Obedience

[JS1789]

Obedience isn’t works. Take God's grace out of the equation, for just a minute. Now, how much all of God' commands save you or avail you?

Zero.

Now, take away all the commands of God. Have only God's grace. Would you be saved without works/commandments?

No. Otherwise, everyone on earth would be saved by grace.

So, you need both.

But those “works”, those commandments, are not devised by man. Man did not originate them. They are devised by God for mankind.

 

[Blain]

Obedience to God is founded in grace (Titus 2:11-12) and love (2 Cor. 5:14ff). The same grace that saved us (Eph. 2:8) is also the same grace that motivates, instructs, and warns us not to continue in sin (Rom. 6:1, 12-18ff). Grace has the answers for salvation when one ask what must we/I do? What do you want me to do? (Acts 2:37-28; Acts 16:30ff; Acts 9:6). Grace tells us what we must do to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 7:21). Jesus brought us salvation. On the cross, He died for all men (2 Cor. 5:15), and He brought us a soul saving message to all through His sacrifice, His words, His apostles and disciples. All of that is grace and is how His grace that has brought salvation has appeared to all men. In having mercy upon us, He saved us by His grace which instructs us, not only how to be saved, but also how to live such a life that we can walk worthy of our calling as a Christian to glorify God (Ti. 3:5, Ti. 2:11; Eph. 2:8, 4:1; 1 Cor. 6:20).

It’s not our works of righteousness that saves us (Titus 3:5). It’s the righteousness commandments/works of God that do (Ps. 119:172, Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 15:1-4, Acts 17:30, Rom. 10:9-10, Acts 2:21, Col. 2:12, Acts 2:38, Jms 2:24). It is faith in Christ that does by the power of the gospel (Rom. 3:22, Phil. 3:9, Rom. 1:16).

God's grace is what helps me overcome my sin, not why I sin. Obedience to God is living by faith that works by love, as we continue to look to the author and finisher of our faith, Jesus (Gal. 5:6; Heb. 12:2). By His grace, we receive what is promised, which we do not deserve: Eternal life (1 Jn 2:25).

The works of Christ that save us is His death, burial, resurrection, and what He has commanded us to do—which those are God given commandments to be saved by His grace. The term “works” is sometimes the equivalent of “obedience.” Elsewhere Jesus promised victory to those who “keep my works,” i.e., the works (commands) prescribed by him (Rev. 2:26)

His grace instructs us (Titus 2:11-12).

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have access by faith into this grace…

Gal. 3:24 says justified by faith

How does get into this grace in Romans 5:2? They have to be justified by faith. But how is one be justified by faith? One must be baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27), and that is where we have access by faith into this grace (Rom. 5:2).

Let us “continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43) by allowing the grace-given instructions of Christ to teach us where we are living the life that is “denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age” (Titus 2:11). God’s revealed will was given to us by Jesus. By grace, He instructs us to do the Father’s will (Titus 2:11-12; Mt. 7:21). Meeting the conditions of the One who first offers the commands and bestows the grace is not earning anything. It’s simply desiring His will over your own.

Although we are to obey, even when we try to obey, we will never obey perfectly like Jesus did, and that is why even our obedience in of itself alone will not and cannot get us to heaven. That is why anybody that goes to heaven is due to God‘s grace and mercy. While we are to obey, we are not to trust our obedience to save us. We are to trust Jesus to save us. If we trust our obedience to save us we are trusting ourselves, and we are going to get let down every single time, but when we trust Jesus, we will not get let down.

I heard it once said that grace is the empowerment to overcome sin but there seem to be many different understandings of what grace actually is, on one hand trying to be as obedient as possible will always leave one dry because we cannot perfectly obey I had a discussion with someone on here several years ago who believed in perfectionism he truly believed he never sinned and me being the willing to learn type tried things his way to be perfect but alas I was only met with despair as I simply fell short the harder I tried the more I failed I was brought to a very dark place.

I also found that once I freed myself from that thinking my joy returned my life was not in ruin anymore and instead love was what ruled in my walk. That however is not the month challenge I took to obey and observe the law the best I could as I did not try to follow it perfectly I learned the hard way why we needed Jesus to be our saving grace but to obey it out of love for him and to honor him and it really makes a difference in both mind and spirit

 

[JS1789]

I heard it once said that grace is the empowerment to overcome sin but there seem to be many different understandings of what grace actually is, on one hand trying to be as obedient as possible will always leave one dry because we cannot perfectly obey I had a discussion with someone on here several years ago who believed in perfectionism he truly believed he never sinned and me being the willing to learn type tried things his way to be perfect but alas I was only met with despair as I simply fell short the harder I tried the more I failed I was brought to a very dark place.

