NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED

[peldom10]

[QUOTE="Pilgrimshope, post: 4736997, member: 300996"]I’d say everyone who believes shall be saved

but I’d say what we believe is what matters of it’s the actual gospel of the kingdom belief is what brings all the repentance and obedience later from faith

belief is definately salvstion but believing false doctrines isn’t. We have to believe Jesus and his word his gospel brings everything else but many false ideas exist and many are led astray from truth by believing things other than the gospel we have to believe the things jesus taught and persevere in them

it’s not a matter of whether belief saves us it’s about what and who we believe believing Jesus brings true worship repentance , obedience and righteousness in deed and truth all because we accept and believe the truth

I understand I think what your saying a lot of people say I believe but they reject his teachings meant for belief and repentance and life

We gotta accept and believe this

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Jesus teachings saves us if we believe he will draw us near but if we hear and reject there’s nothing to believe and bring us to repentance

we need to follow the spirit

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the term “believe “ has been misdirected by false doctrines believing right saves believing wrong leads astray and condemns

This has happened and is constantly happening

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭-2

it’s not that belief isn’t enough it’s what we believe that matters do I believe I need to repent and follow Jesus teachings ? That can save me if I do .

or Do I believe Jesus words don’t apply and I’m already saved and repentance isn’t for me and I can freely sin and inherit eternalLife because he died and rose ? That can destroy me if I believe it

we’re going to live by our true belief whether right or wrong so changing our belief conforming to Christ and his word is the answer[/QUOTE]

If someone believes in doctrine not supported...i.e.....baptism not required.....they are not born again and God will....spew them out of His mouth (quote).

 

[peldom10]

error

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't recall Reading anywhere where the Jews in John 8 or Simon the sorcerer gave a profession of faith. If you have such a passage, please post it here for us to read.

Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. (Acts 8:13) The rest of the story shows us that there was no genuine repentance and faith on the part of Simon the Sorcerer. So false professions are common, but you are trying to muddy the waters.

Here's a question for you? Has anyone ever become saved by keeping any of God's commandments? I would like a reply

The only commandments by which men are saved are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31;17:30;20:21)

 

[peldom10]

Thank you for that reply Charlie, you actually touched on the next part of my opening post which has to do with the heart.

The KEY to believing, in the way that God has required it, is with the heart, as you mentioned. But, the next question we have to ask is, with which heart?

Answering this question is what will allow us to correctly solidify our doctrine of "believing".

The Bible teaches that an unsaved human being has a heart of stone. This is the case with everyone who was ever conceived of a man and woman. This heart, the Bible describes as being deceitful and desperately wicked.

Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV) 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This is not the heart by which someone believed in the manner which God required. Something had to happen before an individual could believe. God first had to do all the work of regeneration within that individual and bring them from their spiritual death to spiritual life.

Only after God had performed this work of regeneration, could that individual obey God's commandment to believe in the way that God required it. God explains the regeneration process here. Please notice that God is the one performing all the work.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 (KJV) 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The majority of people believe that one has to be sincere as they choose to believe in Christ and then that will produce true regeneration. But that is not found in the scriptures.

There was only ever one requirement for a person to become saved. They had to hear the gospel, that's it.

Romans 10:17 (KJV) 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The "hearing" being spoken of here is not physical hearing but spiritual hearing. Faith comes by having your spiritual ears opened by God. And the spiritual opening of the ears (salvation) came by the Word of God.

This is why the gospel had to be preached in all the world, so that God could apply his spoken word to each and everyone he chose to save and give them ears to hear, meaning give them salvation.

Now we can understand why Christ often said, he that hath ears to hear let him hear". Well, physically, everyone had ears to hear (unless they were deaf), but that's not what Christ was referring to. Christ was speaking to those who had already become saved, as they were given ears to hear the spiritual truths of Christ. As opposed to some Pharisees who thought they were children of God, but they did not have salvation. In other words, they did not have ears to hear.

