -ie:
God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ
+
God's Eternal Assurance
So, the "holding FIRM" of the gospel must then refer to part of HOW we
"MAINTAIN fellowship" with The LORD Jesus Christ! Amen? Now, this CAN
'Be broken' by disobedience = not being humble and submissive
(Rom 12:1-2), not "loving our neighbor" (Gal 5:14; Rom 13-8-10), and all
other "bad works" that are "not of faith."
These "grieve The Spirit," and IF continued, Finally "QUENCH The Spirit,"
resulting in possible EARLY "removal from earth," And Definitely
"loss of reward At Judgment!" - 1Co 3:8-15, Especially notice v. 15:
not "loss of salvation," agree?
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Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
Of The Precious BLOOD Of His SON, Is, In Biblical Fact, ETERNAL, As He Said, And
Confirms In Many Plain And Clear Passages! = CANNOT be 'broken!!' -ie:
God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ
+
God's Eternal Assurance
So, the "holding FIRM" of the gospel must then refer to part of HOW we
"MAINTAIN fellowship" with The LORD Jesus Christ! Amen? Now, this CAN
'Be broken' by disobedience = not being humble and submissive
(Rom 12:1-2), not "loving our neighbor" (Gal 5:14; Rom 13-8-10), and all
other "bad works" that are "not of faith."
These "grieve The Spirit," and IF continued, Finally "QUENCH The Spirit,"
resulting in possible EARLY "removal from earth," And Definitely
"loss of reward At Judgment!" - 1Co 3:8-15, Especially notice v. 15:
"...If any man's work shall be burned, he Shall Suffer Loss:
BUT he himself SHALL BE Saved; yet so as by fire."
not "loss of salvation," agree?
--------------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
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It's not possible for a person to throw away their "salvation"; they can only throw away their Savior. Without the Savior there is no salvation. This is the difference between what I believe and what the eternal security folks believe. They see salvation as something that happens to them which can never be undone. Once a butterfly exits the cocoon it can't be put back in. The way I see it, Christ came to live in my heart and I have a guarantee from the Holy Spirit of my inheritance to come; but I don't become a butterfly until after this life is over.
If I've heard it once I've heard it a million times: "You believe a person can lose their salvation. How many times a week do you lose your salvation and get born again again?" This is a strawman argument with no merit whatsoever. The implication being only those who believe in eternal security have true security. Yes, I believe it is possible for someone to reject their Savior and fall from grace. But I'm sorry to disappoint you, I'm very secure in my position with Him because I know in whom I have believed and haven't turned my back on Him.
If I've heard it once I've heard it a million times: "You believe a person can lose their salvation. How many times a week do you lose your salvation and get born again again?" This is a strawman argument with no merit whatsoever. The implication being only those who believe in eternal security have true security. Yes, I believe it is possible for someone to reject their Savior and fall from grace. But I'm sorry to disappoint you, I'm very secure in my position with Him because I know in whom I have believed and haven't turned my back on Him.
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I really don't think it's the same.
For example:
I don't have any position I know of that makes Christ giving false prophecy, but you're clinging to a very problematic interpretation of Matthew 19:28 in order to weaponize it against the security of our salvation.
So like one thing at a time, I think that subject should not be altogether dropped until it's resolved.
Do you really not see the problem with your view of it?
For example:
I don't have any position I know of that makes Christ giving false prophecy, but you're clinging to a very problematic interpretation of Matthew 19:28 in order to weaponize it against the security of our salvation.
So like one thing at a time, I think that subject should not be altogether dropped until it's resolved.
Do you really not see the problem with your view of it?
- You say Christ prophecies that Judas will inherit eternal life and sit on one of 12 thrones in the resurrection, judging Israel.
- You agree that Judas will not do any of these things
- Therefore you make Christ a false prophet
- Conclusion:
- Your position is wrong
- Jesus Christ, Who knows all things, is not talking about Judas
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Losing eternal life isn’t a false prophecy. The prophecy about Judas was that Jesus would lose him. One can’t lose someone unless they’re at first found/in possession of. That’s how the prophecy may be fulfilled.
John 17
12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
So now that you have been shown this, you don’t have anymore room for your false accusations against me.
You say Judas was always lost, but Jesus said that none has been lost aside from the one who was doomed. That’s the prophecy
So by your own standard of judgment, wouldn’t that be you who is making Christ a false prophet?
