Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

And the "water" they use is toxic because it creates a cage believers cannot see they are confined to.

This "cage" also creates so-called "fruit inspectors".

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't. We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

 

[Sully]

This "cage" also creates so-called "fruit inspectors".

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't. We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

Very true. When such a person refuses to realize they can't reel in their own flesh they will externalize their unreasonable requirements on others and thus feed the monster even more. All without even realizing what they are doing.

 

[dcontroversal]

This "cage" also creates so-called "fruit inspectors".

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't. We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

AMEN.....and even a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded.....imagine that......!

 

[Grace777x70]

Very true. When such a person refuses to realize they can't reel in their own flesh they will externalize their unreasonable requirements on others and thus feed the monster even more. All without even realizing what they are doing.

I agree...and the "fruit" of this has been obvious.

It comes from having a distorted view of the gospel and from bad teaching such as IMO - this whole lose your salvation doctrine which to me is a complete denial of the work of Christ on the cross and resurrection.

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious "sinless perfection in the flesh" Christian life that was being preached to them by some people or the works-based salvationists which are demanding we "do things for God in order to stay saved."...and if you don't - your loving Father and Lord will send you - His beloved children to hell and the lake of fire ( Not many come right out and say this - but that is the end product of their works-based teachings. )

These sincere Christians loved Jesus " in their heart" but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and were never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only change that is effective is from the true manifestation of the life of Jesus that is already in us - in our new creation and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I believe there are thousands of Christians like this but I also believe the Lord is bringing them back to Him - only this time it will be based on the true knowledge of Him and His love and grace for them.

The Lord is bringing His beloved back to Him. Let's not have the judgmental works-based older brother who doesn't know the heart and true nature of the Father to meet them at the door of our churches instead of having the Father meet them.

I believe in preaching the love and grace of God in Christ so that believers will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Christ.

We need to build the firm foundation in Him first before we bring on the warning scriptures because we can speak of them in the wrong light and if we are not built on the foundation of Christ Himself and His finished work on the cross - it can cause us to become ship-wrecked.

Speaking the warning scriptures to those with that firm foundation in Christ is needed and they should be heeded and then they become a blessing to us and keep us centered on Christ and His life and not on the flesh with it's deceitfulness.

Walk by the flesh in this life and we will bring destruction of some sort in all our lives - from living a homosexual lifestyle to outbursts of anger, to malice, to envy, to the slandering of others in the body of Christ. They are all in the same lists together.

Let's preach and teach the love and grace of God so that we can grow up in Christ.

 

[PHart]

So, in essence both "groups" of people are sinning and so they "should be of the devil" then because they are still sinning.

No.
One group is growing up into the stature of Christ, even if it is in a 'three steps ahead, two steps back' rate of progress. The other group is not growing up into the stature of Christ and is in 'three steps back, three more steps back' progress into the deepeining bondage of their sin. The important point is, the latter group is not believing in Christ. If they were they'd be in the first group.

One is either a "sinner" or a "saint". One is either "in Christ and Christ is in them" or not.

And the evidence of them being a saint and in Christ is whether or not they are growing up as a result of having God's grace apart from their works. Just as the lack of the absence of their growth signifies the lack of God's grace apart from works being in their lives. And so it is that works must accompany salvation, not to earn salvation, but as the expected and obligatory sign of the grace of God in one's life teaching them to say 'no' to ungodliness. The person who is not saying 'no' to ungodliness in even the most defeated of '70x7' relationships with God simply does not know God. John said so. The church is stroking the ears of the church by saying John and James and Paul are the liars, not the person who is teaching them that the unrighteous person does know God but has no lifestyle of reliance on God's grace to prove it.

What a horrible religion that is - living by 70x7 ( of course here in this context Jesus is talking about people forgiving others here in this passage and not God's kind of forgiveness that is the gospel message )

Horrible? We're lost if Christ does not forgive us 70x7 times. Christ exhorts his followers to forgive that way. He was not exhorting them in Matthew 18 to forgive as the world forgives. That's ridiculous.

