Oh goody another OSAS thread!
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N
i believe most of you "anti-gracers" will find you are revolving door salvationists and what you push is some "saved by the power of God only to end up in hell" doctrine of men
i personally believe this has been going on and perverting the gospel for quite some time now... but when Christ comes back this will be done away with
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You want to talk about whether God chooses His sheep or if men choose to be sheep I'd recommend going to the Calvinism vs. Arminianism thread. THIS thread is about OSAS, about whether once somebody is a sheep they can turn into a goat!. Jesus speaks in many passages about not losing a SINGLE sheep. Here is just one occasion:
Matthew 18: 12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
The POINT is you deceptively switched to a different passage than the verse originally posted without even notating it to try and fit your erroneous doctrine while simultaneously slandering me.
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R
First of all, salvation is NOT a revolving door. Once you lose it, it's gone. You can't get it back. God won't allow it.
And secondly, saying grace is not a license to sin is hardly being anti-grace. In fact, grace was given us to NOT sin, not to live in it in unbelief and still be saved.
It's only perverted in how you insist on hearing the argument. Part of being indoctrinated is not being able to understand the argument properly the way it is being presented, but instead only being able to hear it for what you have been told it means.
Now, to keep you from running to the protection of the 'once saved always saved' argument that suits the moment, which are you, traditional 'once saved always saved', or new Hypergrace 'once saved always saved'?
And secondly, saying grace is not a license to sin is hardly being anti-grace. In fact, grace was given us to NOT sin, not to live in it in unbelief and still be saved.
It's only perverted in how you insist on hearing the argument. Part of being indoctrinated is not being able to understand the argument properly the way it is being presented, but instead only being able to hear it for what you have been told it means.
Now, to keep you from running to the protection of the 'once saved always saved' argument that suits the moment, which are you, traditional 'once saved always saved', or new Hypergrace 'once saved always saved'?
N
first of all you cant lose it.... being saved <- means you are also saved from a just punishment
if you end up suffering this just punishment > never saved
secondly i agree that grace is not a license to sin
God wouldnt chasten His children if it was
now casting us out even though He promised He wouldnt is a different story
oooo the rest of what you said is too drenched in emotion and nonsense to respond to
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It's really anti-Christ, anti-God, anti-grace, isn't it?
Jesus purpose on earth was to bring the new covenant from the Father to the worlds people. No more animal blood to cover sins and transgressions committed against the written law of three parts that is and was impossible to obey entirely and be in grace.
Instead, the perfect sinless unblemished lamb that appeared as God among us shed his blood on that last sin altar. Thus freeing animals from butchering. And human sinners from damnation.
And all they have to do is believe. And all that is accomplished because they hear that good news and hearken to its call to repent and enter that grace of God, given by God, as a free irrevocable gift. Being immersed in water later so as to be baptized, washed clean of their former self that was the walking dead in their sin. And then being raised from those cleansing fluids as if reborn again like unto when they were newborn and innocent. Washed clean of that former sinner self that was washed away and left dead in that tomb of encapsulating waters. Because they raised up as Jesus did from the dead. A new creation, a glorified creation, as was Christ.
The old has passed away. Behold the new has come.
Now they are not alone. Because they were indwelt by God's holy spirit the moment they believed. Because God knows who receives his calling sincerely. And now, as it takes time to walk in that grace just as it takes time for a baby to learn how to walk rather than crawl, that new creation navigates a fallen world. And how they do that rightly, righteously, is to trust step by step and slowly grow into letting that inner comforter guide their life through its wisdom.
It's weird but as God foresaw. That a people would arrive on earth in the midst of Jesus' salvation teaching and claim they believe in God. They believe in Jesus. They believe in Salvation. But they don't believe God's guarantee that it lasts forever!
Nor did those disciples that walked away from Christ and his number. They , as Jesus observed, were not one of his number.
For Salvation not to be what God said it was and Jesus died to seal for all time, God would have to be a liar. For man to think they have to assist God to keep the free gift afforded them by his grace means they don't believe God is sovereign.
In this 21st century followers are still reenacting 1 John 2. They're going out from those number following Christ. Because they are not one with us.
Remember, Jesus said his sheep know his voice and he knows them. And we follow him. Anti-Salvation teachings decree what Jesus didn't know is that some of us would think what he did on the cross wasn't enough. That he isn't sovereign and we need to help him to keep his gift.
He bled to bestow that gift. Because before the cross He knew we were incapable of helping, saving, ourselves.
People that don't think they'e eternally saved don't feel worthy. Can we as mere mortals citing the eternal sovereign God's truth talk them out of that? When Jesus words couldn't talk them into letting go and having faith they are eternally saved?
No.
And all those threads that tally page after page after page on most every Christian forum on the Net no doubt don't mean a thing.
It takes up space and wastes bandwidth repeating the same argument and counter.
I think we who are in Christ need to stop and realize one absolute eternal fact. All those Internet pages are meaningless. We will all stand before God and give account of who we were when we first believed we were in Christ.