I also found that once I freed myself from that thinking my joy returned my life was not in ruin anymore and instead love was what ruled in my walk. That however is not the month challenge I took to obey and observe the law the best I could as I did not try to follow it perfectly I learned the hard way why we needed Jesus to be our saving grace but to obey it out of love for him and to honor him and it really makes a difference in both mind and spirit

I think we all struggle with wanting to live for Christ to the best of our abilities, that for many, we can get the idea of sinless perfectionism (which I have never advocated in this thread, but neither have I advocated for a life of sin either). There will be times when we fall short and sin, but the important thing is we don’t seek to remain in that sin. Obedience is expressing our love for God. Grace isn’t a license to sin or an excuse to sin, but a teacher through the life of Christ on how to live. That doesn’t mean we are going to live perfect, but it means we are to look to the one who is, follow Him daily, and trust Him in the midst of our flaws. Seeking His mercy and grace, humbly throwing ourselves on it, always keeping a repentant heart, and allowing Him to mold us to be who He desires us to be. It’s a growth and a journey. A commitment.

 

[studier]

Obedience isn’t works.

Important to understand. Many don't.

 

[studier]

It’s a growth and a journey. A commitment.

Lifelong. It takes time and we have little clue along the way what we will know and understand when we near our end here.

 

[Blain]

Lifelong. It takes time and we have little clue along the way what we will know and understand when we near our end here.

A lot more than we do now and a lot less than we will in eternity. interestingly enough the buddah believe is that what we are doing now the journey of enlightment is actually their version of heaven a continous journey to enlightement

 

[wattie]

What role does obedience play in salvation? How do we know whether or not we have been obedient or faithful enough to go to heaven? Is it connected to grace? If so, how?

Obeying the Father's will at salvation, is entrusting your salvation with Jesus Christ.

This is first and foremost.

This is all through the book of John.

Not about being good enough.. but entrusting your salvation with Jesus.

Grace is all that will get a believer to heaven..not your efforts. Why? Because His standard is sinlessness..which a believer cannot achieve.

The truth part is the existence of hell for the non believer and the
discipline for a believer who is wayward.

Not by works...not by works.

 

[JS1789]

Not by works...not by works.

I agree that salvation is not based on good works (Titus 3:5) or of the law (Gal. 2:16), but by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). What I have difficulty understanding is harmonizing Eph. 2:8-9 with Matthew 25:36-45, 46, Rom. 2:6, 2 Cor. 5:10, 1 Peter 1:17. Could Jesus be talking about a dead faith vs a living faith (same as James 2), and Paul and Peter be talking about works of faith centered on God’s will?

 

[studier]

A lot more than we do now and a lot less than we will in eternity.

Agree as long as we maintain the pursuit which Paul talks about in Philippians3. I also view eternity as an endless learning experience learning from His infinite and omniscient mind.

 

[Blain]

Agree as long as we maintain the pursuit which Paul talks about in Philippians3. I also view eternity as an endless learning experience learning from His infinite and omniscient mind.

I wonder if we are to do any learning in eternity and just instead are given the knowledge of eternity?
Because if we are to do learning it would be an endless journey as he is just that vast and beyond understanding. Learning is due to lacking understanding after all but will we be lacking anything in that time I wonder? only time will tell I suppose until then we strive to learn in this body because we are lacking understanding
understanding God is a sheer impossibility we see through a fog or a viel right now but perhaps one day we will see clearly

 

[studier]

I wonder if we are to do any learning in eternity and just instead are given the knowledge of eternity?
Because if we are to do learning it would be an endless journey as he is just that vast and beyond understanding. Learning is due to lacking understanding after all but will we be lacking anything in that time I wonder? only time will tell I suppose until then we strive to learn in this body because we are lacking understanding
understanding God is a sheer impossibility we see through a fog or a viel right now but perhaps one day we will see clearly

Speculative of course as I'm not thinking any specific Scriptures but we are not and never will be Him so the endless journey seems to make sense and in a clarity we can't imagine here in this condition not to mention in time. I've always found this verse interesting:

NAS 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.