John 8:47 (KJV) 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Getting back to the heart. Once God performed the action of regeneration, he gave that individual a new heart, a perfect heart. This is the heart which Romans 10 is speaking of.

Romans 10:9-10 (KJV) 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

So, the reason many who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are not truly saved, is because they trust in a work they have performed by choosing to believe in Jesus Christ, thinking that that automatically saved them. But they are trusting in a work of righteousness by obeying God's commandment to believe.

Titus 3:5 (KJV) 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Not biblical.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Some people are fooling themselves. Example, "Okay, I've said the 'Sinner's Prayer' and now am Saved! I was saved at 10am on June 15th. Now I can go and do anything I want. Nothing can take this salvation from me!" First of all, know that while the intention to say a sinner’s prayer is good, the prayer itself is not what saves you. It’s an oft-repeated prayer, but unfortunately in some circles, it’s held up as a sort of badge of honor, a guarantee of eternal life. It’s not a guarantee.

Once I say the Sinner's Prayer, I can go my own way, oblivious to the teachings of Jesus and His Gospel. This is a dangerous/dangerous teaching. Souls will be lost because of this teaching.

 

[CherieR]

Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. (Acts 8:13) The rest of the story shows us that there was no genuine repentance and faith on the part of Simon the Sorcerer. So false professions are common, but you are trying to muddy the waters.
The only commandments by which men are saved are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31;17:30;20:21)

What do you think Simon had believed if not the gospel? Curious to know your thoughts on this.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Sadly, many are being mislead. The Sinner's Prayer isn't even Scriptural. The sinner’s prayer is not biblical, it’s simply NOT in the Bible, it’s nowhere to be found. There is no biblical warrant for it, either explicit or implicit. The sinner’s prayer is a man-made invention. Having said that, I’m not saying that the Lord cannot save you despite you having said the sinner’s prayer.

But I know that I am not saved by my reciting the Sinner's Prayer. Jesus expects much more from us. He expects a Living Faith that follows His teachings in the Gospels.

Nothing wrong with the Sinner's Prayer but it won''t save you.

What do you think Simon had believed if not the gospel? Curious to know your thoughts on this.

Simon didn't believe in Jesus, he was only looking to gain in power and wealth from a false beliefe..

Simon was a magician who was sort of a big shot in Samaria, popularly known as the “Great Power” (Acts 8:9-11). But then an actual big shot, St. Phillip, came through town and presented the Gospel, which put Simon’s tricks to shame. And then, significantly, Acts 8:13 tells us “Simon himself believed and was baptized.” Note that: Simon believes and is baptized. In Mark 16:16, Jesus says that “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.” So in Acts 8:13 Simon got saved. He didn’t just “seem to believe” or “appear to be saved,” we’re told he actually “believed and was baptized” by an author inspired by the Holy Spirit.
But then some even bigger shots came to Samaria, Peter and John. And they went around imparting the Holy Spirit upon people. And then Simon fell back to his old ways (Acts 8:18-24):

When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”​

 

[EddieRamos]

Many Christians believe that faith in Jesus simply means believing in Him as Lord and Savior. But true Christian faith in Jesus is much deeper than that. Jesus told us that faith in Him includes believing and following His teachings and obeying His commandments.

Jesus once asked His apostles, “How can you say that you love Me, if you don’t keep My commandments.

Jesus told His disciples, “I give you a new commandment; love one another as I have loved you. This is how all will know that you are My disciples.”

In the Gospel of John (14:15), Jesus is clear when He says, “ He who loves me keeps my words and whoever does not love me does not keep My words. Faith includes following what Jesus taught. Can you get to heaven without love of Jesus?

Jesus makes it clear, many times, that faith includes believing and following His teachings, “He told us (Matt 7:24-27) “Everyone who hears My words and does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house upon sand.”

Jesus taught that the most important commandment is to love God with all our heart and our neighbor as our self. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, He says, Do this and you shall have eternal life.

