Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[mailmandan]

it would not be so bad if they would just admit it, If you think we are saved by our deeds then say it, Don;t deny it, then go around preaching we are saved because we do all these deeds. All they do is make themselves look bad. And what is sad is I believe many of them can not even see it, They have been indoctrinated to believe this way.

The scary part is that many of these people who teach salvation by works don't even realize it because of their deep indoctrination and confusion with re-defining of terms which results in mixing faith and works together!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The scary part is that many of these people who teach salvation by works don't even realize it because of their deep indoctrination and confusion with re-defining of terms which results in mixing faith and works together!

religion has always been that way, They don't see paul and how he considered his religion dung compared to the knowledge of Christ.

Religion sounds good, it tickles our ears. and is hard to fight against, because our flesh loves it (we can see things)

Faith is not normal, and is almost impossible, because it is a hope in things not seen. thats why the gate is narrow and few their be who enter.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Don't confuse saving faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8) which is (belief, trust, reliance in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation) with the whole body of truth contained in the scriptures and make up the Christian faith and sets it apart from false religions and cults.

Actually, Ephesians 2:8 says the faith, which typically means the doctrine of Christ. This correlates with 1 Timothy 4:16

For by grace you are being saved through the faith; and this is a gift of GOD, not of you; Ephesians 2:8​

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Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16​

 

[mailmandan]

Actually, Ephesians 2:8 says the faith, which typically means the doctrine of Christ. This correlates with 1 Timothy 4:16

For by grace you are being saved through the faith; and this is a gift of GOD, not of you; Ephesians 2:8​

​

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16​

Which translation of Ephesians 2:8 are you reading? The KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV ALL unanimously say THROUGH FAITH. Even the Amplified Bible says THROUGH FAITH. The NIRV says because of your faith in Christ. ​

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It sounds to me like you are trying to sneak works "into" the back door of salvation THROUGH FAITH in Christ. ​

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In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in perservering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we perservere. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perserverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.​

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If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us. ​

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[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, Ephesians 2:8 says the faith, which typically means the doctrine of Christ. This correlates with 1 Timothy 4:16

For by grace you are being saved through the faith; and this is a gift of GOD, not of you; Ephesians 2:8​

​

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16​

I keep thinking I hear stuff which is out there. and I think I have heard it all. Then stuff like this pops up.

Satan must be laughing

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Which translation of Ephesians 2:8 are you reading? The KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV ALL unanimously say THROUGH FAITH. Even the Amplified Bible says THROUGH FAITH. The NIRV says because of your faith in Christ. It sounds to me like you are trying to sneak works "into" the back door of salvation THROUGH FAITH in Christ.

No, not trying to sneak words in. I was looking at the Greek. I looked at another Greek bible I have and it says faith without the definite article. So there is a variant in this verse depending on the manuscript. See for your self > http://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-8.htm. Some manuscripts like Texus Receptus say the faith (τῆς πίστεως) and some like Westcott and Hort say faith (πίστεως).

 

[mailmandan]

No, not trying to sneak words in. I was looking at the Greek. I looked at another Greek bible I have and it says faith without the definite article. So there is a variant in this verse depending on the manuscript. See for your self > http://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-8.htm. Some manuscripts like Texus Receptus say the faith (τῆς πίστεως) and some like Westcott and Hort say faith (πίστεως).

I'll stick with reputable translations that say THROUGH FAITH.

 

[justpassinthrough]

We are saved by a work of Christ's faith or labor of Christ's love. He works his works in us to both will and perform his good pleasure .It is God who can make our hearts soft .He performs that which is appointed to us according to Job 23:11-16

My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined.Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, "even that he doeth". For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:Job 23

The James 2 account below when understood correctly .I will paraphrase it according to my understanding in blue

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:21-23

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how Christ's faith wrought with Christ's works, and by Christ's works was Christ's work of faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was "imputed" unto Abraham for righteousness: and Abraham was called the Friend of God. James 2:21-23

So it was Christ that took Abraham's son, to offer him on the altar, and not Abraham?

That sure does not align with what the scripture so plainly says.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:21


Let's just read what the scripture is teaching us, so we will understand it and learn from it.




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

CONTRADICT YOURSELF MUCH? That is a distinction without a difference.

More opinion, in the face of scripture sure doesn't do anything for your point of view.



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

The scary part is that many of these people who teach salvation by works

No one is born again, or regenerated by doing works.


JPT

 

[mailmandan]

More opinion, in the face of scripture sure doesn't do anything for your point of view.

