Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[BreatheFocusBet]

I think that is the key passage. Recognition of and faith in a completed act.

to clarify the bold, enlarged part (albeit inductively)

One who sins is a

John 8:34 Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

From which through [a real] baptism you can, praise Jesus Christ, become

Romans 6:7 For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Similar to how

Romans 7:2 For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.

This is because sin works through, and you can become freed from (in bold)

Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.

Which means sin is not

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Like a

Romans 7:2 For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.

And not that you cannot, for example,

Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires.

which if you do, the outcome is

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

even if you have become (in bold)

Romans 6:11 So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

if that is what you are implying

 

[BillG]

Who was Jesus speaking to and who are the 12 thrones for? Who is the “we” and “us” Peter referred to? Doesn’t say the 12 apostles get the 12 throne so is it some other unnamed apostles who get the 12 thrones?

You tell me.

Where did Jesus say that Judas was saved or was saved?
After all did you say that?

 

[cv5]

Really sorry but cannot see in Matthew 19 where Jesus told the 12 Apostles they would inherit eternal life and have a throne.

Peter said "We have followed you"

It does not say Judas was saved have eternal life.

After all why would Jesus say that to a man who knew was a devil?

John 6:70
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

A devil was never saved to begin with.

Was not Judas part of the equation?

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Judas does not sit on the 12th throne

How RM could possibly fail to see the obvious fact that Jesus explicity (on multiple occasions) EXCLUDED Judas from among the otherwise saved 12 simply beggars the imagination.

Which is why he is back on ignore.

 

[Blade]

Hmm about Judas. "he was filled with remorse" "deep regret or guilt for a wrong committed." I know Christ said "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.” Who was He talking to and what did "your" mean? Not here debating Judas was saved or lost. We do tend to cherry pick verses and then say what they really mean. As in doomed for destruction. To me seems like his life on earth. Then lost.. its clear he was not one of the 12 any more. Since this is being talked about in OSAS. I am only guessing but this for them really proves you can lose your salvation. A greater sin.. you can lose your salvation but lying saying 3 times you don't know Christ.. pfft that's nothing nope rejoice your still saved. God seemed to want us to know Judas was filled with remorse.

Some don't read what they post. Well if Judas really didn't know Christ and known tasted of the powers of the age to come.. yet he was lost forever? Then feeling deep regret or guilt for a wrong he committed....sorry GOD does not care. Let me guess YOU if you goof up lie cheat steal kill do harm break the commandments.....yet feel deep regret or guilt for that wrong you committed..... wow praise GOD your still in! Wait.. maybe that's not enough. Maybe you HAVE to use the word "repent" and say Jesus I am.. wait.. no no you just get the right name Yeshua I am sorry. Seems a thief whos life we truly don't know about just said ...a this man should be here we should.. Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.

Something like this.. no matter how much I would ask God about.. I would hear "its none of your business Should you not be about your Fathers business?". If the word told us he was lost forever no salvation we would not be here chatting about him. Its just verses where some tell us "what that really means what it was really saying". Knowing Scholars still debate this. Its not my creation. Easy to talk about lost forever when its not your baby or wife or husband. Oh no then we lead on .. I really believe they were saved! Were talking about someone a GOD made.. I don't know.. nor will He tell me so.. I go on

 

[Runningman]

You tell me.

Where did Jesus say that Judas was saved or was saved?
After all did you say that?

Then none of the 12 apostles were saved? Where did Jesus say to any of them “you have eternal life now?” I think it requires a bit of a willful blind eye to not conclude that when Jesus referenced the 12 he was referring to his innermost circle of the names 12 apostles, Judas included.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Let me guess YOU if you goof up lie cheat steal kill do harm break the commandments.....yet feel deep regret or guilt for that wrong you committed..... wow praise GOD your still in! Wait.. maybe that's not enough.

Feeling bad actually isn't enough. You have to believe that God will forgive you, and it seems apparent to me that he didn't; otherwise he wouldn't have hanged himself.

 

[posthuman]

Who was Jesus speaking to and who are the 12 thrones for? Who is the “we” and “us” Peter referred to? Doesn’t say the 12 apostles get the 12 throne so is it some other unnamed apostles who get the 12 thrones?

Matthew 19:29-30
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Who is the first who will be last?
And did Judas truly leave anything for the sake of Christ's name?

Keeping in mind that John 6:64 specifies that Christ has known from the beginning that Judas did not believe, but would deliver Him to be murdered, as though it were possible that anyone could take His life.

 

[cv5]

Judas included.

Judas EXCLUDED. Obviously.

 

[posthuman]

Feeling bad actually isn't enough. You have to believe that God will forgive you, and it seems apparent to me that he didn't; otherwise he wouldn't have hanged himself.

Satan entered Judas. Of no one else in scripture is that ever said.
At what point - if at all - did Satan leave him?

 

[Runningman]

If the word told us he was lost forever no salvation we would not be here chatting about him. Its just verses where some tell us "what that really means what it was really saying". Knowing Scholars still debate this. Its not my creation. Easy to talk about lost forever when its not your baby or wife or husband. Oh no then we lead on .. I really believe they were saved! Were talking about someone a GOD made.. I don't know.. nor will He tell me so.. I go on

Good point. Teachings about Judas will vary depending on foundational knowledge of the Bible. It’s kinda like when the only tool you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail. If people want OSAS to be true, they’ll find a way to make it so.

Jesus said that there would be 12 thrones for those who followed him and the inheritance of eternal life. In the gospel, the 12 are the 12 named apostles. Who else would it be? Wait a minute, they weren’t each named by name when Jesus referred to the 12 so now suddenly they argue that they don’t know who Jesus was referring to.