We will be like Him because we will see Him just as He is. There are some issues with this verse, but there is an aspect of our being like Him that is based in our seeing Him as He is. It seems like we just cannot grasp this reality and to be like Him we must actually do so. The ultimate light-bulb event. I think you're touching on the same thing in your last sentence, but we can't even fathom who and what we are, let alone who and what God is.​

​

Needless to say, amazing things await, and I look forward to being continually and more amazed forever.​

 

[timemeddler]

I'd say it matters, we need to do our best to obey, even though it's easy to go off course into temptation, or by ignorance, or apathy, but in the end the obedient will try to get back on track.

 

[Freddy2000]

i would only add. REfer to what Jesus said is the way


We can be sheep or goats

Study to see the difference

And remember not all who Believe in Him are known by him
many will Say call Him LORD and he will turn them away.

There is no simple answer in one verse or more. THE WHOLE Bible was written to teach us the way.
Jesus Himself said not on JOT or Tittle will be changed due to his coming, but he revealed the real way to interpret the scriptures. look at how He lived.

For starters when was the last time we lowered ourselves to wash anothers feet.

ill leave those who think otherwise comment

But Faith without Works is DEAD according to the Scriptures. But doing GOOD things that JESUS hasnt asked you to do directily is not the way into heaven. it is HEARING HIS voice and OBEYING

The people who Beleive need to find direction for their lives. and follow that direction

Imagine if Peter had simply stayed Fishing and not followed Jesus. He could claim he covered by Grace, that he beleived, and it was all ok.


But i repeat ALL SCRIPTURE is to be used. If there are texts that disagree with our Doctrines then it not the Scripture that is wrong, it not a SCRIPTURE for "those days" it is simply our lack of understanding how they all interlink.

Also go search what Jesus responded to the people who asked HIM how to get into the Kingdom

And dont forget the CHURCH (or properly translated as ASSEMBLY) does not replace Gods PEople. the Gentiles will be grafted into the JEws. Not to replace them. but to be one with them.

 

[wattie]

I agree that salvation is not based on good works (Titus 3:5) or of the law (Gal. 2:16), but by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). What I have difficulty understanding is harmonizing Eph. 2:8-9 with Matthew 25:36-45, 46, Rom. 2:6, 2 Cor. 5:10, 1 Peter 1:17. Could Jesus be talking about a dead faith vs a living faith (same as James 2), and Paul and Peter be talking about works of faith centered on God’s will?

So.. the thing with this is getting the difference between THE faith... like prayer...evangelism...studying your bible, attending church etc... and...

Saving faith..which is purely believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.

So James writes mostly about THE faith. All the examples he gives.. are people using what they have already been given.

Not that if they didnt do those things they weren't saved...or if they didn't, they lose salvation..but that their faith is not used..it is not profitable to others. That is the context.

I need to look at the other verses..but another example is James talking about being justified by works and Paul saying you aren't justified by works.

Contradiction? No.. they aren't writing about the same thing.

James.. works are justified as pleasing to God AFTER already having faith..already been converted.

Paul.. for salvation.. in the process of being given it to begin with.. to be converted...not after conversion...

Works cannot justify.

Salvation to begin with vs a salvaged life.

 

[vassal]

What role does obedience play in salvation? How do we know whether or not we have been obedient or faithful enough to go to heaven? Is it connected to grace? If so, how?

After salvation through God's grace, Jesus teaches that it is through the Holy Spirit that we are empowered and transformed. The Holy Spirit works in us to change our hearts, helping us to love God more deeply and desire to obey Him. It’s not just about us deciding to obey on our own strength; it’s the Spirit that moves us, teaches us, and gives us the power to live in a way that pleases God.

Jesus spoke often about the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer. In John 14:16-17 (NKJV), Jesus promised the coming of the Holy Spirit to His followers, saying:

“And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.”​

Here, Jesus is showing that the Holy Spirit will be sent to live in us, guiding us in truth and empowering us to live the life He calls us to. The Spirit doesn’t just help us obey out of duty; He fills us with a love for God, transforming our desires and making us more like Christ. This transformation is the heart of the Christian life: the Spirit in us helps us to love God deeply, and out of that love, we want to obey Him and do His will.