The true gospel of the grace of Christ is life-changing when we know that we are free from sin because of Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

And that is why works are a required part of salvation. Not because that life change earns salvation, but because as you say, the grace of Christ is life changing. That's not a works salvation, but for some reason the church instantly thinks you're saying salvation is by works if you say that the grace of God is marked by a (growing) freedom from sin. The truly interesting part is if you say it, it ins't a works salvation. But if I say it, it is. That's the demonic blindness we've been saying rules this thread. To what extent a person is responsible for that blindness is between them and God, so I'm not judging anybody in that regard. I'm simply pointing out what's going on in this thread so we believers growing up into the grace of God solely because of our faith in the forgiveness of God can be careful to not be provoked to ungodliness by the work of demons among us.

 

[PHart]

As far as Hebrews 10:26 goes. All sinning is "willful" but "the" willful sinning talked about to the letter to the "Hebrews" is not what religion has said it is - especially works-based religionists.

Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.

Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.

Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.

Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.

Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.

Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.

The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9

There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.

Yes, this is one of the popular arguments to make Hebrews 10:26-31 not really mean what it says. But a simple read of the chapter shows us these Hebrews were very much saved believers being warned of what will happen if they stop believing and willfully return to their old lives:

Hebrews 10:32-39 NASB

​

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.​

 

[Grace777x70]

No.
One group is growing up into the stature of Christ, even if it is in a 'three steps ahead, two steps back' rate of progress. The other group is not growing up into the stature of Christ and is in 'three steps back, three more steps back' progress into the deepeining bondage of their sin. The important point is, the latter group is not believing in Christ. If they were they'd be in the first group.


And the evidence of them being a saint and in Christ is whether or not they are growing up as a result of having God's grace apart from their works. Just as the lack of the absence of their growth signifies the lack of God's grace apart from works being in their lives. And so it is that works must accompany salvation, not to earn salvation, but as the expected and obligatory sign of the grace of God in one's life teaching them to say 'no' to ungodliness. The person who is not saying 'no' to ungodliness in even the most defeated of '70x7' relationships with God simply does not know God. John said so. The church is stroking the ears of the church by saying John and James and Paul are the liars, not the person who is teaching them that the unrighteous person does know God but has no lifestyle of reliance on God's grace to prove it.


Horrible? We're lost if Christ does not forgive us 70x7 times. Christ exhorts his followers to forgive that way. He was not exhorting them in Matthew 18 to forgive as the world forgives. That's ridiculous.



And that is why works are a required part of salvation. Not because that life change earns salvation, but because as you say, the grace of Christ is life changing. That's not a works salvation, but for some reason the church instantly thinks you're saying salvation is by works if you say that the grace of God is marked by a (growing) freedom from sin. The truly interesting part is if you say it, it ins't a works salvation. But if I say it, it is. That's the demonic blindness we've been saying rules this thread. To what extent a person is responsible for that blindness is between them and God, so I'm not judging anybody in that regard. I'm simply pointing out what's going on in this thread so we believers growing up into the grace of God solely because of our faith in the forgiveness of God can be careful to not be provoked to ungodliness by the work of demons among us.

This belief is still denying the fact that both groups of people are sinning and you are ignoring this fact in favor of this man-made 70x7 thing of which Jesus is talking about amongst ourselves.

The gospel is not going back and forth asking God to forgive us of our sins. Christ has through His work alone produced the forgiveness of sins. It is the gospel message.

Check out the true gospel being preached by Peter and Paul in Acts 10 and Acts 13. These both accounts are word-for-word accounts of the true gospel being preached. It is vastly different then the modern evangelical view of the gospel.

The truth is that all works-based belief systems are living from the world's way of believing and trying to justify themselves. Including this work for salvation false doctrine which is what is being preached by some in this thread. it is an anti-Christ belief system that denies the work of Christ for what they do or don't do. This is getting the cart before the horse.

What is horrible is believing we need to ask for forgiveness when Christ has already forgiven us - we live by faith in Him not by our own works of "confessing in order to receive forgiveness".

Why don't we ask God to send the Messiah to die on the cross for us now? He said he would send someone to do that to take away the sins of the world. When you know the answer to that question - you'll see the answer to the forgiveness of sins one too.