John 17
12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
So now that you have been shown this, you don’t have anymore room for your false accusations against me.
You say Judas was always lost, but Jesus said that none has been lost aside from the one who was doomed. That’s the prophecy
So by your own standard of judgment, wouldn’t that be you who is making Christ a false prophet?
No loss of salvation here. Just more accountable at the judgment for rejecting more knowledge.
In regards to once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..
Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these positive factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in Hebrews 10:26-39.
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (self moral reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.
*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
In regards to once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..
Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these positive factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in Hebrews 10:26-39.
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (self moral reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.
*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
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Yeah in other words if they fall into this group
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Hebrews 10:26-31 KJV
IF they
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
If they
“and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
Hebrews 5:9 KJV
i don’t think I’m the one with her issue with the word if lol
and on the other hand if they
“in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 KJV
on the other hand if they
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
And back to the other hand if
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
John 12:48 KJV
if they
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
you opened a can of worms
“If they “ provides a choice and pits the choice on the hearer showing them what to do and offering the reward of they believe and do we have a choice to make as Christian’s who already have believed
“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.”( Paul is discussing baptism )
Romans 6:16-17
“If “ goes both ways
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Hebrews 10:26-31 KJV
IF they
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
If they
“and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
Hebrews 5:9 KJV
i don’t think I’m the one with her issue with the word if lol
and on the other hand if they
“in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 KJV
on the other hand if they
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
And back to the other hand if
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
John 12:48 KJV
if they
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
you opened a can of worms
“If they “ provides a choice and pits the choice on the hearer showing them what to do and offering the reward of they believe and do we have a choice to make as Christian’s who already have believed
“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.”( Paul is discussing baptism )
Romans 6:16-17
“If “ goes both ways
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Dude how do you still not understand..
These are not false accusations as you say.
I quoted you saying these things, and you don't dispute them.
It is just the simple logic you don't get?
That by saying these things you are claiming Jesus spoke falsely?
See this is why no, we are not 'same'
- You claim Jesus prophesied Judas will have eternal life reigning on a throne in the resurrection.
- You claim this will not actually happen
- Therefore you are calling Jesus a false prophet
These are not false accusations as you say.
I quoted you saying these things, and you don't dispute them.
It is just the simple logic you don't get?
That by saying these things you are claiming Jesus spoke falsely?
See this is why no, we are not 'same'
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But you’re wrong. You’ve been held to your own standard of judgement and found guilty of calling Jesus a liar and a false prophet.
Your claims:
1. Judas was never saved
2. Judas was always lost
3. Salvation can’t be lost
4. Jesus is a liar if Judas lost salvation
5. Jesus is a false prophet of Judas didn’t get eternal life
So here’s the passage again:
John 17
12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
1. In Matthew 19, Peter asked a question and Jesus responded with saying there would be 12 thrones and those who followed him would have eternal life. That’s the 12 disciples, there’s no other group of 12 who followed Jesus in the gospels.
2. John 17 says that Judas was lost because he was doomed to destruction per prophecy.
Now, let’s reason together. I don’t actually think you would call Jesus a liar or call him a false prophet, but you don’t know as much as you seem to think you do and your pride and arrogance is getting in the way. Held to your own judgment, you would be guilty. Fortunately, I don’t judge anyone.
You’re saying things you might regret later.
What you’re not getting yet is that salvation/eternal life can be lost because there are conditions attached to those promises. Since you have resisted that so far, you’d rather explore the possibility of Jesus being a liar than admit you’re wrong. That isn’t a good place for you to be. Try reading the verses in my commentaries on Judas again, pray about it, and ask for wisdom. God bless.
Your claims:
1. Judas was never saved
2. Judas was always lost
3. Salvation can’t be lost
4. Jesus is a liar if Judas lost salvation
5. Jesus is a false prophet of Judas didn’t get eternal life
So here’s the passage again:
John 17
12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
1. In Matthew 19, Peter asked a question and Jesus responded with saying there would be 12 thrones and those who followed him would have eternal life. That’s the 12 disciples, there’s no other group of 12 who followed Jesus in the gospels.
