Not only are we not under the law, we should not try to abide by it.

[Macabeus]

By the 'law' are you referring to the 10 Commandments are just the hundreds of ordinances that were proclaimed in the OT. I agree that these ordinances and rules and regulations do no pertain to us but I certainly do not believe the 10 Commandments are obsolete. If they were then there would no longer be any knowledge of sin.

That is precisely the purpose of the Law. The knowledge of sin and the need for the Saviour.

There are different aspects of the Law. Ceremonial, dietary, moral. When we say we are not under the Law, it means

A. We are not obliged to keep the ceremonial laws, sacrifices, circumcision, etc

B. We are not obligated to keep the dietary laws, though we may if we choose. We can circumcise our children and keep feasts too, but they are not obligated and have nothing to do with salvation

C. We are no longer under the curse of the moral law, which can only condemn us, for it is written cursed is He that does not continue in all things that are written there in. But certainly, we want to keep the Spirit of the moral law, which is fulfilled in love

He who loves keeps the Law, Jesus took care of fulfilling the whole law, and His command is to love one another. He who loves as He loves has the law written in His heart, which is the what Jesus came to give us

 

[Dino246]

I am not cursed and I will not be cursed for keeping the law, because keeping the law does not curse you. It's only when you try justify yourself by keeping the whole law instead of faith in Christ that you are under the curse of the law.

Sir, your ignorance of Scripture is dangerous.

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

 

[Guojing]

Are you saying that God does not just want us to have faith in Jesus, but wants our money too?

God does not need our money, all our money belongs to him Haggai 2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.

But he wants us to realize that we are rich, not because of our own efforts, but because he is our source, he has blessed us with the power to get wealth, because of the blessings of Abraham

Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Deut 8:17-18
17 You may say to yourself, “My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me.” 18 But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your ancestors, as it is today.

Paul emphasized in 2 Cor 9 that there is this spiritual principle in play, the law of sowing and reaping

6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

We give away money, not because we want to be rich, we give because we are already rich because of Jesus's becoming poor on the cross, and we got his riches in the divine exchange.

I agree with you that Malachi 3 is often misused in many churches to put fear onto the congregation to make them give. That lesson has a simple message, we give to avoid being cursed.

Now, it's important to be clear, just because Jesus' death on the cross has taken the curse away from us, and yes, that includes the curse for robbing God by not giving your tithe and offerings, it does not follow that trusting in the Lord by giving your tithes and offerings is not a principle that Christians should follow.

Galatians 3, my favorite chapter in the New Testament (Deut 8 is my favorite OT chapter), emphasized this
23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This 1 Cor passage is reinforcing the Galatians passage by saying that, while the Jews were under the law, God had to use a system of punishment to teach the Jews how they should tithe to the Lord. Like parents, it is unwise to reason with a toddler since he is unlikely to understand so you use a system of punishment to get him to learn certain behaviour.

However, once we receive Jesus as our Lord, as we become adults, we would now have the capability to truly understand the soundness of things that our parents taught us when we were young. You now do the right things because you are aware that actions have consequences

An analogy will make things clear. When your kids are very young, you will often remind them daily, “Do not touch the sharp knives in the kitchen, do not put your hand in the stove, I will spank you if you do”. It’s because when someone was younger, there may not be much point to reason with them.

But when an adult comes to our house, it will be silly for us to give the same warnings, because it would be insulting. Yet, it does not follow that he should then put his hand on the stove, just because the same warnings that we would give to children, we no longer give to him.

 

[Dino246]

Too much text to respond to. I'll just say this. Jesus said, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Why would he call sinners to repent if all you had to do was believe in his sacrifice? Does Jesus tell the truth or not? Clearly your (apparent) belief that repenting is pointless is absurdly false.

Read my whole post. It won't take long.

Then read Galatians.

Kindly don't respond until you have done both.

 

[joseph123]

Sir, your ignorance of Scripture is dangerous.

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

It certainly isn't dangerous. How much of the Bible have you read? All of it? I have..

That verse is talking about people who rely on the law to justify them. You are cursed if you rely on the law alone to go to heaven because you must keep the whole law to do so and that is impossible.