JPT

I have continuously used scripture to back up my arguments. Your scripture twisting and dissecting works into different categories of "works of the law of Moses, works that earns a wage, good works and works of obedience" doesn't do anything for your point of view.

 

[mailmandan]

No one is born again, or regenerated by doing works.

JPT

You said:

Only those who believe, [obey] the word are saved; born again, regenerated.
*What act of obedience are you implying here?

Justification is being declared righteous; right with God.
*Was Abraham "accounted as righteous" -- (is this what you mean by declared righteous with God) through faith in Genesis 15:6 or was it not until later, AFTER Abraham performed the work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22?

James teaches us the divine principle of faith, in which faith is activated [made alive] so as to produce the divine result that God intends.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
*So according to you, Abraham was not accounted as righteous until he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

The "works" James is describing is obedience: the corresponding act of obedience to God's word that produced faith.
*Acts of obedience do not produce faith. Faith produces obedience. YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS.

 

[justpassinthrough]

You said:

Only those who believe, [obey] the word are saved; born again, regenerated.
*What act of obedience are you implying here?

Confessing Jesus as Lord.

If we believe the Gospel, we will obey the Gospel.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JPT

 

[mailmandan]

Confessing Jesus as Lord.

If we believe the Gospel, we will obey the Gospel.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JPT

So that's your gospel? Round up a group of people and verbally confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord to them (or simply say those words out loud to yourself?) and ONLY AFTER THAT, you will be saved? What about those who are handicapped (moot) and cannot speak? How can they confess with their mouth? Such a person would remain lost according to your gospel. I see that you are still confused about Romans 10:9,10. Does "believes unto righteousness" = still lost according to your gospel?

We obey the Gospel by choosing to believe the Gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16).

 

[justpassinthrough]

You said:

Only those who believe, [obey] the word are saved; born again, regenerated.
*What act of obedience are you implying here?

Confessing Jesus as Lord.

If we believe the Gospel, we will obey the Gospel.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JPT

 

[mailmandan]

Confessing Jesus as Lord.

If we believe the Gospel, we will obey the Gospel.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JPT

I've already explained this to you numerous times, but unfortunately, you just don't have ears to hear.

 

[justpassinthrough]

So that's your gospel?

No, that's the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


The way we demonstarte we "believe" the Gospel, is by obeying the command of the Gospel to repent.


Repent is the command to turn to God and His kingdom by turning away from the kingdom you are in, and confessing Jesus as Lord, which is turning away from Satan as Lord.

Public Confession is how we demonstrate our commitment to submit to the rule and authority of the kingdom of God, whose ruler is Jesus Christ, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.


Hope this clears up your confusion about the Gospel.



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

I've already explained this to you numerous times, but unfortunately, you just don't have ears to hear.

I believe what the scriptures plainly teach, you have demonstrated that you plainly don't understand how the law of faith works, nor do you understand the Gospel and what is involved.


If you would stop arguing long enough to humble yourself and listen, you might very well learn something.



JPT

 

[mailmandan]

No, that's the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

What was the "gospel of the kingdom" that John the Baptist, Jesus and His apostles taught? Who was the audience?

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul tells us that the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. In this age, therefore, there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and compare with Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3). This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

The way we demonstarte we "believe" the Gospel, is by obeying the command of the Gospel to repent.

Those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel. Repentance precedes believe/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21).

Repent is the command to turn to God and His kingdom by turning away from the kingdom you are in, and confessing Jesus as Lord, which is turning away from Satan as Lord.

This is the result of repenting and choosing to believe the gospel.

Public Confession is how we demonstrate our commitment to submit to the rule and authority of the kingdom of God, whose ruler is Jesus Christ, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Romans 10:9,10 is not about public confession "work" for salvation. The word is near you (word of faith), in your mouth and in your heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8). *Not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together. *A moot person would remain lost according to your gospel, since he could not perform a public confession because he cannot speak.

Hope this clears up your confusion about the Gospel.

Unlike you, I have no confusion about the gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

I believe what the scriptures plainly teach, you have demonstrated that you plainly don't understand how the law of faith works, nor do you understand the Gospel and what is involved.

If you would stop arguing long enough to humble yourself and listen, you might very well learn something.

JPT

You only believe what the scriptures teach THROUGH THE LENS OF YOUR PRECONCEIVED BELIEFS. I clearly understand the difference between faith and works and I don't confuse faith and works. I also clearly understand the gospel. I've been humble and I've listened to your nonsense and you have nothing to teach me. I'm beginning to wonder if you are a troll.