Including those who think Christ didn't do enough. And God's calling and free gift was not irrevocable as he claimed.
God has the final word over those who deny his word really means what The Word said it does.
Jesus purpose on earth was to bring the new covenant from the Father to the worlds people. No more animal blood to cover sins and transgressions committed against the written law of three parts that is and was impossible to obey entirely and be in grace.
Instead, the perfect sinless unblemished lamb that appeared as God among us shed his blood on that last sin altar. Thus freeing animals from butchering. And human sinners from damnation.
And all they have to do is believe. And all that is accomplished because they hear that good news and hearken to its call to repent and enter that grace of God, given by God, as a free irrevocable gift. Being immersed in water later so as to be baptized, washed clean of their former self that was the walking dead in their sin. And then being raised from those cleansing fluids as if reborn again like unto when they were newborn and innocent. Washed clean of that former sinner self that was washed away and left dead in that tomb of encapsulating waters. Because they raised up as Jesus did from the dead. A new creation, a glorified creation, as was Christ.
The old has passed away. Behold the new has come.
Now they are not alone. Because they were indwelt by God's holy spirit the moment they believed. Because God knows who receives his calling sincerely. And now, as it takes time to walk in that grace just as it takes time for a baby to learn how to walk rather than crawl, that new creation navigates a fallen world. And how they do that rightly, righteously, is to trust step by step and slowly grow into letting that inner comforter guide their life through its wisdom.
It's weird but as God foresaw. That a people would arrive on earth in the midst of Jesus' salvation teaching and claim they believe in God. They believe in Jesus. They believe in Salvation. But they don't believe God's guarantee that it lasts forever!
Nor did those disciples that walked away from Christ and his number. They , as Jesus observed, were not one of his number.
For Salvation not to be what God said it was and Jesus died to seal for all time, God would have to be a liar. For man to think they have to assist God to keep the free gift afforded them by his grace means they don't believe God is sovereign.
In this 21st century followers are still reenacting 1 John 2. They're going out from those number following Christ. Because they are not one with us.
Remember, Jesus said his sheep know his voice and he knows them. And we follow him. Anti-Salvation teachings decree what Jesus didn't know is that some of us would think what he did on the cross wasn't enough. That he isn't sovereign and we need to help him to keep his gift.
He bled to bestow that gift. Because before the cross He knew we were incapable of helping, saving, ourselves.
People that don't think they'e eternally saved don't feel worthy. Can we as mere mortals citing the eternal sovereign God's truth talk them out of that? When Jesus words couldn't talk them into letting go and having faith they are eternally saved?
No.
And all those threads that tally page after page after page on most every Christian forum on the Net no doubt don't mean a thing.
It takes up space and wastes bandwidth repeating the same argument and counter.
I think we who are in Christ need to stop and realize one absolute eternal fact. All those Internet pages are meaningless. We will all stand before God and give account of who we were when we first believed we were in Christ.
Including those who think Christ didn't do enough. And God's calling and free gift was not irrevocable as he claimed.
God has the final word over those who deny his word really means what The Word said it does.
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You are without grace. What a terrible shame you don't know how to formulate a post so as to be understood. But that really isn't your purpose is it. Because you're so quick to act like the devil after your own mistake. And thank you for actually proving I had nothing to apologize for in my initial observation of your demeanor here.
Sad to know. Don't speak to me again. I shall not be reading.
Sad to know. Don't speak to me again. I shall not be reading.
R
You tell me. You're the one who says the person who leaves was never saved to begin with:
"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. "-1 John 2:19
So how can the Prodigal Son be proof that 'once you are saved and are a son you will always saved and always a son'? You're going to have to decide if real believers can leave and still be saved, or whether real believers will never leave. You can't have it both ways.
You are either traditional 'once saved always saved' (real believers never leave), or you are new Hypergrace 'once saved always saved' (believers can leave and will stay saved). As I say, I think most of you people will see that you are of the new Hypergrace 'once saved always saved' variety. That is the doctrine that is overtaking the church at this present time.
"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. "-1 John 2:19
So how can the Prodigal Son be proof that 'once you are saved and are a son you will always saved and always a son'? You're going to have to decide if real believers can leave and still be saved, or whether real believers will never leave. You can't have it both ways.
You are either traditional 'once saved always saved' (real believers never leave), or you are new Hypergrace 'once saved always saved' (believers can leave and will stay saved). As I say, I think most of you people will see that you are of the new Hypergrace 'once saved always saved' variety. That is the doctrine that is overtaking the church at this present time.
N
you want me to tell you?
suuuure
ill help ya out
the son was always a son
but in his selfishness faced many trials on account of his foolish actions
but when the time came... he knew who he needed to depend on (never at any point "no longer a son")
those who go out from us in the separate verse you posted
were never sons
(go out from us as in deny the truth... never had the truth or no doubt would have continued in the truth)
son=sheep
those who were not of us = goat
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Losing one's salvation is NEW AGE RELIGION.