The proper teaching and proclaiming of Christ and His work alone is the only thing that brings true transformation.

We must be transformed by the heart of God as seen in beholding Christ Himself as in a mirror in order to be a true representation of Him.

There is a false "mimicking" of this that can be done that replaces the life of Christ in us with what we do or don't do by our own self-effort. This is the essence of all works-based - self-righteousness belief systems.

This is not saying that His life will not produce good fruit but it speaks of the "origin" of things. Unless the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it. Notice that both groups of people are "building the house." One by the Lord and the other by what they are doing.

As I have said lot's of times - I am all for living by the spirit so that we don't do the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

We can just agree to disagree on some things too and rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to all of us...

I will address your Matthew 18 reference to forgiveness in my next post.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes, this is one of the popular arguments to make Hebrews 10:26-31 not really mean what it says. But a simple read of the chapter shows us these Hebrews were very much saved believers being warned of what will happen if they stop believing and willfully return to their old lives:

Hebrews 10:32-39 NASB

​

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.​

That scripture does not say that they were saved. It is talking about those Jews that hear the message of Christ and then shrink back to rely on the old system of temple sacrifices.

In fact it says the complete opposite - It says "we" - true Christians are not like those that shrink back to destruction ( by refusing to receive Christ's work for the forgiveness of sins )

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

 

[Grace777x70]

The parable of the unforgiven servant in which the kingdom of heaven "may be compared to".... Matthew 18

We need to read all scripture in context of the finished work of Christ and what He did on the cross. To say that our sins are not forgiven in the believer after they cross is NOT the gospel.

We will forgive because we are in Christ now and have His nature in us - we need to have our minds renewed to this truth and we will walk in it.

Matt 18:35 says that God will not forgive unless you forgive from your heart.

This was Jesus giving them the law. Moses 2.0 as it shows their need for a Savior in order for Jesus to create in them a new heart that loves and forgives just like their Father does in Jesus.

Love always forgives - it's in our nature now because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

We have a new heart now - so we can't really have unforgiveness in our hearts anymore which is why Jesus said ....

"If you do not forgive from your heart" ....this is to expose their need for a new heart which always forgives.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love now from our new hearts in Christ and our hearts cannot sin.

So Jesus's verse above in Matthew 18 would not apply to the person in Christ as it is impossible for them to have sin in their heart and to not forgive. We have the very nature of God inside us now - righteousness and holiness.

Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We need to preach and teach the true gospel of the grace of Christ so that the believer in Christ can grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus and walk out who they already are in their inner man - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

When we see Christ as in a mirror - we see true selves being reflected back and the Holy Spirit transforms us outwardly to reflect Christ that is in us now. 2 Cor 3:17-18

 

[PHart]

This belief is still denying the fact that both groups of people are sinning and you are ignoring this fact in favor of this man-made 70x7 thing of which Jesus is talking about amongst ourselves.

No, I made this clear. Both groups are sinning. The difference is, one is relying on the grace of God and growing up into righteousness, while the other group is not relying and Christ and waxing worse into their wickedness.

The gospel is not going back and forth asking God to forgive us of our sins. Christ has through His work alone produced the forgiveness of sins. It is the gospel message.

Actually it is.
John, in speaking to believers, says this about ongoing confession of sin:

1 John 1:9 NASB, 1 John 2:1-2 NASB

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
​

We see, both, ongoing confession of sin, and the fact that this forgiveness is of God, not of our works. This is not a works gospel. But it is being blinded perceived as one by many in the church today in favor of a 'dead faith' salvation that James says does not exist.

 

[PHart]

Love always forgives - it's in our nature now because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

We have a new heart now - so we can't really have unforgiveness in our hearts anymore which is why Jesus said ....

"If you do not forgive from your heart"

Your duplicity is astounding.

You believe the new nature that forgives and doesn't sin is what believers are signified by in contrast to the unbeliever, but when I say anything even remotely similar to this I'm accused of teaching a works salvation gospel. Interesting. Add to that you are now saying the believer does not sin in the way of 'other' sinners and is indeed distinguished from the 'other' sinners, the very thing I said but which you resisted.