Jesus also told His disciples in John 16:13 (NKJV),

“However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth.”​

The Holy Spirit is our guide. He teaches us what is pleasing to God, helps us understand God's will, and leads us to live in alignment with that will. It’s through the Holy Spirit that we are transformed from the inside out, so that obedience becomes a natural response to the grace we've received.

In John 15:5 (NKJV), Jesus gives us another key insight into this process:

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.”​

This illustrates that it is only through our connection with Jesus, empowered by the Holy Spirit, that we can bear the fruit of obedience. Obedience is the result of abiding in Jesus and allowing His Spirit to work in us. It’s not about striving to obey on our own, but about staying connected to Him and allowing His Spirit to transform us.

So, after salvation by grace, the Holy Spirit is the one who enables us to love God and empowers us to obey Him. The more we yield to the Spirit, the more our hearts are transformed, and the more we desire to do God's will. Obedience, then, is the natural outgrowth of a heart that has been changed by God’s grace and empowered by the Holy Spirit. It’s a life lived in relationship with God, not out of fear or obligation, but because we love Him deeply and want to reflect His love in the world.

This is the process Jesus teaches: grace comes first, the Holy Spirit works within us to transform our hearts, and out of that transformation, we are led to obey God’s will. It’s all a gift, from beginning to end, with the Spirit being the one who makes it possible.

Blessings!

 

[homwardbound]

The Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and the Mosaic Law is truth (Psalms 119:142). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Mosaic Law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for him self a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus finished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20). Following the greatest two commandments of the Mosaic Law is not doing something other than walking in obedience to it. The way to believe in God's word made flesh is not by rejecting God's word. Obedience to the Mosaic Law has nothing to do with trying to be good enough. Indeed, God loves us, which is why He gave us His gift of the Mosaic Law.

Not rejecting God's Love and mercy to us all
Hebrews 7:11-12
Where there is a change in Priesthood, there is a change of the Law
Jesus was not a Levite Priest and the first chosen messed up the Ten Laws literally
They could not see what all Ten Laws were about being of love to us all.
The first Four are summed up in Love, God Father's Love. first above everything else even the self, and no one can do that of themselves, proven through out the First (Old Testament) not one could be perfect but Son Jesus who did it in our stead for us to be saved by Father in Daddy's Spirit and Truth to lead us new (not of self), Those that believe this Jesus is risen for them, see the work to get in is over finished (John 19:30), have the new high Priest, as risen forever. Which will never ever die ever again. He is risen where the new life of Son for all is given, it is not to be worked for. It is to be, believed, appreciated and then see the need to trust Father in Daddy's Holy Spirit to lead and that is all folks, love to all is the call. I do not work out my own salvation anymore, God did that in Son once for all to be given it. Those that are trying as you have stated, one day will come to the end of the self also, and then stand in belief to Father and Son or not. Then the end. Hoping you are in belief as only you know this truth, between God and you, Romans 8
See all the scripture under Law in the Gospels before his one time willing death once for us all to get saved in his risen Life was under Law. The Call is to love all, yes even those you presently hate, that did you wrong yes to me at least is all I can attest to. I can only say what I see as you can only too, so thank you
We are all in growing up Hebrews 5:12-6:3

 

[Edify]

Luke 12:42And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43Blessed is that slave whom his [ad]master finds so doing when he comes. 44Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will [ae]cut him in two, and assign [af]him a place with the unbelievers. 47And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of [ag]a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

What have you been given? What is it's value? He who treats it as nothing has judged the value of the LORD's giving as nothing, & will receive nothing in the end.
Those who realize they have been given much, will be faithful in much, and be rewarded even more.

 

[Edify]

John 14:21The one who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, “Lord, what has happened that You are going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will follow My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our dwelling with him. 24The one who does not love Me does not follow My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

John 14:21The one who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, “Lord, what has happened that You are going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will follow My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our dwelling with him. 24The one who does not love Me does not follow My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

Amen our obedience is through Christs doctrine and not Moses doctrine or the tables of stone

 

[Beckworth]

What role does obedience play in salvation? How do we know whether or not we have been obedient or faithful enough to go to heaven? Is it connected to grace? If so, how?

If you read about HOW people were saved in the New Testament, ( read the book of acts) you will quickly see that “obedience” was always necessary and was evident in every case of salvation after Jesus was no longer here to save people in person. Jesus left a “will” (Hebrews 9:16-17) and in His “will” he specified what a person must do to receive salvation. Just exactly like anyone today who has money, leaves a will, sometimes leaving “conditions” that must be met before one can inherit.