That’s worth repeating, Jesus said, “ Love God with all our heart and our neighbor as our self, Do this, and you shall have eternal life.


Jesus says that when we show love for our brothers and sisters, we are showing love for Jesus Himself. Jesus directly identifies Himself with the poor, the needy, and the oppressed, all God’s children. By loving and helping others, we are serving Christ.

In the Judgment of Nations, those that failed to show love for their neighbor would be damned for all eternity. What a terrible surprise it will be, for many people, to learn that, in not showing love for their neighbors, they had rejected Jesus and His salvation.

This Gospel reading is so important. It allows me to know what Jesus is going to be looking for when He judges me. Do I show my love for Jesus through love of neighbor? This has always been the acid test of Christianity.

When Jesus walked the earth, He set the example. He spent much of His time ministering to those in need. He cured the sick, made the lame walk, the blind see, and He preached the good news of salvation to the poor. Jesus showed His love by being a servant to people.

He did the service and asks His disciples to do the same. As Jesus’ disciples, He asks us to serve our brothers and sisters. Jesus presented us with a simple example for Christian living.


I am surely doomed when Jesus judges me. But that’s just not true. Despite all my failures to show love to others, I still have great hope in Jesus’ salvation for myself.;

[/QUOTE]


***********************************************************


Please correct me if I am not understanding what you are saying, but it seems like you're promoting a salvation by works gospel. "Do this and you shall have eternal life".


Luke 10:25–29 (KJV 1900)
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

This passage must be understood in light of the whole of the scriptures, only then will we know how to understand it or any passage we come across. First, this person did not believe in who Jesus was, we know this because he approached him, not as LORD, but as merely a "teacher" (good master). Also, this man, like the pharisees tempted him, which the Bible teaches us, was for the purpose of accusing him if he should answer contrary to the law.

Now, when Christ answered "thou hast answered right; this do and thou shalt live", he was teaching us that those who want to justify themselves by keeping the law of God, have to keep all of it perfectly. And since no one can, because if you keep the whole law and offend in only 1 point, you are guilty of breaking even that which you have tried to keep.

James 2:8–11 (KJV 1900)
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

In other words, Jesus (as he always did) was speaking parabolically to this individual who was seeking to justify himself. The rest of the scriptures help us fill in the missing pieces so that we don't think for a moment that anyone could ever be saved by their obedience to the law. And obedience to God's law, is what the Bible calls a work of righteousness which we do.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Thus, salvation never came about by our own works. Instead, God first regenerated us, he first gave us a new heart and then causes us (he gives us the desire) to obey his commandments. So, obedience to God's commandments is our way of demonstrating our love for God for the work he has done in saving us. Obedience never did anything to initiate, nor secure our salvation.

 

[EddieRamos]

I think that depends on what your definition is of "believe". I don't think scripture supports the idea that belief without action will save anyone. When this is taken to its extreme and not just as a policy of the Lord we are told that 1 Cor. 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

Christ came to fulfill what was told to us in all the OT, Christ came to die for our sins. But when scripture tells us of the mission of Christ it does not say this, it says his mission was to tell us to repent, for the kingdom of God is near. That is what John the Baptist said it was and what is told to us in Matthew. Most of the gospels is about how to live in the world but have the kingdom of God your real home, the home you will have eternally.

Christ scolded about keeping the letter of the law and about men making rules they said was law and Paul goes on and on about law that many interpret as against law keepers, But a complete study of Paul shows he is speaking of the commands given to Jews before Christ came to make the fleshly commands spiritual. Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. This is only one example.

Over the years the book of James has been threatened, Luther wanted it taken out of scripture. James agreed with Christ that we are to act for the Lord when we accept His forgiveness.

James 1:22
Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselve.

If we believe in Christ, that Christ if God who can cancel out our sins with forgiveness, can we truly believe in Christ and have so little faith in what Christ tells us about repentance and living our lifes here that we act against it and act on the world's rules instead?