2. John 17 says that Judas was lost because he was doomed to destruction per prophecy.
Now, let’s reason together. I don’t actually think you would call Jesus a liar or call him a false prophet, but you don’t know as much as you seem to think you do and your pride and arrogance is getting in the way. Held to your own judgment, you would be guilty. Fortunately, I don’t judge anyone.
You’re saying things you might regret later.
What you’re not getting yet is that salvation/eternal life can be lost because there are conditions attached to those promises. Since you have resisted that so far, you’d rather explore the possibility of Jesus being a liar than admit you’re wrong. That isn’t a good place for you to be. Try reading the verses in my commentaries on Judas again, pray about it, and ask for wisdom. God bless.
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There is nothing conditional about Matthew 19:28
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Either Jesus was wrong in what He said, or He does not mean Judas when He says "ye which have followed Me"
It is really very simple.
You choose to believe Jesus spoke falsely, and you seem to have no problem believing He did.
I do not.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Either Jesus was wrong in what He said, or He does not mean Judas when He says "ye which have followed Me"
It is really very simple.
You choose to believe Jesus spoke falsely, and you seem to have no problem believing He did.
I do not.
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sure ininderstand what you meant my point is the term if applies a lot more than that verse and it’s all true even the ifs
what you were getting at is trying to say this part
“for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”
Mark 13:22 KJV
your saying because he said “ if it were possible “ this erases what he’s saying but look at that whole section he’s telling them ahead of time what they are going to have to endure and hold on to faith and be saved
lets dissect this the “ great tribulation “ concept
We argue about is the church here during the tribulation ? Or are they magically taken away from the tribulation before it begins ?
thats a great Christian argument but if we just look at what scripture says about everything it’s not even a debate or argument the Bible establishes the whole concept of this great tribulation
Let’s just look at only scripture regarding this and see if it even leaves a question
so where do we find the whole concept of a great tribulation ? And what do we hear from Jesus about it ? And why is he saying it to believers ?
“for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ( because the elect are present in those days )
Then if any man shall say unto you, ( he’s addressing and earning them them because they will
Be present ) Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. ( he’s instructing them not to fall for the lies)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ( if they don’t heed Jesus words of warning it’s possible that’s why he’s warning those who believe in him )
Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. ( again he’s not saying “ I’m going to magically deliver you from all this “he’s preparing them to endure it and keep faith because he knows what was coming upon the earth after he went to heaven )
Matthew 24:21-26, 29-31,
( Eventually we get to the timing when he said he would gather his elect )
hearing a second witness of the same true gospel
“For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
And then if any man shall say to you, ( again he’s addressing them instructing and preparing them because they are going through it and he knows and is preparing them ahead of time ) Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. ( see how “If it were possible doesn’t change what he’s saying and why he’s saying it ?)
But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.( that’s how we won’t be deceived if we reject it we will be when false doctrines come to entice us )
( anyways the timing of him gathering those same elect he’s fore warning )
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:19-27 KJV
ive never understood why we don’t then Understand what Paul’s saying here and understand Paul’s not creating a new thing but further revealing the same thing
This is now Paul giving us more details of that day he gathers his elect those already in heaven having lived and died already in faith and also those still alive when Jesus returns to gs th r then from heaven and earth this is how Paul’s gift of revelation works it doesn’t create new things it reveals things Jesus said
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: ( this is the same coming hey all talk about same thing Jesus was saying now further revealed )
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: ( the angels are going to gather us like Jesus said would happen at his coming )
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:14, 16-17
the same moment the angels come to gather people at the last trumpet like Jesus said those still alive in the flesh will be translated to spiritual beings
We know the resurrection of the dead happens that same day so then we can see more
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 15:42, 44, 49-53, 58 KJV
If we start with what Jesus said the epistles become so valuable to understand it and learn the details but it’s Not until we start with what Jesus said like the foundation about everything that anything becomes clear and makes sense
what you were getting at is trying to say this part
“for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”
Mark 13:22 KJV
your saying because he said “ if it were possible “ this erases what he’s saying but look at that whole section he’s telling them ahead of time what they are going to have to endure and hold on to faith and be saved
lets dissect this the “ great tribulation “ concept
We argue about is the church here during the tribulation ? Or are they magically taken away from the tribulation before it begins ?
thats a great Christian argument but if we just look at what scripture says about everything it’s not even a debate or argument the Bible establishes the whole concept of this great tribulation
Let’s just look at only scripture regarding this and see if it even leaves a question
so where do we find the whole concept of a great tribulation ? And what do we hear from Jesus about it ? And why is he saying it to believers ?