 

[Grace777x70]

No, I made this clear. Both groups are sinning. The difference is, one is relying on the grace of God and growing up into righteousness, while the other group is not relying and Christ and waxing worse into their wickedness.



Actually it is.
John, in speaking to believers, says this about ongoing confession of sin:

1 John 1:9 NASB, 1 John 2:1-2 NASB

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
​

We see, both, ongoing confession of sin, and the fact that this forgiveness is of God, not of our works. This is not a works gospel. But it is being blinded perceived as one by many in the church today in favor of a 'dead faith' salvation that James says does not exist.

Perhaps this may help you or at least help others viewing the thread about 1 John 1:9. This scripture has been one of the most abused and mis-taught scripture there is.

This is the only scripture in the New Covenant that speaks of confessing sins "in order" to be forgiven and some have tried to use it to apply it to believers after coming to Christ and confessing that they do in fact have sins.

If this is "so important" - why didn't Paul speak about it even once to the Christians? ( Paul didn't speak about it because he preached and taught the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work )

I will speak about 1 John 1:9 in context with the rest of the chapter in my next post.

Knowing the true gospel of Christ really sets us free to walk free of sin and "be who we already are in Christ". Religion which is based on works-based/ self-righteousness actually stifles the life of Christ from manifesting.

 

[PHart]

That scripture does not say that they were saved. It is talking about those Jews that hear the message of Christ and then shrink back to rely on the old system of temple sacrifices.

In fact it says the complete opposite - It says "we" - true Christians are not like those that shrink back to destruction ( by refusing to receive Christ's work for the forgiveness of sins )

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

More duplicity.
Now you are saying the believer can not fall away. Yet you also say the fallen believer is still saved.

 

[Grace777x70]

Scripture isolated can cause all sorts of opinions and traditions to be put in place:

If we pay attention to the ..we and our and the you in 1 John chapter 1 we will discover some great truths. These may conflict with some our church teachings and traditions.



"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we (believers - namely John ) have looked at and ourhands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"

(I John 1:1).

In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.

"We( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics ) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our (believers ) fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).

This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ.

Second, he is saying thatthere are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. ( just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )

"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you ( unbelievers ):God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).

John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).


"If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).

In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.

"If we ( believers )walk in the light, as He is in the light, we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin" (verse 7).

In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin. The blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin because we are in Christ. This is always in present tense.

Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.

"If we ( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).

John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives.

He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.

However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

In other words, if the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness.

In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future.

Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!

We become a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4:24

"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).

Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.

The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.

However we can all learn from all scriptures including 1 John 1 - I especially love the truth of verse 7 - the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin because we are in Him.

 

[gb9]

You are right, spot on, except if what I am sharing is true.
Mary Magdalene washed Jesus's feet with her hair. Do you understand what that takes?
The bumblebees, the devotion, the insight, the honour, the gift of love.

If you cannot see the emotion here, or in Mary at the tomb, "Mary", "Master"
A loving relationship is bathed in feeling, it is who we are. If you want testimony about how
far you are from truth, you deny emotions are at the core. God loves with a passion, so do
we. No one dies for another because of facts!!!!!

let me explain this as simple as I know how- you saying that you " know " what people on this forum think, feel, or really even believe, is NOT TRUE. you can have your opinions on these things, but you do not KNOW.

don't confuse opinions with facts.

 

[JIMBO43]

More duplicity.
Now you are saying the believer can not fall away. Yet you also say the fallen believer is still saved.

Quite often in scripture we will believe one thing when its another... This we all for short of..


Why is this ?

Surely are creater would not of wanted us all to be confused like this...


Tell me who is the author of confusion ?............

Its no way to be confused and following a lie... the risk and implications are enormous ..... tell me would God risk this ?

Would Our creater risk His adopted family His blood being miss led like this ???......


We see that from diffrent perception of the bible one is truth one is not or there both miss truths "of a perception of a belief..