Enough said. I've iterated this before to you.

 

[Dino246]

It certainly isn't dangerous. How much of the Bible have you read? All of it? I have..

That verse is talking about people who rely on the law to justify them. You are cursed if you rely on the law alone to go to heaven because you must keep the whole law to do so and that is impossible.

Enough said. I've iterated this before to you.

Ah yes... the ad hominem comment. I'm not surprised.

Your misinterpretation of Scripture is even more dangerous than your ignorance of it. At least you admit that keeping the whole law is impossible.

 

[Adam4Eve]

God does not need our money, all our money belongs to him Haggai 2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.

But he wants us to realize that we are rich, not because of our own efforts, but because he is our source, he has blessed us with the power to get wealth, because of the blessings of Abraham

Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Deut 8:17-18
17 You may say to yourself, “My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me.” 18 But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your ancestors, as it is today.

Paul emphasized in 2 Cor 9 that there is this spiritual principle in play, the law of sowing and reaping

6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

We give away money, not because we want to be rich, we give because we are already rich because of Jesus's becoming poor on the cross, and we got his riches in the divine exchange.

I agree with you that Malachi 3 is often misused in many churches to put fear onto the congregation to make them give. That lesson has a simple message, we give to avoid being cursed.

Now, it's important to be clear, just because Jesus' death on the cross has taken the curse away from us, and yes, that includes the curse for robbing God by not giving your tithe and offerings, it does not follow that trusting in the Lord by giving your tithes and offerings is not a principle that Christians should follow.

Galatians 3, my favorite chapter in the New Testament (Deut 8 is my favorite OT chapter), emphasized this
23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This 1 Cor passage is reinforcing the Galatians passage by saying that, while the Jews were under the law, God had to use a system of punishment to teach the Jews how they should tithe to the Lord. Like parents, it is unwise to reason with a toddler since he is unlikely to understand so you use a system of punishment to get him to learn certain behaviour.

However, once we receive Jesus as our Lord, as we become adults, we would now have the capability to truly understand the soundness of things that our parents taught us when we were young. You now do the right things because you are aware that actions have consequences

An analogy will make things clear. When your kids are very young, you will often remind them daily, “Do not touch the sharp knives in the kitchen, do not put your hand in the stove, I will spank you if you do”. It’s because when someone was younger, there may not be much point to reason with them.

But when an adult comes to our house, it will be silly for us to give the same warnings, because it would be insulting. Yet, it does not follow that he should then put his hand on the stove, just because the same warnings that we would give to children, we no longer give to him.

I agree with some of what you've said, but I'm not sure where you're going with some other things you've mentioned.

Are you saying the Christians, under the new covenant are REQUIRED to give?

Where does it say that Christians are obliged to give in the NT, and specifically to a Church?

 

[joseph123]

Ah yes... the ad hominem comment. I'm not surprised.

Your misinterpretation of Scripture is even more dangerous than your ignorance of it. At least you admit that keeping the whole law is impossible.

This is what I meant when I said earlier that there's no point talking to you. I already knew that you would never change your mind in a million years. So I'm not surprised either. I doubt you will ever see the truth. I hope you find the real Jesus one day. I don't think you ever will.

 

[joseph123]

I agree with some of what you've said, but I'm not sure where you're going with some other things you've mentioned.

Are you saying the Christians, under the new covenant are REQUIRED to give?

Where does it say that Christians are obliged to give in the NT, and specifically to a Church?

Hey, Adam4Eve. I think you're better off giving to the homeless and needy. God appreciates that more than church donations.

Christians are "required" to give. I say "required" because technically there's a gray area. At minimum, we have to repent to go to heaven. But scripture does state that you have to produce "good fruit" to go to heaven. Here is the proof (which nobody can argue against):

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matthew 7:19

 

[Guojing]

I agree with some of what you've said, but I'm not sure where you're going with some other things you've mentioned.

Are you saying the Christians, under the new covenant are REQUIRED to give?

Where does it say that Christians are obliged to give in the NT, and specifically to a Church?