So many people gather up all scripture that could be interpreted as saying we don't have to follow Christ to be saved, Christ will save without our repentance of sin are not reading or hearing what Christ and even Paul tells them about it.

Please read my post #28 where I addressed this for someone else. Your questions or comments are welcome.

 

[EddieRamos]

To me, "belief" is beyond mere mental ascent.

Consider what James said in his epistle about believing: "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! (cf. James 2)".

Also, as has been noted above, Jesus asked why some people call Him "Lord" yet do not do what He says.

So assuming that belief is more than mere agreement with who and what Jesus is, then I would say indeed that all who believe WILL be saved.

To be clear, I am NOT saying that works save a person. Rather, I'm saying that belief in Christ goes deep into the heart.

Agreed.

 

[EddieRamos]

[QUOTE="Pilgrimshope, post: 4736997, member: 300996"]I’d say everyone who believes shall be saved

but I’d say what we believe is what matters of it’s the actual gospel of the kingdom belief is what brings all the repentance and obedience later from faith

belief is definately salvstion but believing false doctrines isn’t. We have to believe Jesus and his word his gospel brings everything else but many false ideas exist and many are led astray from truth by believing things other than the gospel we have to believe the things jesus taught and persevere in them

it’s not a matter of whether belief saves us it’s about what and who we believe believing Jesus brings true worship repentance , obedience and righteousness in deed and truth all because we accept and believe the truth

I understand I think what your saying a lot of people say I believe but they reject his teachings meant for belief and repentance and life


If someone believes in doctrine not supported...i.e.....baptism not required.....they are not born again and God will....spew them out of His mouth (quote).

Thank you for your reply. What we believe (doctrine) has no bearing on our regeneration from being wicked to becoming righteous. What we believe is evidence of whether or not we have truly been born again, or if we are like Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized, but to no avail. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice and the follow me. This means that upon regeneration (our new heart), that God's sheep have a desire for the truth and when they hear the truth being spoken, by anyone, that they will be led in that direction because they recognize the voice of the Truth.


John 10:27–28 (KJV 1900)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Rejection of God's true doctrines is rejection of God himself, and no person who has truly been born again will do that. Only those who trust in a work they have done to save them (like believe, repent, water baptism, ect) will reject God's truths.

 

[EddieRamos]

Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. (Acts 8:13) The rest of the story shows us that there was no genuine repentance and faith on the part of Simon the Sorcerer. So false professions are common, but you are trying to muddy the waters.
The only commandments by which men are saved are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31;17:30;20:21)

Really? Because I read repentance in Simon's words.

Acts 8:22–24 (KJV 1900)
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Clearly, Simon did not want to perish. And had we not been told by God, that what Simon did in believing and being baptized, actually did nothing to save him, everyone would have assumed that Simon just made a mistake (as a "new born again Christian") in asking to purchase the power of bestowing the Holy Spirit. I mean, it could have been an honest mistake, right? But because God does tell us that his spiritual condition had remained the same as before he believed, well then, now we have a problem with plainly declaring that everyone who believes will be saved, without further clarifying how one actually comes to believe the way that God requires it. And it's only after God has already regenerated them (please see post #14 on this subject).

So, you're correct, "The rest of the story shows us that there was no genuine repentance and faith on the part of Simon the Sorcerer.".
And you're also correct in saying, "So false professions are common....".

This was the point of my opening post. That not everyone who "believes" in Jesus Christ will be saved.

The only commandments by which men are saved are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31;17:30;20:21)

Here, you are teaching and believing in salvation by works. Anytime we attempt to become justified (made just) before God by keeping any of his commandments (and a commandment is a law), we then are required to keep the whole law perfectly and so condemn ourselves.


Galatians 5:1–4 (KJV 1900)
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised (if you seek to be justified by keeping the law), Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

In case you think that the law is only applying to the Old Testament law, that would also be incorrect. God calls his whole word, both Old and New Testaments, his law. Here God speaks of both laws.

James 2:8–12 (KJV 1900)
If ye fulfil the royal law (the O.T.) according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty (the N.T.).