This nonsense was not promoted by Christ or the apostles. If a human being must maintain his salvation, then that would be a pathetic salvation indeed. A man-made salvation. So get down to some serious study about the perfect finished work of Christ and how it applies to the children of God.
This nonsense was not promoted by Christ or the apostles. If a human being must maintain his salvation, then that would be a pathetic salvation indeed. A man-made salvation. So get down to some serious study about the perfect finished work of Christ and how it applies to the children of God.
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N
lol you can use as many man made terms as youd like to try and disprove Gods promises
no long winded discussion needed
john 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
galatians 3
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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That's not necessarily the case. People who leave the faith were never saved in the first place.
The parable of the Prodigal Son is a great teaching point on that issue.
The older brother is that profile of that which argues we must labor and strive to stay saved. As Jesus related the parable in his day that older brother was the scribes and Pharisee.
“Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing. “And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be. “And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.’ “But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him. “But he answered and said to his father, ‘Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends; but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.’ “And he said to him, ‘Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. ‘But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'” Luke 15:25-32
The Christian that is truly saved and indwelt is able to backslide. We're redeemed, we're not perfect. Some can lose faith because God brings so many challenges to them that they find them insurmountable. And yet, while we may leave Jesus , Jesus promised he would never ever leave us nor forsake us. When he knew who would be that sheep who knew Jesus' voice , Jesus would also know when that sheep would go astray. He had a parable to describe that as well. Remember? Matthew 18:12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?
The God of the old testament, testimony, is the God of the new. We are always comforted in the scriptures from cover to cover.
Psalm 55:22 Cast your burden on the Lord, and he will sustain you; he will never permit the righteous to be moved.
We're told that Heaven rejoices when a lost soul is saved. Think how there is celebration when one who backslides finds their way back to the Father. And they do that because the Father has always been with them. He celebrates and rejoices because when God knew the name of his elect, those for whom his calling would resonate as truth, before the creation of this world, he certainly knew all the steps we would take as his elect. Even when we wander from the road.
Jesus said no man shall take us from his hand. No one. That means we can't even choose to jump without Jesus catching us up.
God doesn't waste his breath calling those his omniscience knows prefer the world to eternal salvation.
The parable of the Prodigal Son is a great teaching point on that issue.
The older brother is that profile of that which argues we must labor and strive to stay saved. As Jesus related the parable in his day that older brother was the scribes and Pharisee.
“Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing. “And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be. “And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.’ “But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him. “But he answered and said to his father, ‘Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends; but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.’ “And he said to him, ‘Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. ‘But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'” Luke 15:25-32
The Christian that is truly saved and indwelt is able to backslide. We're redeemed, we're not perfect. Some can lose faith because God brings so many challenges to them that they find them insurmountable. And yet, while we may leave Jesus , Jesus promised he would never ever leave us nor forsake us. When he knew who would be that sheep who knew Jesus' voice , Jesus would also know when that sheep would go astray. He had a parable to describe that as well. Remember? Matthew 18:12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?
The God of the old testament, testimony, is the God of the new. We are always comforted in the scriptures from cover to cover.
Psalm 55:22 Cast your burden on the Lord, and he will sustain you; he will never permit the righteous to be moved.
We're told that Heaven rejoices when a lost soul is saved. Think how there is celebration when one who backslides finds their way back to the Father. And they do that because the Father has always been with them. He celebrates and rejoices because when God knew the name of his elect, those for whom his calling would resonate as truth, before the creation of this world, he certainly knew all the steps we would take as his elect. Even when we wander from the road.
Jesus said no man shall take us from his hand. No one. That means we can't even choose to jump without Jesus catching us up.
God doesn't waste his breath calling those his omniscience knows prefer the world to eternal salvation.
Ralph,
I am surprised that by now you still do not have a complete grasp and understanding of salvation.
As to predetermination, since God has predestined all genuine believers for ultimate perfection and glorification, that in itself if sufficient to prove that you really don't understand the meaning of salvation.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)
So what has God revealed here through the apostle Paul?
DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE
LEADS TO
PREDESTINATION FOR THE PERFECTION OF THE SAINTS
THEREFORE
GOD CALLS
GOD JUSTIFIES
GOD SANCTIFIES
GOD GLORIFIES
As you can see, there is no back-tracking with God. But you are creating a man-made religion. This is not a license to sin, but a reason to be holy.
1 JOHN 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [PERFECTION AND GLORIFICATION]
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
I am surprised that by now you still do not have a complete grasp and understanding of salvation.
As to predetermination, since God has predestined all genuine believers for ultimate perfection and glorification, that in itself if sufficient to prove that you really don't understand the meaning of salvation.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)
So what has God revealed here through the apostle Paul?
DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE
LEADS TO
PREDESTINATION FOR THE PERFECTION OF THE SAINTS
THEREFORE
GOD CALLS
GOD JUSTIFIES
GOD SANCTIFIES
GOD GLORIFIES
As you can see, there is no back-tracking with God. But you are creating a man-made religion. This is not a license to sin, but a reason to be holy.
1 JOHN 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [PERFECTION AND GLORIFICATION]
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
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