I was once told there are diffrent paths to the kingdom and for most there path will be diffrent anyhow dew to the fact that we all have diffrent professions and skills and abilities......... we will not all sing out of the same hymn book,,, you know like i might sing a song with passion and you may sing with joy...

dc may sing with just as much heart but in a deeper tone lol anyhows you get my drift...

So back to the Bible again and a gain we see diffrent perceptions from individuality........ is this a crime punishable by hell when we havent had the third return to say exactly what it means ??

Well lets look at this way when Satan can blind you and apear as a ngel of lite and will even claim to be God himself in the last days.... and many will be decieved by the lie.... who are we to sugest that people are purposely lieing with there perception ?


There is million upon millions of perception on life and beliefs The reality is The words of Satan him verry self our in our bible... You just have to look at the bible with the thought that it could mean something else...or the exact oppersite..


As of the end of a day a dictatorship catholic mathia where the first too translate from greek to english...

 

[Grace777x70]

Sometimes people mis-interpret what is really being said and other times they deliberately mis-represent what is said too, so I will say this to hopefully stop both from occurring.

Here is what I do when I sin and I am not saying that Christians do not confess sins to our Lord and Father.

I love to kneel quickly and tell my Father how I trust in Him. How what I did was wrong.

Sometimes I use the word sin and sometimes I don't. I think that is irrelevant. I run to my Father and tell Him how that His Son is my Lord and is my life and my righteousness - that Jesus' Blood has secured my redemption and forgiveness of sins. I confess what God says about me. I tell Him I love Him and trust in Him.

Since knowing this truth in Christ's work - I have lived a holier life than ever dreamed possible because His life is being manifested in and through me.

I could never go back to that religious system of self-effort and works-based believing, I found it such a poor substitute for "knowing Christ Himself and what He has already done for us"

I have not asked for forgiveness in order to be forgiven for quite some time now because I believe in what Christ has already done for me on the cross and resurrection....but I always talk with my Lord about what I do or don't do.

You know - He always loves on me and tells me He loves me and that He is my life and strength. Sometimes I have felt a warm liquid like feeling of pure love fall on me and I just sit there in His presence and weep. I can't move a muscle. He is so mighty in power yet His love and total acceptance is the most overwhelming aspect of His presence.


To me - all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. I am trying to find life and meaning from other sources than by what Christ has already given me.

This problem can manifest itself in the "works of the flesh".

To me - most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.

For example - If I steal something - that is a sin but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things.

The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use.

..what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character nor is it really my true nature now and what He has made me in Christ.

 

[UnderGrace]

Define your terms, what do we fall away from?

We cannot fall away from salvation/eternal life. We can fall away from fellowship with Christ, this is not loosing our salvation.

Salvation is being declared righteous and justified based on our act of faith, which is believing in and accepting the finished work of the cross for ourselves because we can never meet God's holy standard.

Because Jesus is perfect He gives us His perfection. There is no sin that can undo the perfection of Jesus.

Salvation is a declaration by God as judge, you have no authority to undo God's declaration and gift.

Rightly divide the word.

More duplicity.
Now you are saying the believer can not fall away. Yet you also say the fallen believer is still saved.

 

[JIMBO43]

Originally Posted by JIMBO43

saved yes recieved salvation no...

titus 3:5 says differently,

Your saved or your not saved, there is no in between

the message here eternity is somthing to come not something youve obtained yet ...
[h=1]Titus 3:5-8The Message (MSG)[/h] [SUP]3-8 [/SUP]It wasn’t so long ago that we ourselves were stupid and stubborn, dupes of sin, ordered every which way by our glands, going around with a chip on our shoulder, hated and hating back. But when God, our kind and loving Savior God, stepped in, he saved us from all that. It was all his doing; we had nothing to do with it. He gave us a good bath, and we came out of it new people, washed inside and out by the Holy Spirit. Our Savior Jesus poured out new life so generously. God’s gift has restored our relationship with him and given us back our lives. And there’s more life to come—an eternity of life! You can count on this.

 

[JIMBO43]

[video=youtube;ntuqTuc6HxM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntuqTuc6HxM[/video]