This law applies to the command to repent and to believe, as they are both works. God helps us understand this in his word.

Jonah 3:5–10 (KJV 1900)
So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. 6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10 And God SAW THEIR WORKS, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Anyone who denies that repentance is not a work is denying the scriptures. Likewise with the command to "believe". God ties this command right along the command to "love". And to "love" is described also as a work because it is an obedience to a commandment of God, just as "believe" is also.

1 John 3:23–24 (KJV 1900)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, AND love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 Thessalonians 1:3 (KJV 1900)
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Hebrews 6:10 (KJV 1900)
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

I hope this helps.

 

[EddieRamos]

Some people are fooling themselves. Example, "Okay, I've said the 'Sinner's Prayer' and now am Saved! I was saved at 10am on June 15th. Now I can go and do anything I want. Nothing can take this salvation from me!" First of all, know that while the intention to say a sinner’s prayer is good, the prayer itself is not what saves you. It’s an oft-repeated prayer, but unfortunately in some circles, it’s held up as a sort of badge of honor, a guarantee of eternal life. It’s not a guarantee.

Once I say the Sinner's Prayer, I can go my own way, oblivious to the teachings of Jesus and His Gospel. This is a dangerous/dangerous teaching. Souls will be lost because of this teaching.

Correct, nothing we can say or do, initiated our salvation. Only God did that in his own time. Upon the hearing of the gospel, God applied his word to the hearts of those he chose to save and performed the work of salvation (regeneration) by removing their stony heart and giving them a living heart. This is salvation. This, in turn, caused a response in the lives of each person God saved to believe and to repent and to do all the other works that God commanded be done. Not for salvation, but because salvation had already been taken place in the heart of the individual.

Ezekiel 11:19–20 (KJV 1900)
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 36:25–27 (KJV 1900)
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[QUOTE="Pilgrimshope, post: 4736997, member: 300996"]I’d say everyone who believes shall be saved

but I’d say what we believe is what matters of it’s the actual gospel of the kingdom belief is what brings all the repentance and obedience later from faith

belief is definately salvstion but believing false doctrines isn’t. We have to believe Jesus and his word his gospel brings everything else but many false ideas exist and many are led astray from truth by believing things other than the gospel we have to believe the things jesus taught and persevere in them

it’s not a matter of whether belief saves us it’s about what and who we believe believing Jesus brings true worship repentance , obedience and righteousness in deed and truth all because we accept and believe the truth

I understand I think what your saying a lot of people say I believe but they reject his teachings meant for belief and repentance and life

We gotta accept and believe this

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Jesus teachings saves us if we believe he will draw us near but if we hear and reject there’s nothing to believe and bring us to repentance

we need to follow the spirit

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the term “believe “ has been misdirected by false doctrines believing right saves believing wrong leads astray and condemns

This has happened and is constantly happening

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭-2

it’s not that belief isn’t enough it’s what we believe that matters do I believe I need to repent and follow Jesus teachings ? That can save me if I do .

or Do I believe Jesus words don’t apply and I’m already saved and repentance isn’t for me and I can freely sin and inherit eternalLife because he died and rose ? That can destroy me if I believe it

we’re going to live by our true belief whether right or wrong so changing our belief conforming to Christ and his word is the answer

If someone believes in doctrine not supported...i.e.....baptism not required.....they are not born again and God will....spew them out of His mouth (quote).[/QUOTE]

huh ? Yeah the gospel teaches baptism not sure what your saying

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

like anything if we start out saying “ nah we don’t need to get baptized that’s irrelevant “ then a lot of doctrine isn’t going to make sense

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I’ve already said baptism isn’t important and doesn’t matter that isn’t going tommake sense or this

“Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so yeah I believe that we need to believe the gospel and get baptized for remission of sins in his name. But that’s my point of we believe the gospel Jesus preached we’re going to know we need to go get baptized for remission of sins

if I don’t believe right I’m not going to do the right things though . False doctrine is bad stuff ot starts out with an idea like “ we don’t need to get baptized “ and then when we learn further important revelation about baptism it does t make sense because we’ve already been led astray thinking baptism is nothing

Anyone who puts thoer fsirj on the things Jesus Christ taught and things they find in the gospel like baptism for remission Of sins home who just lets Jesus teach them is going to be equipped to do the right things in Gods sight obeying the gospel is his Will for us

 

[wattie]

Gotta be careful here... works have nil to do with the initial giving of eternal salvation.