What’s at stake is they have it all wrong and the convenient escape route of denial at least enables them to hold on to their beliefs a little longer.

Is turning a willful blind eye to reason honoring God? It doesn’t. I fear for them, truly. I know that prayer is the only way to reach some people, but how can we make sure God gets the glory?

 

[Runningman]

Satan entered Judas. Of no one else in scripture is that ever said.
At what point - if at all - did Satan leave him?

Satan entered Peter as well. Why do you think Jesus turned to Peter and rebuked Satan? He wasn’t really speaking to Peter, but to the literal devil in Peter at that moment. Uh oh, Houston we have a problem. How could it be that Jesus addressed Satan when speaking to Peter when Peter was supposed to be saved?

Matthew 16
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

 

[cv5]

Hmm about Judas. "he was filled with remorse" "deep regret or guilt for a wrong committed." I know Christ said "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.” Who was He talking to and what did "your" mean? Not here debating Judas was saved or lost. We do tend to cherry pick verses and then say what they really mean. As in doomed for destruction. To me seems like his life on earth. Then lost.. its clear he was not one of the 12 any more. Since this is being talked about in OSAS. I am only guessing but this for them really proves you can lose your salvation. A greater sin.. you can lose your salvation but lying saying 3 times you don't know Christ.. pfft that's nothing nope rejoice your still saved. God seemed to want us to know Judas was filled with remorse.

Some don't read what they post. Well if Judas really didn't know Christ and known tasted of the powers of the age to come.. yet he was lost forever? Then feeling deep regret or guilt for a wrong he committed....sorry GOD does not care. Let me guess YOU if you goof up lie cheat steal kill do harm break the commandments.....yet feel deep regret or guilt for that wrong you committed..... wow praise GOD your still in! Wait.. maybe that's not enough. Maybe you HAVE to use the word "repent" and say Jesus I am.. wait.. no no you just get the right name Yeshua I am sorry. Seems a thief whos life we truly don't know about just said ...a this man should be here we should.. Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.

Something like this.. no matter how much I would ask God about.. I would hear "its none of your business Should you not be about your Fathers business?". If the word told us he was lost forever no salvation we would not be here chatting about him. Its just verses where some tell us "what that really means what it was really saying". Knowing Scholars still debate this. Its not my creation. Easy to talk about lost forever when its not your baby or wife or husband. Oh no then we lead on .. I really believe they were saved! Were talking about someone a GOD made.. I don't know.. nor will He tell me so.. I go on

Judas is a type of willfully unrepentant sinner whom Jesus sincerely loves with open arms of fellowship, ready to forgive, to the bitter end. The Holy One of God is blameless.

 

[Runningman]

Judas is a type of willfully unrepentant sinner

Not according to scripture. Judas repented for betraying innocent blood.

Matthew 27
3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4“I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

 

[wattie]

No you're wrong.

John 10:26 isn't written to Judas. Don't you think Jesus would have tried to save Judas if one of his closest followers was an unbeliever? Yet Jesus never called Judas an unbeliever. That's because Judas was a believer and the New Testament proves it.

Judas had Satan enter him.

A saved person has the Holy Spirit in them. Satan cannot co-habitate with the Holy Spirit.

Unless it is a kind if figurative entering..but that doesn't sit with Jesus calling him a devil.

Judas did have the bag as a treasurer type, so seems to be counted with the disciples..but his case is the exception rather than the rule.

He really wasn't of them as a believer.. but more of someone who could be a believer but failed in believing on Jesus.

Like some one bought into a church .. given a role with intention they will be a believer, but never take the step.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Satan entered Judas. Of no one else in scripture is that ever said.
At what point - if at all - did Satan leave him?

Probably when he died; why do you ask?

 

[HeIsHere]

Judas had Satan enter him.

A saved person has the Holy Spirit in them. Satan cannot co-habitate with the Holy Spirit.

Unless it is a kind if figurative entering..but that doesn't sit with Jesus calling him a devil.

Judas did have the bag as a treasurer type, so seems to be counted with the disciples..but his case is the exception rather than the rule.

He really wasn't of them as a believer.. but more of someone who could be a believer but failed in believing on Jesus.

Like some one bought into a church .. given a role with intention they will be a believer, but never take the step.

So people were born again before Jesus completed the act of atonement?

 

[cv5]

So people were born again before Jesus completed the act of atonement?

That is exactly what the Bible says of the elect. Hope you can wrap your head around it.

 

[cv5]

edit

As far as God is concerned....."that is exactly what the Bible says of the elect. Hope you can wrap your head around it."

 

[posthuman]

If people want OSAS to be true, they’ll find a way to make it so.

Jesus said that there would be 12 thrones for those who followed him and the inheritance of eternal life. In the gospel, the 12 are the 12 named apostles. Who else would it be? Wait a minute, they weren’t each named by name when Jesus referred to the 12 so now suddenly they argue that they don’t know who Jesus was referring to.

Do you not find it ironic that by saying this scripture must mean Judas is one of the 12 who will sit on 12 thrones with Christ, you are either saying Judas is OSAS or that Christ was mistaken about him, therefore fallible, untrustworthy & a liar?

 

[posthuman]

Probably when he died; why do you ask?

The inference then would be that it was Satan who kissed Christ, whom Christ called 'friend' and who was knocked to the ground when He said "I AM" in the garden
And Satan who, fulfilling prophecy, threw the silver back.
And Satan who caused Judas to hang himself in the flesh - which puts a certain light on the motivation of his remorse, which would also be Satan's remorse.

I do not think that Gethsemane went the way Satan/Judas expected it to go.