“for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ( because the elect are present in those days )
Then if any man shall say unto you, ( he’s addressing and earning them them because they will
Be present ) Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. ( he’s instructing them not to fall for the lies)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ( if they don’t heed Jesus words of warning it’s possible that’s why he’s warning those who believe in him )
Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. ( again he’s not saying “ I’m going to magically deliver you from all this “he’s preparing them to endure it and keep faith because he knows what was coming upon the earth after he went to heaven )
Matthew 24:21-26, 29-31,
( Eventually we get to the timing when he said he would gather his elect )
hearing a second witness of the same true gospel
“For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
And then if any man shall say to you, ( again he’s addressing them instructing and preparing them because they are going through it and he knows and is preparing them ahead of time ) Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. ( see how “If it were possible doesn’t change what he’s saying and why he’s saying it ?)
But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.( that’s how we won’t be deceived if we reject it we will be when false doctrines come to entice us )
( anyways the timing of him gathering those same elect he’s fore warning )
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:19-27 KJV
ive never understood why we don’t then Understand what Paul’s saying here and understand Paul’s not creating a new thing but further revealing the same thing
This is now Paul giving us more details of that day he gathers his elect those already in heaven having lived and died already in faith and also those still alive when Jesus returns to gs th r then from heaven and earth this is how Paul’s gift of revelation works it doesn’t create new things it reveals things Jesus said
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: ( this is the same coming hey all talk about same thing Jesus was saying now further revealed )
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: ( the angels are going to gather us like Jesus said would happen at his coming )
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:14, 16-17
the same moment the angels come to gather people at the last trumpet like Jesus said those still alive in the flesh will be translated to spiritual beings
We know the resurrection of the dead happens that same day so then we can see more
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 15:42, 44, 49-53, 58 KJV
If we start with what Jesus said the epistles become so valuable to understand it and learn the details but it’s Not until we start with what Jesus said like the foundation about everything that anything becomes clear and makes sense
Hebrews 6:9-10
Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.
"Even though those things wouldn't apply to you regardless because you are genuine believers"
Those do not agree imo the assumption seems to render the scripture there senseless, if that was what you meant.
Are unbelievers in danger of being "burned"/going to hell?
And is the land in verse 7 (as opposed to the land in v8) in danger of being "burned"/going to hell?
So if folks that are still in the state of "repentance" in v6 are analogous to the land in verse 7, then are they in the same danger, and if not then are they unbelievers?
But let us assume it is not analogous (which I disagree with), and that "rain often falling" on them is not because they are believers.
It is clear in v7-8 that them being burned or not is based on their fruit which Matthew 7 indicates is perceivable, while belief in itself exists in your (in bold)
Romans 10:10
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
And it is clearly possible for someone who has been made alive with Christ to do this
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?
Is that rendering corrupt fruit or not?
Romans 6:12
So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
questions about sin not being their master?
To end where we started, why was he convinced of these things?
Hebrews 6:9-10
Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.
Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.
"Even though those things wouldn't apply to you regardless because you are genuine believers"
Those do not agree imo the assumption seems to render the scripture there senseless, if that was what you meant.
Are unbelievers in danger of being "burned"/going to hell?
And is the land in verse 7 (as opposed to the land in v8) in danger of being "burned"/going to hell?
So if folks that are still in the state of "repentance" in v6 are analogous to the land in verse 7, then are they in the same danger, and if not then are they unbelievers?
But let us assume it is not analogous (which I disagree with), and that "rain often falling" on them is not because they are believers.
It is clear in v7-8 that them being burned or not is based on their fruit which Matthew 7 indicates is perceivable, while belief in itself exists in your (in bold)
Romans 10:10
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
And it is clearly possible for someone who has been made alive with Christ to do this
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?
Is that rendering corrupt fruit or not?
Romans 6:12
So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
questions about sin not being their master?
To end where we started, why was he convinced of these things?
Hebrews 6:9-10
Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ed-osas-debunked.201128/page-131#post-4998205
The first two questions there don't seem to have gotten resolved (at least not in favor of osas), I apologize if I missed where they did.
The first two questions there don't seem to have gotten resolved (at least not in favor of osas), I apologize if I missed where they did.