Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[ThewindBlows]

I was more just trying to agree with you but I know, sometimes my words get convoluted. Kind of a "stream of consciousness" thing, which if you aren't in my head, you may not catch.

And if you ARE in my head, remember, keep your hands and feet inside the car at all times, and don't, whatever you do, don't listen to the Voices!

Much love!

I thought so but when its just one scripture its like a little child "yes" I Agree cant say it any better or disagree its bang on lol

Nice to see you here, you have tought me some things over the years, like patience

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Rom 2:7 is another good passage on Persistence/Perseverance/"Patient Continuance" as one translation renders it: "7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

Then there is the Lord Himself in Mat 24:13: "But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved."

And 1 Tim 4:16 is difficult to interpret in any other manner: "16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

Among several other passages. God Bless.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

It is simple:

By the Grace of God, we believe.
By the Grace of God, we persevere.

By our own fault, we can refuse to believe.
By our own fault we can fail to persevere.

God Bless.

 

[Runningman]

Very eye-opening discussion. I’m glad I came to this thread. These rowdy triple-digit threads I typically avoid, but here deep down in the depths of the discussion is where the real gems are found.

 

[Beckie]

Again, in slightly different form,which of those passages mention Judas by name?The Scriptures tell us Jesus gave them the power, they do not tell us how, if, when, etc, each one used the power .

 

[Runningman]

I understand you want to sow seeds of doubt in the word, but that won't be happening.

It follows that since they were disciples of Jesus and He was their shepherd that when He gave them directions they followed them. There's no counternarrative to this to support your skepticism. There's nothing to the effect of "But when Jesus gave a command His disciples disobeyed Him."

Here's another example:

John 4
1When Jesus realized that the Pharisees were aware He was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although it was not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples),

It follows that since it says His disciples were the ones baptizing, and there were 12, then they were all baptizing people, including Judas, since there so many people to baptize. What, you thought Judas was just sitting around with his hands in his pockets doing nothing? Doesn't exist in scripture and scripture doesn't typically name each person when there are a lot of people to name.

 

[Magenta]

Even if Judas baptized multitudes, it does not prove he was ever saved.

You dare reject the words of Jesus? That's your choice.

That's what you do

 

[Runningman]

There comes a point where one experiences something enough that it finally clicks and they understand. I need to be extra squeaky clean around this forum. What I mean is, when people go low and accuse me, say false things about me, and verbally attack me I can't retaliate and must maintain the high ground.

If I stoop to their level, they'll, in return, attempt to turn it back on me and escalate it, step by step, much like what I am witnessing above. So go ahead and have your drama. All along that must have been their plan, but I'll continue sticking to the Bible.

This is wisdom being gained before your very eyes.

 

[Magenta]

There comes a point where one experiences something enough that it finally clicks and they understand. I need to be extra squeaky clean around this forum. What I mean is, when people go low and accuse me, say false things about me, and verbally attack me I can't retaliate and must maintain the high ground

If I stoop to their level, they'll, in return, attempt to turn it back on me and escalate it, step by step, much like what I am witnessing above. So go ahead and have your drama. I'll just stick with the Bible.

This is wisdom being gained before your very eyes.

I've seen your boasting before... And denying the very words of Jesus. Not only
that, but claiming Jesus said things He did not, and refusing to admit it. As well
as saying that Scriptures do not say people are born lost. Presumably you wish
to deny that too and call me names for pointing your errors out to you
While you pretend you stick to the Bible And pretend you don't stoop

 

[Magenta]

Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people
of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him
their attention and exclaimed, “This man is rightly called the Great Power of God.” They followed him
because he had amazed them for a long time with his sorcery. But when they believed Philip as he
proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized,
both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere,
astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter
and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might
receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had
simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands
on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money
and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God
with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having
such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.” Acts 8:9-23

Neither did Judas have a heart that was right before God. He was unclean, and captive to sin.

 

[Runningman]

I've seen your boasting before... And denying the very words of Jesus. Not only
that, but claiming Jesus said things He did not, and refusing to admit it. As well
as saying that Scriptures do not say people are born lost. Presumably you wish
to deny that too and call me names for pointing your errors out to you
While you pretend you stick to the Bible And pretend you don't stoop

That's all false from my perspective and I would never do any such things intentionally. I think that's most likely your attempt to create a diversion because I built a solid, plausible, case that Judas was a believer by quoting authoritative scripture.

If we stack up the evidences, it turns out there is more evidence Judas was a believer, even receiving the words "..will inherit eternal life" as Jesus spoke to the 12.

Additionally, Judas was called a disciple of Jesus. A disciple is a learner, a pupil, hence why Judas called Jesus Rabbi. Jesus confirmed that He is, in fact, a Teacher, because a Rabbi is a teacher. Judas was correct for doing so.

Matthew 23
8“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah.