We are not required to do anything. If you don't want to give any money at all to churches, God still loves you and sees you as righteous. Jesus had paid for it.

But you give because you are aware of the hold of money has on your life. You give because you are trusting the Lord that he is your source of all income and wealth. You give because God your Father is a giver and you have his DNA. You give because you want to bless the full time ministers in the church you attend, that has taught you the marvelous Gospel of Grace.

All these giving must be done cheerfully, and without compulsion, as Paul said in 2 Cor 8-9

 

[Macabeus]

We are not under the Torah law, but it is still good to try to abide by the non-sacrificial Torah laws. Every one of the non-sacrificial laws are a blessing to keep. (Jesus took the place of the sacrificial laws.)

Also, we are expected to keep the 10 Commandments at a bare minimum. The proof is essentially in this verse:

“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, fornicators, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” - Revelation 21:8

IF you fulfill the command to "love God with all that is in you" and "love your neighbor as yourself" you will not have other gods, worship idols, steal, lie, commit adultery, etc. So he who loves fulfills the moral law. As it has been written, "love is the fulfillment of the Law."

Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law in everything He did all the way to the cross.

Jesus fulfilled the moral Law in His perfect sinless life, His perfect righteousness imputed to us through faith

Jesus fulfills the moral law in us, His nature imparted to us.

Substitution, Imputation, Impartation.

 

[joseph123]

Jesus fulfills the moral law in us, His nature imparted to us.

Substitution, Imputation, Impartation.

See, I think this is where modern day Christians get it wrong. I think that Jesus does give us the ability to fulfill the moral law, but that it's ultimately our decision to fulfill the moral law on our own. I think that we still have to make the decision to follow the basic moral laws like not killing and not committing adultery on our own.

There are many people who go to church who still commit adultery, still fornicate, still cheat and lie. Jesus doesn't cover for us when we make the decision to do those things. We have to repent from those things and ask for forgiveness. And that is the true path of Christianity.

 

[Grandpa]

I don't think that's really true. The only way that's true is if you're talking about salvation. Keeping the whole law cannot save you because we can't keep the whole law. Only the blood of Jesus can save you. However, if you are saved, then the law is definitely a blessing to keep.

Think about it, Dino, if you're open to reason at all. The law is righteousness. Therefore, keeping the law is a good thing. How do you know the law is righteousness? You can prove it with a simple reasoning process:

1. How do we know Jesus was perfectly righteous? Only because he kept the whole law.

2. Therefore, keeping the law must make you righteous.

It's simple, keeping the law makes you righteous. Of course, you must believe in Jesus to go to heaven. Faith is credited as righteousness but keeping the law is credited as righteousness as well.

The 10 Commandments are a special part of the law in that they are extremely important in order for you to go to heaven.

If it were possible for you to keep the law it would make you righteous.

But its not possible.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[joseph123]

If it were possible for you to keep the law it would make you righteous.

But its not possible.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I'll say this again like I've said it before. Righteousness doesn't come by the law because righteousness only lies in following the whole law and it is impossible to do the whole law.

You are still righteous if you follow the law to the best of your ability. It doesn't save you on its own, but you are more righteous.

 

[Macabeus]

It certainly isn't dangerous. How much of the Bible have you read? All of it? I have..

That verse is talking about people who rely on the law to justify them. You are cursed if you rely on the law alone to go to heaven because you must keep the whole law to do so and that is impossible.

Enough said. I've iterated this before to you.

I think I know what you are trying to say, but when you say "you are cursed if you rely on the Law alone..." it's not coming out right. We don't rely on the Law at all. It's not faith plus the law or faith plus works, it's faith alone. Justified, saved, and kept by faith alone. But when we are saved, regenerated, made new, God writes His Law in our heart, that the righteous requirements of the Law may be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. God puts His love in our hearts, and love is the fulfillment of the Law.

As imperfect as we are, if we love, there is no law against loving. And we love because He first loved us.

I come to God wholly guilty, unclean, bankrupt. There is no righteousness in me whatsoever to commend me to God. Even my righteousnesses are filthy rags before Him. I have nothing to offer. I come with open hands.