Sure there are false believers who had no change of heart and mind, but works aren't part of the initial salvation.

We all know this through the book of Romans plus a myriad of other verses.

Eternal salvation will result in the fruit of the Holy Spirit... like patience, kindness, love, etc.. but these aren't put on works. They are the natural result of the Holy Spirit indwelling someone.

Simon believed AND was baptized... that would be very strong evidence he was indeed eternally saved. To be baptized the one baptizing would usually be convinced of the person being saved.

Just because they struggle with a sin or sins after salvation.. doesn't mean they aren't saved.. they are a spiritual babe.

 

[EddieRamos]

Simon didn't believe in Jesus, he was only looking to gain in power and wealth from a false beliefe..

Simon was a magician who was sort of a big shot in Samaria, popularly known as the “Great Power” (Acts 8:9-11). But then an actual big shot, St. Phillip, came through town and presented the Gospel, which put Simon’s tricks to shame. And then, significantly, Acts 8:13 tells us “Simon himself believed and was baptized.” Note that: Simon believes and is baptized. In Mark 16:16, Jesus says that “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.” So in Acts 8:13 Simon got saved. He didn’t just “seem to believe” or “appear to be saved,” we’re told he actually “believed and was baptized” by an author inspired by the Holy Spirit.
But then some even bigger shots came to Samaria, Peter and John. And they went around imparting the Holy Spirit upon people. And then Simon fell back to his old ways (Acts 8:18-24):

When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”​

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”​

The scriptures don't tell us what Simon believed in, so any type of assumption is just that, an assumption. The point here is, that we are told that Simon believed. Furthermore, to "seal the deal", he was baptized in water. Yet none of it was of any effect. The after Simon is told that he is still unsaved and that he will perish, Simon asks that they pray for him so that he wouldn't perish.

Acts 8:24 (KJV 1900)
Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

But if this account is not enough to convince us, then God provided another in in 8. Which is in my opening post. Where the Jews specifically believed on Jesus, yet again, this had no effect on their salvation. The point of this thread is to show that not all who "believe" will be saved. That is because many "believe" on their own terms and in their own way. But there is only one way, it's with a living heart (as opposed to a stony heart) that we must believe. Not to become saved, but because we have already been saved.

 

[EddieRamos]

If someone believes in doctrine not supported...i.e.....baptism not required.....they are not born again and God will....spew them out of His mouth (quote).

huh ? Yeah the gospel teaches baptism not sure what your saying

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

like anything if we start out saying “ nah we don’t need to get baptized that’s irrelevant “ then a lot of doctrine isn’t going to make sense

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I’ve already said baptism isn’t important and doesn’t matter that isn’t going tommake sense or this

“Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so yeah I believe that we need to believe the gospel and get baptized for remission of sins in his name. But that’s my point of we believe the gospel Jesus preached we’re going to know we need to go get baptized for remission of sins

if I don’t believe right I’m not going to do the right things though . False doctrine is bad stuff ot starts out with an idea like “ we don’t need to get baptized “ and then when we learn further important revelation about baptism it does t make sense because we’ve already been led astray thinking baptism is nothing

Anyone who puts thoer fsirj on the things Jesus Christ taught and things they find in the gospel like baptism for remission Of sins home who just lets Jesus teach them is going to be equipped to do the right things in Gods sight obeying the gospel is his Will for us

[/QUOTE]

Water baptism was always just an outward sign of having your sins washed away. It never, ever did anything for true salvation. It was only an act of obedience on behalf of those who God believed they were saved.