 

[Runningman]

Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people
of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him
their attention and exclaimed, “This man is rightly called the Great Power of God.” They followed him
because he had amazed them for a long time with his sorcery. But when they believed Philip as he
proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized,
both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere,
astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter
and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might
receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had
simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands
on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money
and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God
with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having
such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.” Acts 8:9-23

Neither did Judas have a heart that was right before God. He was unclean, and captive to sin.

Acts 8:9-23 doesn't apply to Judas. It applies to Simon the Sorcerer. That's called a false equivalence.

Judas was a disciple of Jesus and was given power to cast out demons and heal the sick and they (the 12 disciples) did that through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Simon the Sorcerer was of the occult and thought he could purchase the Holy Spirit. Judas never did that.

 

[brighthouse98]

Peter talked about this the best, this can be found in 2 Peter 1:1-11 Please notice YOUR Faith, not Jesus's faith, for faith depends upon the person and then the action of one's faith. (James 1:22) Notice verse 8 in 2 Peter as well as verse 9 YOU'RE Faith Not God's. For if Jesus needed faith for us, that would mean Jesus is unknowing of one's fate in life, but Jesus already knows and needs no faith for any of us. So, then we must do the believing, all else has been taken care of by our Dear Lord Jesus. Faith takes the place of knowledge, for faith is the substance of things hope for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN. Just common sense to me brothers and sisters. Please read this for yourself and decide.

 

[Magenta]

Acts 8:9-23 doesn't apply to Judas. It applies to Simon the Sorcerer. That's called a false equivalence.

Judas was a disciple of Jesus and was given power to cast out demons and heal the sick and they (the 12 disciples) did that through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Simon the Sorcerer was of the occult and thought he could purchase the Holy Spirit. Judas never did that.

No different than people doing works in Jesus' name whom Jesus later claims not to know.

Though you say since Jesus knew Judas, it does not apply to him.

What you use as your proof texts is highly suspect.

And for the record, nobody is born in a born again state.

You really ought to get that straight

I built a solid, plausible, case that Judas was a believer by quoting authoritative scripture

You did no such thing. What you did was ignore the words of Jesus.

 

[Magenta]

That's all false from my perspective and I would never do any such things intentionally.

More of your falsehoods.

People are born lost.

Not according to scripture.

According to Scripture, people need to be born again. Until then, they are a natural man, just as
they were born. But according to you, Scripture teaches something different. You are in denial.

 

[Runningman]

No different than people doing works in Jesus' name whom Jesus later claims not to know.

Simon didn't do do anything in the name of Jesus, Judas did.

Though you say since Jesus knew Judas, it does not apply to him.

What you use as your proof texts is highly suspect.

Jesus told Judas he would inherit eternal life. I have posted that repeatedly. That isn't highly suspect.

And for the record, nobody is born in a born again state.

I never claimed any such thing. I said people aren't born lost according to scripture. When I say something I will stand beside it until shown otherwise and I can prove that children aren't born on a highway to hell. There's a difference between not being born under condemnation and being born again.

You really ought to get that straight

No I'll stick with the Bible, thanks anyway.

You did no such thing. What you did was ignore the words of Jesus.

Most of the verses I quoted were Jesus quotes. Jesus gave the 12 authority to heal and Jesus also said that only those who believe (in Him of course) can heal. Paul said healing is a gift of the Holy Spirit. This applies to Judas. Your options are Judas was OSAS or he lost his salvation.

 

[Magenta]

I can't retaliate and must maintain the high ground.

I hope that means you will stop saying things like this:

But you’re the ignorant one. That’s been proven conclusively beyond a shadow of
a doubt. I was the one responding with Bible verses, swatting down false doctrines.

What are you even talking about? You live in a fantasy world. Pathetic. You’ve learned nothing after numerous threads of
being dominated. Are you a glutton for being debunked? Seriously, idk why you keep responding to my posts otherwise.

 

[Runningman]

More of your falsehoods.

If you're right you have a case. If you're wrong, then you're a liar. That's why you shouldn't be so arrogant as to think you can discern my intentions. Clearly you're off base. God is my witness.

According to Scripture, people need to be born again. Until then, they are a natural man, just as
they were born. But according to you, Scripture teaches something different. You are in denial.

People are condemned...because... they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. "Because." Children cant understand the gospel until a certain age. That means people are not born under condemnation and therefore aren't born lost. Do you need more scripture?

John 3:18
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Runningman]

I hope that means you will stop saying things like this:

It felt like sport with FG2 in the moment, but I can see how taken out of context you might use that to slander my character. I don't think FG2 was offended and if he was then I'll apologize to him here per chance he ever sees this.

 

[soberxp]

I don't see what problem you're talking about..
When a child is born, there is nothing wrong with it, but the child is born in an environment of disobedience, so we need to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and become new made in Christ, a person who is obedient to God's Word, and as for born-again, that is something in the future, but it is also a hope and promise for now, like eternal life, which God promised, but it is not given right now.