So the Law shows us that we are dead in sins, drives us to the Saviour, and then His Perfect righteousness is imputed to us. That is, Jesus lived a sinless, perfect life, and His perfection is put on our account as if we have always been and will always be as sinless as He is. He took our sin and gave us His righteousness. But righteousness is not only imputed (put on our account) it is also imparted, (put in our heart). Now the rest of our Christian life is "working out what God worked into us". But this is not in order to be saved. We are already saved by faith, and this outworking of God's grace is exactly what God saved us unto.

Being confident that He who began a good work in you will complete it unto the Day of Christ Jesus.

 

[Macabeus]

See, I think this is where modern day Christians get it wrong. I think that Jesus does give us the ability to fulfill the moral law, but that it's ultimately our decision to fulfill the moral law on our own. I think that we still have to make the decision to follow the basic moral laws like not killing and not committing adultery on our own.

There are many people who go to church who still commit adultery, still fornicate, still cheat and lie. Jesus doesn't cover for us when we make the decision to do those things. We have to repent from those things and ask for forgiveness. And that is the true path of Christianity.

We don't do anything on our own. Jesus said "without me, you can do nothing". But on the other hand "I can do all things through Christ, who gives me strenghth."

As to the rest of your post, if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If we love, we will not commit adultery, fornicate, lie, or steal. When we do those things, we are not loving God and neighbor, we are loving sin and self. So the key to not doing those things is to have the love of God in our heart. And only Jesus can put it there.

Loving is not a test of willpower, it is a test of relationship...

We're all deeply imperfect, but as Christians, we need to submit to God's Word and God's Spirit, and as we do so He transforms our heart. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind...

 

[Macabeus]

A Christian should be neither antinomian nor legalistic.

a. We are not under the LAW

b. but we are not without law, for we are under the rule of love

 

[joseph123]

We don't do anything on our own. Jesus said "without me, you can do nothing". But on the other hand "I can do all things through Christ, who gives me strenghth."

As to the rest of your post, if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If we love, we will not commit adultery, fornicate, lie, or steal. When we do those things, we are not loving God and neighbor, we are loving sin and self. So the key to not doing those things is to have the love of God in our heart. And only Jesus can put it there.

Loving is not a test of willpower, it is a test of relationship...

We're all deeply imperfect, but as Christians, we need to submit to God's Word and God's Spirit, and as we do so He transforms our heart. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind...

I think this is where things become unclear. It's true that remaining in Christ causes one to walk in the Spirit and produce good fruit. But how do you remain in Christ, just by accepting Christ into your heart? I think that John 15 gives us some of the answer:

5 “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

9 “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10 When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love."

So perhaps what it means to remain in Christ is for us to obey his commandments. This is my entire point about our obligation to follow Christ's commandments.

 

[Guojing]

So perhaps what it means to remain in Christ is for us to obey his commandments. This is my entire point about our obligation to follow Christ's commandments.

I think my point about giving sums it up well. You are not trying to remain in Christ by obeying his commandments. You are ALWAYS in Christ no matter what you do. But because you are in Christ, and led by his Spirit, you will naturally bear fruit without even realizing it.

An analogy, a boy may not grow a beard now. He should not grit his teeth and tell himself "I have to grow a beard, I have to grow a beard". His job is just to rest in the Lord and enjoy his years, knowing that, as he grows in age, the beard will come effortlessly.

 

[joseph123]

I think my point about giving sums it up well. You are not trying to remain in Christ by obeying his commandments. You are ALWAYS in Christ no matter what you do. But because you are in Christ, and led by his Spirit, you will naturally bear fruit without even realizing it.

An analogy, a boy may not grow a beard now. He should not grit his teeth and tell himself "I have to grow a beard, I have to grow a beard". His job is just to rest in the Lord and enjoy his years, knowing that, as he grows in age, the beard will come effortlessly.

I don't know about that philosophy. Where in the Bible does it say that everything should come automatically? The way I've read the Bible it seems like remaining in Christ comes from making an effort to obey him.