Not By Works
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Yes of course great miracle also performed by others.
Jesus said -
John 11:41 (Lazarus) - 41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
similar to:
Matthew 9:8 states: ‘When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.’
Jesus is implying that the Father healed on his request and also gave him authority.
Similar to others;
2 Kings 4:30-36 (Elisha raising the dead) - 33 So he went in and shut the door behind the two of them and prayed to the LORD.
2 Kings 13:20-22 - a dead body touched Elisha’s dead body and became alive.
As did Elijah
Jesus said -
John 11:41 (Lazarus) - 41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
similar to:
Matthew 9:8 states: ‘When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.’
Jesus is implying that the Father healed on his request and also gave him authority.
Similar to others;
2 Kings 4:30-36 (Elisha raising the dead) - 33 So he went in and shut the door behind the two of them and prayed to the LORD.
2 Kings 13:20-22 - a dead body touched Elisha’s dead body and became alive.
As did Elijah
(Joh 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
(Joh 17:4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
(Joh 17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(Joh 17:6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
First part of scripture here I can show is Jesus claiming to be with the Father before the world was made. If that isn't a claim to deity I don't know what is. You can't apply that to a believer.
Eternal life is also through knowing Jesus. That is also a claim to deity. Can't apply that to a believer. Knowing another christian.. they can't give me eternal life.
(Joh 17:4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
(Joh 17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(Joh 17:6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
First part of scripture here I can show is Jesus claiming to be with the Father before the world was made. If that isn't a claim to deity I don't know what is. You can't apply that to a believer.
Eternal life is also through knowing Jesus. That is also a claim to deity. Can't apply that to a believer. Knowing another christian.. they can't give me eternal life.
I had some interesting debates with JW regarding this and touching on the ‘I Am’.
What would be your response to their position;
Jn 17:3 – states ‘only true God’ who sent Jesus – [therefore not part of the Godhead]
Ps 3:3 - But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head. – [Glory given to others]
[Others per-existed in God’s plan] - Jeremiah 1:5 – Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, before you were born I set you apart, I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: - [That would imply the disciples now have ‘Glory’ too.]
John 8:54 - 54 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. – [Therefore, not equal to the father]
Few favorites of JW
Acts 3:26 - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 10:18 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Well.. to start with.. none of these verses stand alone by themselves. Put them in the paragraphs and chapters they are in.. get the time, place, subject etc.. and then show what they mean.
That is how any historical document is reasoned out. Do it with the bible also. Context context context..
For example.. Mark 10:18-- The disciples are calling him good.. but they don't know what they are saying. It is like Jesus is saying ... 'don't call me good when you don't really believe I am that GOOD.. that I am equal to the Father.' They were saying 'good' as in like 'good teacher'.. when Jesus is far more than that. Jesus would rather be called something else.. than called 'good'.
It's like calling the head of the school-- a 'pretty good teacher'. When they are above the teachers.
And 1 John 17:3--- Does not violate the Trinity. The trinity is not three gods.. it's one God in three expressions/essences/substances (I am not a fan of the word persons). A person can have a mind, body and soul.. be triune.. and they are made in God's image.
'Son' does not mean 'inferior' or 'born out of'.. in the biblical sense it is 'image' 'expression'.. because that is how Jesus is termed in the New Testament. The full expression/image of God.
That is how any historical document is reasoned out. Do it with the bible also. Context context context..
For example.. Mark 10:18-- The disciples are calling him good.. but they don't know what they are saying. It is like Jesus is saying ... 'don't call me good when you don't really believe I am that GOOD.. that I am equal to the Father.' They were saying 'good' as in like 'good teacher'.. when Jesus is far more than that. Jesus would rather be called something else.. than called 'good'.
It's like calling the head of the school-- a 'pretty good teacher'. When they are above the teachers.
And 1 John 17:3--- Does not violate the Trinity. The trinity is not three gods.. it's one God in three expressions/essences/substances (I am not a fan of the word persons). A person can have a mind, body and soul.. be triune.. and they are made in God's image.
'Son' does not mean 'inferior' or 'born out of'.. in the biblical sense it is 'image' 'expression'.. because that is how Jesus is termed in the New Testament. The full expression/image of God.
To those who would say OSAS is a license to sin:
(Rom 6:12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
(Rom 6:13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Rom 6:12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
(Rom 6:13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
why is there such a huge debate about working for salvation who believes that ?.
This once saved always saved thing, doesn't fall inline with what the scripture says it's not Good to boast about tomorrow but to say God wills my steps.
Maybe it would be a better title for this thread like God will always save me because God wills my steps, which is in scripture
The title once saved always saved it's self is wrong because it puts the emphasis on the individual and not God.
Then it preaches about not obtaining works for salvation in a self glorifying way, which adds more self glorifying to the title once saved always saved.
It's a bit of an insult that one to Christians it's no wonder it causes so much debate.
Maybe the reason why there's now a doctrine called you can forfeit your salvation, is it's stemed from people lecturing people with you can not work for your salvation from once saved always saved.
So once saved always saved doctrine in away has encouraged sin it's encouraged debating. Which leads to sin.
This once saved always saved thing, doesn't fall inline with what the scripture says it's not Good to boast about tomorrow but to say God wills my steps.
Maybe it would be a better title for this thread like God will always save me because God wills my steps, which is in scripture
The title once saved always saved it's self is wrong because it puts the emphasis on the individual and not God.
Then it preaches about not obtaining works for salvation in a self glorifying way, which adds more self glorifying to the title once saved always saved.
It's a bit of an insult that one to Christians it's no wonder it causes so much debate.
Maybe the reason why there's now a doctrine called you can forfeit your salvation, is it's stemed from people lecturing people with you can not work for your salvation from once saved always saved.
So once saved always saved doctrine in away has encouraged sin it's encouraged debating. Which leads to sin.
If God keeps salvation.. not us.. then once saved always saved isn't about the individual.. it's about Jesus. That is the whole point of the OSAS argument.. that salvation isn't dependent on us.. doesn't belong to the individual.. isn't kept by the individual or maintained by the individual.. but by Jesus.
That is the reason for the pushing against forfeiting salvation.. because that is about the individual.. it's about their life, their rights etc.. and not really about Jesus.
Aside from this.. scripture is clear that eternal life once given is everlasting. John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40. Romans 5:8.. plus a whole raft of verses supporting salvation being forever.
It is as you say.. that God wills your steps.. but also in the will.. stays with us when we fail.
Grace compels the believer to not sin. That is the point of what I am saying. OSAS compels the believer onto faithfulness.. because grace does!
That is the reason for the pushing against forfeiting salvation.. because that is about the individual.. it's about their life, their rights etc.. and not really about Jesus.
Aside from this.. scripture is clear that eternal life once given is everlasting. John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40. Romans 5:8.. plus a whole raft of verses supporting salvation being forever.
It is as you say.. that God wills your steps.. but also in the will.. stays with us when we fail.
Grace compels the believer to not sin. That is the point of what I am saying. OSAS compels the believer onto faithfulness.. because grace does!
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Ok 😊 maybe it would be better recieved if the title was changed from OSAS to G.,W,A,S,M God will always save me.
This Takes the emphasis of the individual, that way if people do put them selve first befor God,
God to will save them.
But isn't pleasing God really what' its is all about when people perform works.
This Takes the emphasis of the individual, that way if people do put them selve first befor God,
God to will save them.
But isn't pleasing God really what' its is all about when people perform works.