Now, let's look at what Jesus said:

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After reading this verse, we should ask an important question? Is there more than one type of baptism spoken of in the Bible? The answer is yes. So, since there is indeed more than one type of baptism in the Bible, where do we get the scriptural evidence to say without a doubt that water baptism is what Jesus had in mind? Some might say, "well, the proof is that Jesus and many other were baptized by water". But we have to remember that there was only ever one salvation plan for mankind, so you are ruling out every true believer in the Old Testament, you are ruling out everyone who became saved on their death bed and so on. Physical water baptism was always a sign which pointed to true baptism, which is the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 1:8 (KJV 1900)
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

This is the baptism that every true child of God since the beginning, experienced upon salvation. Circumcision like water baptism never did anything for one's salvation. They were both a shadow of the truth. Another example we can go to is the thief on the cross. One moment he was reviling Christ and the next, he was asking to be remembered.

Matthew 27:41–44 (KJV 1900)
Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. 44 The thieves (plural) also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Luke 23:39–43 (KJV 1900)
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This thief died on the cross without being baptized in water, yet he was indeed baptized as God required it. He was baptized by what the physical water pointed to, which is the washing away of our sins. He was baptized with the Holy Spirit. The thief believed and was baptized.

So, the Holy Ghost (salvation) came first, then one could have gone and do a water baptism as an outward sign. But water baptism never did anything for salvation itself.

Acts 10:47 (KJV 1900)
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received (past tense) the Holy Ghost as well as we?

If anyone were to think that water baptism somehow initiated or completed the salvation process, then that would be a mistake. Here, God gives us an example of those who were baptized into the name of Jesus (water baptism) but had not received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900)
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

I hope this helps.

 

[EddieRamos]

Simon believed AND was baptized... that would be very strong evidence he was indeed eternally saved. To be baptized the one baptizing would usually be convinced of the person being saved.

Just because they struggle with a sin or sins after salvation.. doesn't mean they aren't saved.. they are a spiritual babe.

The point of this discussion was to show that not all who believe will be saved. Simon was a great example of this and your words are a great help here. If God had not given us more information about something that no man today can see, which is someone's spiritual condition, we would have all concluded as you have. That Simon did exactly what was commanded by God for salvation and so, by all rights, he is to be declared to be saved.

I mean who would be able to say otherwise? Only God. God therefore gives us more information regarding Simon's spiritual condition, and it's not one of salvation.

Acts 8:20–23 (KJV 1900)
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Simon was still unsaved, no doubt about it. And we would have only known this if God was the one to give us this description of Simon's true heart. And his heart was described as anything but perfect, which how God describes those whom he has saved.

As far as your reasoning regarding the one who baptized him being sure of Simon's spiritual condition. I'm sorry, but this is taught nowhere in the scriptures. That is something invented by the churches of the world. Like I said, there is no person who can look inside the heart of another and determine whether they are truly saved. You could only take someone's word for it. This is precisely why water baptism never saved anyone.

John 3:7–8 (KJV 1900)
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so (inn like manner) is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[peldom10]

Thank you for your reply. What we believe (doctrine) has no bearing on our regeneration from being wicked to becoming righteous. What we believe is evidence of whether or not we have truly been born again, or if we are like Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized, but to no avail. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice and the follow me. This means that upon regeneration (our new heart), that God's sheep have a desire for the truth and when they hear the truth being spoken, by anyone, that they will be led in that direction because they recognize the voice of the Truth.


John 10:27–28 (KJV 1900)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Rejection of God's true doctrines is rejection of God himself, and no person who has truly been born again will do that. Only those who trust in a work they have done to save them (like believe, repent, water baptism, ect) will reject God's truths.

I have reported your quote of me as false and requested a retraction.

You are very wrong in doing that.

 

[peldom10]

This thread is about...OSAS...(once saved always saved) miss representation of scriptures.