The Bible says that God is NOT partial, nor is He a respecter of persons.( Acts 19:34, Roman’s 2:11, 1Peter 1:17.). That’s why, in the New Tesrament after the death of Jesus , every person was saved the same way. Not different “plans of salvation, not different doctrines, churches, or faiths. Ephesians 4 says “ONE FAITH, one baptism, one church (body).” Even though there are many denominations, all teaching different ways to be saved—“sinner’s prayer”, “faith only”, Holy Spirit baptism, etc. the Bible still only teaches one way for all people. The Bible has not changed. Look for your answers there.

Jesus Himself told Saul of Tarsus in Acts 9, “Go into the city and there it shall be told you what you MUST DO.” There was something he “MUST” do. That’s works and obedience. I might point out, he already believed the moment he saw and talked to Jesus. His faith is evident when he asked Jesus “what would you have me to do, Lord?” Ok, look at what we have—we have something that must be done, commanded by God. It wasn’t something that Saul came up with by himself. It wasn’t Saul’s work—it was a work of God that he “must do;” it came from God and was commanded by God. It was a work ofGod—not man. Not a work Saul can boast about because it is not Saul’s work. John 6:28-29 talks about “works of God.” So Saul “ believed”. On the road to Damascus, then he spent 3 days praying, repenting I’m sure, but that didn’t save him, either. He still hasn’t been TOLD anything and Jesus said he would be TOLD what he MUST DO. Finally, after 3 days, Ananias comes to him and says, “what are you waiting for? Arise and be BAPTIZED and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.” (Acts 22:16) Up until this moment Saul still has his sins that he needs forgiveness for. He has believed, repented, prayed, but still has his sins. This must be true because the Bible is not wrong and Ananias says he needs to get rid of his sins by being baptized. This, by the way, HARMONIZES with what Peter says in Acts 2:38 where he says baptism is “…for the forgiveness of sins.” It harmonizes with what Jesus said in Mark 16:16- “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” It harmonizes with what Peter teaches in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism saves us. It harmonizes with what James says in James 2:24- “…not by faith only.”
Now, Saul has been told “what he MUST DO.”

Does he need to OBEY what Ananias tells him to do? Do you really believe God will save him if he doesn’t obey God? I don’t think so. Just like, I don’t believe God woujd have cured Naaman’s leprosy if he had refused to dip 7 times in the river Jordan or if he had tried to dip in a different river. God doesn’t lie; if He says you MUST do something, I believe God means what He says, and we are indeed foolish to believe we can just ignore and disobey God.

Grace is unmerited favor from God. We don’t deserve God’s grace. It is a “gift” from God. A favor from God to us. I’d like to try to illustrate God’s grace and how it works with “works” and “salvation, by using Noah as an example. God decided that He was going to destroy the world with water. Mankind had no idea that God was planning on doing this. But there was one good man, Noah, God decided to do Noah a “favor” and tell him what He was planning to do and to offer him a way to be saved. It was God’s GRACE that offered him a way to be saved. Would Noah have been saved without God’s GRACE? No, of course not. He would have drowned just like everyone else. He needed a plan for how to be saved. So by God’s grace, he was given a chance to be saved. God told him something he had to do. ( work) . He MUST build a boat. To be saved. Does Noah have to OBEY God to be saved? Of course he does. He would not have been saved otherwise. God’s grace provided a plan for salvation and revealed it to Noah. God HAD to reveal it to Noah or else he would not have known what to do. That’s all GRACE! God did His part. Now, Noah had to BELIEVE God and obey God’s commands for salvation to be possible. All three work together, Grace, works (of God) and obedience. What about us? By Grace, God sent His Son into the world to die for us. By God’s grace He revealed his plan for salvation to us. God has done His part. He’s given us a chance to be saved. But God has given instructions, commands for us, that we MUST Do if we want that salvation. God has done His part, but we must do ours. God has made promises to us and He does not lie. So Jesus says, “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” There are other scriptures that tell us more that we must do. Like Acts 17:30 -God commands all men to repent. And Romans 10:10- confession is made to salvation. And Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Psalms says we must take the “SUM” of His word. That means we must take it all and add it together. All of God’s words and commands that apply to us are true (Psalms 119:160).

Revelation 22:18-19 warns us not to leave anything out-“don’t take away..”. So it’s important that we obey Him.